A date for the "Great Apostasy"

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I understand the point you’re making, but when discussing or trying to present Protestant beliefs, whether it’s on the apostasy of the church or the perpetual virginity of Mary, one has to cite the sources that they find credible, and that they use to support their positions. There’s a chapter devoted to Boettner’s Roman Catholicism in The Essential Catholic Survival Guide. The author of that chapter finds Boettner’s book to have had such great influence, to have been quoted by so many groups and authors, that he entitled that chapter The Anti-Catholic Bible. Say what you will about his scholarship or the truth or falsehood of his conclusions,** you still have to concede that what is found in that book is representative of much of the fundamentalist, Protestant world**.
JR,

You are correct in what you say…my point with Boettner…not to beat into the ground but for clarity…is he (other protestants), frequently, does not understand, nor makes an attempt to understand the Catholic faith…and it is available for free, on-line in the Catholic Catechism. Boettner is “horrific” in that he puts in writing multiple errors on church teaching and it’s clear he never checked his facts & assumptions. That’s why he is called “no scholar”. Unfortunately, many people, assume what is put to writing is true. So when Boettner says that the Catholic church teaches “A” …when in fact the church teaches, objectively “B”… there can be no dispute. I think we can both agree, that a “Scholar” or “Learned Person” is held to a higher standard than to put into writing that which is objectively not true & to have as a pattern, mis-statements or mis-representation of another’s view or position. “Scholarly” also assumes a level of research and effort that objectively, Boettner does not have.

On some topics & comments there is genuine theological disagreement on biblical text exegesis & the understanding of tradition.

In either case above, but especially the former, Boettner’s credibility is nil, he is simply factually wrong. And, Karl Keating is a must read…at a minimum, to “set the facts” straight. Happens all the time on CAF… both ways, for Catholic’s and non-Catholics. 🙂
 
Read Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating then comment where…any where, that Boettner has it right.
Just wanted to add my support for reading “Catholicism and Fundamentalism”. You are correct, it is a must read; best apologetics book I’ve found. 👍

Way to go Karl!
 
Yes…if you are to be truthful and fair, JR, you need to share with your Protestant friends the truth of our faith.

If you find the time, please give me your take on Ecclesial Deism on Called to Communion…that addresses the Restorationists, Mormons and certain Baptists…all trying to find when the apostasy began.

Hint: the daily Sacrifice of the Mass…is that which unites and affirms and fulfills every phrase of Scripture.
 
If you haven’t read it, please read “Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist.” It’s a wonderful book.
 
What exactly do you mean? What is your evidence that you are using to say that leaders of my faith are liars?
As stated in my previous post, the information comes from the book “An American Fraud: One Lawyer’s Case Against Mormonism” by Kay Burningham.
Do the leaders and apologists that you are referring to know that they are liars?
From the vast amount of documentation included in the book, it appears to be the case.
What? Where are you getting that from? That certainly is false (and I would know, as a leader in my local congregation). I have never been told not to read things that aren’t “approved” by the Church (where can I find this “approved” reading list?), nor have I told anyone anything like that in my capacity as a leader. Indeed, we have various forums, websites, articles, and books that review, respond to, and critique the writings of LDS critics, including one organization affiliated with Church-owned Brigham Young University. That would be odd if what you say is true.
I am glad to hear that you are open to reading all material, even that which may be considered anti-Mormon.
I would like to send you a copy of the book I am referring to. If you pm me, I will send you a copy from Amazon.
Firstly, this is from your own perspective. I assume you are aware of the many articles, books, etc that present the “facts” of the Catholic Church and many of her leaders and members throughout various periods of time that put them in a “very negative light”. I assume you are aware of the “facts” by various scholars that “shed great doubt” on the Bible. How do you respond to those “facts”?
I would respond to those facts by saying that Jesus promised His Church would never fail despite human efforts to bring it down.
The actual fact of the matter is that LDS scholars and apologists are well aware of the critical perspective of Joseph Smith, the Church of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, etc. Indeed, they are readily discussed in various settings.
Also, I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt. It could just be that the LDS leaders, apologists, etc. actually believe what they say they believe. I doubt they accept the critical (and/or “anti”, as there is a difference between the two) perspectives as “facts” and then decide to lie about the “truth”.
Do you give the Catholic Church the benefit of the doubt? You claimed there are many articles tthat put the Church in a negative light, but do you believe them? Do you pass this information along to others?
Also, as far as B.H. Roberts, what do you mean by ignored?
(from page 238 of the book)

In his introduction to the first (1985) edition of Roberts’* Studies of the Book of Mormon*, University of Utah history professor, Brigham D. Madsen confirms that Roberts spent most of two days with the LDS General Authorities in 1922. In response to Roberts’ detailed presentation of problems with the origins of the Book of Mormon and plea to the Brethren to come clean with its probable historical source, “…they merely one by one stood up and bore testimony to the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon.” Afterward, Apostle Richard R. Lyman asked Roberts “…if there were things that would help our prestige and when Bro. Roberts answered no, he said then why discuss them.”
I hear Evangelicals make similar arguments about the interpretations Catholics are being “fed”.
Okay.
What “Mormon definition”? That phrase seems to be poisoning the well. The definition provided for “aeon”/aion was not a “Mormon definition” (whatever that means). The definition provided said it can mean “eon”, epoch", “age”, or “period”. Various Biblical translations use “age” as the translation. Saying that Christ would be with the Church until the end of the “age” is certainly a valid translation, and has nothing to do with a “Mormon definition” (you quoted wikipedia earlier which even discusses the use of “aeon” in the verse in question, correct?). The question then becomes, what is the “age” being referred to. So no, words are not being “spun” to “trick” people into believing our interpretation of the Bible, anymore than Catholics “spin” words to “trick” people into believing the Catholic interpretation of the Bible, or so many Evangelicals claim.
jrtrent provided a definition of aeon that he said explained the Mormon position. You might want to read those posts if you haven’t already done so.
 
If you find the time, please give me your take on Ecclesial Deism on Called to Communion…that addresses the Restorationists, Mormons and certain Baptists…all trying to find when the apostasy began.
I’ve read through it once and find it a very interesting article (not surprisingly, I find I hold views similar to some the author held prior to his conversion to Catholicism). I was planning to go through it a second time this morning, but all I got when trying to access the website is a page telling me there are connection problems. I’ve got to leave shortly and will be out of town this weekend, but I’ll give it further attention as soon as I can. I have a feeling it’s something I’ll need to go over several times, along with further study and prayer.
 
The actual fact of the matter is that LDS scholars and apologists are well aware of the critical perspective of Joseph Smith, the Church of Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, etc. Indeed, they are readily discussed in various settings.
LivingWaters - I realize I did not answer this in my post.
Yes, it appears with the use of internet among Mormons they are now addressing these issues.
This article (edited for length) is about Jensen’s (LDS church historian) visit to USU and his candid responses to those in attendance.
What really stands out to me is that the daughter of the LDS church historian didn’t know JS was a polygamist and that the LDS church “has a very progressive research and information division, with tremendous public opinion surveyors.”

(**bold **mine)
Special report -Mormonism besieged by the modern age
By Peter Henderson and Kristina Cooke
Mon Jan 30, 2012 7:59pm GMT

SALT LAKE CITY, Utah - A religious studies class late last year at Utah State University in Logan, Utah, was unusual for two reasons. The small group of students, faculty and faithful there to hear Mormon Elder Marlin Jensen were openly troubled about the future of their church, asking hard questions. And Jensen was uncharacteristically frank in acknowledging their concerns.

Did the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints know that members are “leaving in droves?” a woman asked.
“We are aware,” said Jensen, according to a tape recording of his unscripted remarks. “And I’m speaking of the 15 men that are above me in the hierarchy of the church. They really do know and they really care,” he said.

“My own daughter,” he then added, “has come to me and said, ‘Dad, why didn’t you ever tell me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?’” For the younger generation, Jensen acknowledged,** “Everything’s out there for them to consume if they want to Google it.” The manuals used to teach the young church doctrine, meanwhile, are “severely outdated.”**

THE RESCUE

With defections rising, the church has launched a program to staunch its losses. The head of the church, President Thomas Monson, who is considered a living prophet, has called the campaign “The Rescue” and made it his signature initiative, according to Jensen. The effort includes a new package of materials for pastors and for teaching Mormon youth that address some of the more sensitive aspects of church doctrine. “If they are not revolutionary, they are at least going to be a breath of fresh air across the church,” Jensen told the Utah class.

Not since a famous troublespot in Mormon history, the 1837 failure of a church bank in Kirtland, Ohio, have so many left the church, Jensen said.

“Maybe since Kirtland, we’ve never had a period of - I’ll call it apostasy, like we’re having now,” he told the group in Logan.

Then he outlined how the church was using the technologies that had loosened its grip on the flock to reverse this trend.

**“The church has a very progressive research and information division, with tremendous public opinion surveyors,” he said. Among other steps, it has hired an expert in search-engine optimization to raise the profile of the church’s own views in a web search.
**
Researchers note a rising tide of questions from church members about the gospel according to Joseph Smith’s The Book of Mormon, the best known of the Latter-day Saints’ scriptures. Over the years, church literature has largely glossed over some of the more controversial aspects of its history, such as the polygamy practiced by Smith and Brigham Young, who lead the Mormons to Utah.

Moreover, church leaders have taught that the Book of Mormon is a historical document – not a parable – so the faithful are startled to find articles on the internet using science to contradict it.

“It’s a different generation,” Elder Jensen told the group in Logan. “There’s no sense kidding ourselves, we just need to be very upfront with them and tell them what we know and give answers to what we have and call on their faith like we all do for things we don’t understand.”
 
What I find funny is that the lds church should have just been upfront about the mistakes it made and moved on. The past is the past. Sure the C.C has had its horrible times but it happens to all churches. But now it will be harder than h**l for the lds church to change its stance on its history and bring new members in (well, in the U.S at least).
 
jrtrent…yes the writings on CalledtoCommunion are deep. Many former protestant ministers have become Catholic and are contributing alot to this site.

And Yes, you do have to go back and reread…I also find it hard to read online materials and still prefer using a book.

Glad you have gone through it and look forward to your take.
 
Lighthouse has an iphone App that has the darmatized Bible AND you can download lots of talks…including THIS one…
Tex, I did not know this. Terrific. Now all I need is for Pie to give me the password to download to our Ipad. :rolleyes:
 
In light of the fact that the LDS church posted one of the largest gains of all Christian denominations in the USA–and that most of the top 25 Christian denominations either posted no stats or negatives in their membership(19 of 25 largest “churches” in one poll) --that is a possibility for most other top 25 Christian denominations in the USA also.
But mormon numbers are being looked at much closer now since the numbers in Brazil were over reported by at least 1 million.

Also, there is a statement from the head of the membership dept (he’s gone now) stating mormonism is losing people at an alarming rate.

If, Brazil over reported by 1 million, how many others did?

Read here and here

If the mormon church was going to change the way things were calculated, don’t you think they should have made that know PRIOR to the report being issued.

Read about losing members here

What amazes me the most is how much back peddling, and damage control the mormon pr department always has to do. Similar to the way they “corrected” Boyd Packer’s hate speech at conference.

Either the PR dept needs fired because of having to do so much damage control, or they need big raises for what they have to put up with. 🤷
It appears the mormon church is bleeding enough members, that band aids are now being used.

" The Church makes no statistical comparisons with other churches and makes no claim to be the fastest-growing Christian denomination despite frequent news media comments to that effect. Such comparisons rarely take account of a multiplicity of complex factors, including activity rates and death rates, the methodology used in registering or counting members and what factors constitute membership. Growth rates also vary significantly across the world. Additionally, many other factors contribute to the strength of the Church, most especially the devotion and commitment of its members."

Appears to be an official source to me. If not official, at least a legitimate one. Read it here.
 
It appears the mormon church is bleeding enough members, that band aids are now being used.

" The Church makes no statistical comparisons with other churches and makes no claim to be the fastest-growing Christian denomination despite frequent news media comments to that effect. Such comparisons rarely take account of a multiplicity of complex factors, including activity rates and death rates, the methodology used in registering or counting members and what factors constitute membership. Growth rates also vary significantly across the world. Additionally, many other factors contribute to the strength of the Church, most especially the devotion and commitment of its members."

Appears to be an official source to me. If not official, at least a legitimate one. Read it here.
It takes a while for the Mormons sitting in their pews to keep up with what comes out of SLC. “Fastest growing religion” has always been something that Mormons trumpet because they see it as a sign of Mormon prophecy being fulfilled.

When outsiders start looking too closely at the signs, and the criticism becomes loud enough (ie, bad for public relations), they back off and act like no one ever said anything like that, and if they did, it was their own personal opinion.

Seriously cracks me up.
 
I read of a Mormon prophesy that some day a Mormon would save the Constitution.

I voted for Mitt Romney.
 
About this apostacy. I read here on these forums somewhere that the lds believe that Peter and 2 other Apostles still walked the earth or something like that. If the lds believe that, how would there be an apostacy?
 
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