A couple of announcements at the end of Mass

[Catholic2003]

(John J. Abbo and Jerome D. Hannan, The Sacred Canons, B. Herder Book Co., St. Louis, 1952,Vol.II,p.93)

While I would not claim that the opinions of learned commentators are declarations of the teaching Church, I cannot see how they can be simply brushed aside, as CIOWPD appears to do.

Faithful Catholics are allowed to disagree with John Abbo and Jerome Hannan.

 

[Catholic2003]

ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ORDIN.TXT

which states:

ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS: AN EXERCISE OF INFALLIBILITY

…

For our part, we rejoice in the liberating clarity of “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis”, and we do not fear to proclaim that John Paul II was exercising his prerogative of infallibility when he issued it.

…
– JAM

Faithful Catholics are required to disagree with “JAM”, as the Magisterium has taught that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis was not an exercise of ex cathedra teaching.

 

[fix]

Catholic2003:

Faithful Catholics are allowed to disagree with John Abbo and Jerome Hannan.

I never said differently.

Pending sufficient review of the historical and theological evidence at the official level,
where its implications may be fully considered, it seems premature to anticipate a
canonical framework whereby an office of deaconess would be established in the
Catholic Church. The CLSA report speaks at length of the graces of the sacrament of
Holy Orders bestowed upon the woman deacon. Given our understanding of the
sacrament, such consideration would seem pointless given the question of validity.

Prudence would dictate the manner in which to proceed with this topic. The classical
definition of a “debate” is one in which the burden of proof rests not with the status
quo, but with the innovator. It is a rule traditionally held dear in academia yet applied
so rarely in the Church today. Chesterton once said that “the object of opening the
mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid.” Our discoveries
in the pages of history must be viewed in light of the tradition and teaching of the
Church, whether we agree with them or not-if for no other reason because they were
viewed in such a light at the time…If one is free to speculate, then it is unlikely that the typical Catholic in the pew will
find women dressed in stoles and dalmatics as the ordinary officiants at weddings and
baptisms. It is more likely that the order of deaconess would be roughly equivalent to
(although it has never been the same as) what was once known in the West (and is still
known in the East) as -those steps of candidacy to Holy Orders, which
in 1971 were revised in the Latin church as the installed ministries of acolyte and rector…

ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/AROSEBY.TXT

 

[Brendan]

Catholic2003:

What pronouncement?

There is an infallible teaching that women can never be ordained to the priesthood.

There is no teaching at all, either fallible or infallible, on whether women could be ordained to the permanent diaconate in the future.

Faithful Catholics can not dissent from either fallible or infallible teachings.

C2003,

You seem to be operating under the assumption that the only infallible teachings are those issued under the ExtraOrdinary Magisterium ( Papal and Councilular decrees)

Both teaching of the Ordinary and ExtraOrdinary Magisterium are infalliable.

Read Lumen Gentium #25 for further clarification on the subject.

Neither O.S or *Humanae Vitae * are infallible teachings of the ExtraOrdinary Magisterium by themselves, but the teaching they articulate are infallible by the Ordinary Magisterium.

And as both priestly ordination of women and the use of contraception in the marital act were both infallible doctrines PRIOR to O.S or H.V, and did not rely on those documents for their doctrinal authority, so is the case for diaconal ordination of women. It is a consistent historical teaching of the Church, taught in unison by the Pope and his bishops.

It is therefore a definitive teaching by the Ordinary Magisterium and infallible.

 

[fix]

Catholic2003:

which states:

Faithful Catholics are required to disagree with “JAM”, as the Magisterium has taught that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis was not an exercise of ex cathedra teaching.

Can you support that argument? I assume you are claiming that the document is infallible by the ordinary magisterium as opposed to the extra ordinary magisterium?

In either event I think the piece in question makes a reasonable argument:

• “Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a
  matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church’s
  divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming
  the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no
  authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and
  that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s
  faithful.”*

Let us compare this with Vatican I’s definition concerning the exercise of
papal infallibility:

 ".* . . the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra, that is,
   when, acting in the office of shepherd and teacher of all
   Christians, he defines, by virtue of his supreme apostolic
   authority, doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by
   the universal Church, possesses through the divine assistance
   promised to him in the person of St. Peter, the infallibility
   with which the divine Redeemer willed his Church to be endowed
   in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals; and that such
   definitions of the Roman Pontiff are therefore irreformable
   because of their nature, but not because of the agreement of
   the Church." [First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ]*...

First, it is important to use the terminology of infallibility correctly.
It is not strictly correct to refer to a Church document as infallible. The
Pope, under certain conditions, is infallible; what he teaches under those
conditions is “irreformable”–that is, unchangeable because certainly true.

This distinction is significant because it leads directly to a second
clarification. Once we understand that it is the Pope and not the document
that is infallible, a subtle shift in our perception occurs. Instead of
looking for a particular linguistic formula in the text, and fearing that
something may not be infallible if the “proper” formula is absent, we look
in the text for language which indicates the Pope’s intention. Does the
language clearly indicate, by whatever words, that the Pope intends to
teach by virtue of his supreme authority on a matter of faith or morals in
such a way that binds the whole Church?

 

[Brendan]

Catholic2003:

was not an exercise of ex cathedra teaching.

See above, specifically Lumen Gentium #25. A teaching in not required to be ex cathedra to be infallible.

In fact, the vast majority of infallible teachings are not ex cathedra in origin.

 

[adrift]

The Magisterium has explicitly stated that the teaching against women priests is infallible

I guess an obvious question but one that has not been dealt with is “What constitutes the priesthood?” I believe that the Catechism defines it as

1554 "The divinely instituted ecclesiastical ministry is exercised in different degrees by those who even from ancient times have been called bishops, priests, and deacons."32 Catholic doctrine, expressed in the liturgy, the Magisterium, and the constant practice of the Church, recognizes that there are two degrees of ministerial participation in the priesthood of Christ: the episcopacy and the presbyterate. The diaconate is intended to help and serve them. For this reason the term sacerdos in current usage denotes bishops and priests but not deacons. Yet Catholic doctrine teaches that the degrees of priestly participation (episcopate and presbyterate) and the degree of service (diaconate) are all three conferred by a sacramental act called “ordination,” that is, by the sacrament of Holy Orders:

Now this would seem to support that the diaconate is open however, there is more …The Catechism does state that this is Holy Orders and only men can receive Holy Orders. Either the diaconate is part of the priesthood (Holy Orders) or it is not. If it is not, than women might be able to be a diaconess, If it is, than the question has already been settled.

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3.htm#ii

Catholic2003:

The Church has yet to make a pronouncement on the issue of the future possibility of ordination of women to the permanent diaconate. If it is not, than perhaps it is open to women but if it is, than the question has been settled.

So faithful Catholics are free to hold either side of this issue.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Catholic2003:

What pronouncement?

There is an infallible teaching that women can never be ordained to the priesthood.

There is no teaching at all, either fallible or infallible, on whether women could be ordained to the permanent diaconate in the future.

Faithful Catholics can not dissent from either fallible or infallible teachings.

Actually there was a statement from one of the Vatican Congregrations basically stating that after much discussion and historical investigation it has been determined that the Deaconate is also closed to women. This came out about a year or two after JPII’s document on the priesthood.

 

[Catholic2003]

Brendan:

You seem to be operating under the assumption that the only infallible teachings are those issued under the ExtraOrdinary Magisterium ( Papal and Councilular decrees)

No, I’m not. But it doesn’t matter anyway, as the Catholic faithful are not permitted to dissent from fallible teachings.

Brendan:

Both teaching of the Ordinary and ExtraOrdinary Magisterium are infalliable.

Read Lumen Gentium #25 for further clarification on the subject.

I’ve read Lumen Gentium and half a dozen other books on the subject.

Brendan:

Neither O.S or *Humanae Vitae * are infallible teachings of the ExtraOrdinary Magisterium by themselves, but the teaching they articulate are infallible by the Ordinary Magisterium.

The teaching of Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is infallible by the ordinary and univeral magisterium.

The teaching of Humanae Vitae may or may not be infallible via the ordinary and universal magisterium. The majority opinion of theologians is that it is not infallible (i.e., that the requirements for infallibility under the ordinary and universal magisterium have not been met), and the Magisterium has not spoken on the issue of Humanae Vitae’s infallibility or the infallibility of its teaching. Nonetheless, dissent from Humanae Vitae is not permissible.

Brendan:

And as both priestly ordination of women and the use of contraception in the marital act were both infallible doctrines PRIOR to O.S or H.V, and did not rely on those documents for their doctrinal authority, so is the case for diaconal ordination of women. It is a consistent historical teaching of the Church, taught in unison by the Pope and his bishops.

The Church has never taught one way or the other about the future possibility of ordination of women to the permanent diaconate. Before Vatican II revived the permanent diaconate, it wasn’t really an issue. Since Vatican II, the CDF has acknowledged that it is an open issue.

Brendan:

It is therefore a definitive teaching by the Ordinary Magisterium and infallible.

There is no teaching at all on the subject, so it doesn’t really make sense to ask if this non-existent teaching is infallible or not.

 

[Catholic2003]

adrift:

The Catechism does state that this is Holy Orders and only men can receive Holy Orders. Either the diaconate is part of the priesthood (Holy Orders) or it is not. If it is not, than women might be able to be a diaconess, If it is, than the question has already been settled.

The diaconate is a part of Holy Orders. The Catechism is correct that only men can (currently) receive Holy Orders. The footnote in the Catechism refers to canon 1024: “Only a baptised man can validly receive sacred ordination.”

However, the question as to whether canon law can be changed in the future to allow the ordination of women to the permanent diaconate is still open.

 

[Catholic2003]

Br. Rich SFO:

Actually there was a statement from one of the Vatican Congregrations basically stating that after much discussion and historical investigation it has been determined that the Deaconate is also closed to women. This came out about a year or two after JPII’s document on the priesthood.

I’ve been following this subject very closely, and I am not aware of any such statement. I’ve read the report on the historical investigation, but I’ve never heard of any statement about the future possibility of female permanent deacons. If you can provide a reference, I will follow it up.

 

[Catholic2003]

fix:

Can you support that argument? I assume you are claiming that the document is infallible by the ordinary magisterium as opposed to the extra ordinary magisterium?

Yes (to both questions).

From then Cardinal Ratzinger:

In this case, an act of the ordinary papal Magisterium, in itself not infallible, witnesses to the infallibility of the teaching of a doctrine already possessed by the Church.

Anyone who claims that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is ex cathedra is wrong, and the reasoning that they use to come up with such a conclusion is suspect.

 

[adrift]

Catholic2003:

The diaconate is a part of Holy Orders. The Catechism is correct that only men can (currently) receive Holy Orders. The footnote in the Catechism refers to canon 1024: “Only a baptised man can validly receive sacred ordination.”

However, the question as to whether canon law can be changed in the future to allow the ordination of women to the permanent diaconate is still open.

guess an obvious question but one that has not been dealt with is “What constitutes the priesthood?”

The priesthood as I understand it is in its fullness with the Bishop but the priesthood also resides in the priest and the deacon. If the diaconate is part of the priesthood than the question is settled. If it is not, what is it?

 

[Catholic2003]

adrift:

The priesthood as I understand it is in its fullness with the Bishop but the priesthood also resides in the priest and the deacon. If the diaconate is part of the priesthood than the question is settled. If it is not, what is it?

The sacrament of Holy Orders has three degrees: Bishop, Priest, and Deacon.

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis has confirmed the infallibility of the Church teaching that divine law itself prohibits ordaining women to the level of Priest. This also precludes the ordination of women to the level of Bishop.

However, the prohibition against ordaining women to the level of Deacon may be from divine law (and thus unchangeable), or it may just be from ecclesiastical law (and thus changeable). The Magisterium has not yet ruled on this question.

 

[fix]

Catholic2003:

Yes (to both questions).

From then Cardinal Ratzinger:

Anyone who claims that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is ex cathedra is wrong, and the reasoning that they use to come up with such a conclusion is suspect.

I agree that OS and HV are infallible by the ordinary magisterium. The argument on EWTN seems reasonable and I cannot see how it contradicts the faith. Some of it is nuanced. In the end it is infallible and as you said even if not it must be assented to.

Fourth and finally, the definition of infallibility at Vatican I does not
limit infallibility to those extraordinary cases in which the Holy Father
states he is formally defining a new dogma. Whether or not he would
call Ordinatio Sacerdotalis a dogmatic definition, the Pope has stated
infallibly a doctrine that has always been known, taught and believed by
the great body of Catholic faithful–namely that the Church has no
authority to ordain women. He has, in other words, irreformably formulated
a proper understanding of a limitation on the authority of the Church.

 

[Monica37]

Just wanted to post on organ donation. My beautiful 10 yr old daughter donated her heart, liver and lungs to 3 little boys. My priest was in the room when the doctor asked about it and gave a slight nod when I looked at him. It helps me to know that 3 mothers thanked God that day. I feel like we made the right decision and from everything I have heard from the church, it is not only acceptable but good. If it was wrong, I know that she was still welcomed into His presence.

 

[imroc]

Monica37:

Just wanted to post on organ donation. My beautiful 10 yr old daughter donated her heart, liver and lungs to 3 little boys. My priest was in the room when the doctor asked about it and gave a slight nod when I looked at him. It helps me to know that 3 mothers thanked God that day. I feel like we made the right decision and from everything I have heard from the church, it is not only acceptable but good. If it was wrong, I know that she was still welcomed into His presence.

Monica, I’m very happy for your answer. Thank you and may God bless you and your family.

 

[RedDeathsMask]

jimmy:

A priest can not get married until he is laisized. If he does he is automatically excommunicated.

I would just like to add that laiscization does not automatically mean an ex-priest can marry, the priest needs to obtain a discpesation first. Laicization basically means the Catholic hiearchy has allowed the priest to leave his ministry and has assimilated him into the laymen lifestyle. (Meaning that he is no longer allowed to present himself as a priest or celebrate the sacraments.) Only under the circumstance where death is close can a laicized priest celebrate the sacrament of Extreme Unction. A discpensation is where the Magesterium declares that the laicized priest is no longer bound to his vows, poverty, chastity, and obedience. Kind of like an annulment. Until the laicized priest or nun has been granted a discpensation, they cannot marry; because although they no longer practice their ministry, they are still bound to their vows.

 

[Catholic2003]

Br. Rich SFO:

Actually there was a statement from one of the Vatican Congregrations basically stating that after much discussion and historical investigation it has been determined that the Deaconate is also closed to women. This came out about a year or two after JPII’s document on the priesthood.

The closest I could find to this was the following:

When the historical investigation was nearing its end, some bishops started to allow women into their deacon formation programs, on the expectation that the Church would soon allow women to be ordained to the diaconate. However, the Vatican shut them down, saying that it would not be appropriate to include women into deacon formation programs unless and until the Church actually changed the canon law restricting ordination to men.

Edited to add this link to one of the Zenit articles about this.

 

[RedDeathsMask]

RedDeathsMask:

I would just like to add that laiscization does not automatically mean an ex-priest can marry, the priest needs to obtain a discpesation first. Laicization basically means the Catholic hiearchy has allowed the priest to leave his ministry and has assimilated him into the laymen lifestyle. (Meaning that he is no longer allowed to present himself as a priest or celebrate the sacraments.) Only under the circumstance where death is close can a laicized priest celebrate the sacrament of Extreme Unction. A discpensation is where the Magesterium declares that the laicized priest is no longer bound to his vows, poverty, chastity, and obedience. Kind of like an annulment. Until the laicized priest or nun has been granted a discpensation, they cannot marry; because although they no longer practice their ministry, they are still bound to their vows.

I would also like to add, that once a priest has been lacized, his involvement in the parish where he worships becomes limited. A laicized priest cannot:

Be a lector
Be a minister of the Eucharist
Be an altar boy
Teach religious ed to children or adults
Be a professor of theology at a Catholic University
Hold some type of position at the Parish (ex. parish secritary, member of the Parish Coucnil, and a Youth Minister.)

This is because allthough the priest has left has ministry, was granted a discpensation and is now married, his hands still bear the mark of the priesthood. All of the positions I mentioned above are part of the priesthood. He will not be able to perform these functions again unless he does not get married and decides to return to the ministry.