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TexanKnight
Guest
partly right.
They believe it is the Apostle John and the Three Nephites.
yeah…a headscratcher. I guess God pulled his authority and Priesthood from them
so that begs the question of why they were even here, then
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They believe it is the Apostle John and the Three Nephites.
yeah…a headscratcher. I guess God pulled his authority and Priesthood from them
so that begs the question of why they were even here, then
S
SteveVH
Guest
It also begs the question of why they would still be here. What are they doing? What is their purpose? I see no earthly (or heavenly) reason why they would still be here only to hide out from the rest of us.
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kimg901
Guest
A headache is what it gives me. If John never left (and the Holy Spirit with him) then of course no apostacy. That right there is proof enough to say there never was a falling away. Of course people were apostate during the persecutions and even now, but our Church is still well and kickin!!!
K
KathleenGee
Guest
To even imply the faith fell away after the last apostle doesn’t make sense.
What this idea implies is a faulty understanding of the nature of God Himself. Likewise, after even listening this am to a bishop speak about the Eucharist and the Last Supper…the Apostles were priests then at the Last Supper.
At the Last Supper, Christ said, ‘Do this in memory’…the Be’Kaa…the Memorial is a rite of Jewish practice.
At the Last Supper, Christ was establishing His form of worship, the Memorial, the Daily Sacrifice of the Mass. The Memorial doesn’t end with the last apostles…it is perpetual.
We must worship God in the way He wants, as in its beginning explanation in Exodus. Worship is fulfilled in the Memorial of the Mass with the chosen and consecrated priesthood in the order of Milchezidek, Christ alone the High Priest.
The Memorial transcends marriage, polygamy, sex in heaven.
Entering into the Memorial, we encounter Jesus Christ Who stands before the Heavenly Father, wounded but triumphant, over sin and death, and the source of our new life in Him.
It is sad people cannot get beyond ego and carnal needs.
What this idea implies is a faulty understanding of the nature of God Himself. Likewise, after even listening this am to a bishop speak about the Eucharist and the Last Supper…the Apostles were priests then at the Last Supper.
At the Last Supper, Christ said, ‘Do this in memory’…the Be’Kaa…the Memorial is a rite of Jewish practice.
At the Last Supper, Christ was establishing His form of worship, the Memorial, the Daily Sacrifice of the Mass. The Memorial doesn’t end with the last apostles…it is perpetual.
We must worship God in the way He wants, as in its beginning explanation in Exodus. Worship is fulfilled in the Memorial of the Mass with the chosen and consecrated priesthood in the order of Milchezidek, Christ alone the High Priest.
The Memorial transcends marriage, polygamy, sex in heaven.
Entering into the Memorial, we encounter Jesus Christ Who stands before the Heavenly Father, wounded but triumphant, over sin and death, and the source of our new life in Him.
It is sad people cannot get beyond ego and carnal needs.
R
RocketRM
Guest
… and that is the foundation which Mormons have built their ‘church’ on.
J
jrtrent
Guest
Well, I’ve decided it’s too long an article to try to go through point-by-point here, plus there are associated articles as well as useful posted comments to look at. I found an interesting response by Keith Mathison that I think covers several of Bryan Cross’s points very well from a Protestant perspective. That article can be found here:
turretinfan.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/response-to-bryan-cross.pdf
Here are a few excerpts:
My personal take on Bryan Cross’s work is that I’m simply not trying to accomplish what he and Mohler are looking for, namely a way to say that Mormons are wrong, or that this council got it right while another one didn’t. At this point, based on the scrupulous, yet divergent, exegetical studies found in systematic theologies by men of various theological backgrounds, I don’t think I can know with certainty if infant baptism is correct, or if Mary was ever-virgin, or to what extent there is a “real presence” of Christ in the Lord’s Supper, or the particulars of many other disputed points of doctrine. I’m also at a point of believing that it doesn’t much matter. A book that interests me very much is Generous Orthodoxy by Bryan McLaren–a book which got quite an unfavorable review from, I believe, the same Dr. Mohler that Bryan Cross took to task in his article on Ecclesial Deism.
I haven’t received my copy yet, but McLaren seems to want to emphasize the things Christians hold in common rather than squabble over differences in doctrine that seem to have no definitive answer. One sample I saw in a book preview reads, “Protestants have paid more attention to the Bible than any other group, but sadly, much of their Bible study was undertaken to fuel their efforts to prove themselves right and others wrong . . . How many Protestants can’t pick up the Bible without hearing arguments play in their heads on every page, echoes of the polemical preachers they have heard since childhood? How much Bible study is, therefore, an exercise in missing the point?”
The point for me, and I may be wrong, is to rejoice in God’s goodness to us wherever I see it, whether from a Catholic:
“Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, Christians are “dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus” and so participate in the life of the Risen Lord. Following Christ and united with him, Christians can strive to be “imitators of God as beloved children, and walk in love” by conforming their thoughts, words and actions to the “mind . . . which is yours in Christ Jesus,” and by following his example.”
Or a Mormon:
“Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called the Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, He is very literally our Savior and Redeemer.”
Or from anyone else who has found life in Christ.
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kimg901
Guest
@Trent. I have seen what you posted but its not enough to just believe in Christ. We have all heard someone say “God doesnt care about religion”. But He in fact does. He sent His only Son to die for us and to set up His Church for us to follow. Now that God did this for us, the devil started working harder to get us away from Christ by causing doubt within us and around us. The devil gave man a way to fall further away from Christ by letting man start their own churches for whatever reason(s). The reason we here at CAF fight so hard with all other religions is because we care for your souls and what happens to them. God put this gift out there for all peoples and its up to each one of us to grab it and cherish it. There is not or will there ever be another “True Church” besides the Catholic Church. The Church God gave us.
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pablope
Guest
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pablope
Guest
Just one more thing/thought…from this comment you posted:
Isn’t this precisely what Keith Matthison is doing with Bryan Cross’s article…trying to prove Cross wrong…and arguing about who is right and who is wrong…instead of looking at another perspective…and learning and growing from what Cross wrote?
J
jrtrent
Guest
I appreciate and respect your belief with respect to the Catholic Church, but, like every non-Catholic on this forum, I don’t share that belief–if I did, I would, of course, *be *Catholic.
It’s possible that my net is too wide, seeing as Christian people who may fall outside its boundaries due to doctrinal error, but at this point, I’d rather err on that side than on what I’ve so often encountered in various circles. One example was my going along to help supervise a group of Baptist children on a snow-boarding/inner-tube riding day-trip. The property we were going to was owned by a Presbyterian church who was gracious in letting other groups use their facility on days when their own church didn’t have something scheduled. On the way, a little girl on the bus commented, “It’s really nice of the Presbyterians to let us use their property today; it’s too bad they’re all going to Hell.”
I prefer to honor, respect, and trust in the salvation of all those who hold the Gospel.* The Matthew Henry concise commentary has this to say with respect to Luke 9:49-50, “If ever any society of Christians in this world, had reason to silence those not of their own communion, the twelve disciples at this time had; yet Christ warned them not to do the like again. Those may be found faithful followers of Christ, and may be accepted of him, who do not follow with us,” and added in the parallel passage in Mark, “If sinners are brought to repent, to believe in the Saviour, and to live sober, righteous, and godly lives, we then see that the Lord works by the preacher.” I’ve seen this good result occur in many different denominations, and so don’t want to disrespect any of them.
*One definition of which is, “We are accountable to the God who created us. We have sinned against that God and will be judged. But God has acted in Jesus Christ to save us, and we take hold of that salvation by repentance from sin and faith in Jesus.”
J
jrtrent
Guest
Yes, which is why I mentioned that I don’t share that goal of arguing about who’s right and who’s wrong, whether it’s being modeled by Cross, Mohler, Matthison, or whomever. It would be nice if all three could see the others’ perspectives, learn and grow from the process, and perhaps at some point move past that need to argue.
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livingwordunity
Guest
The great apostasy has started in this generation with the cultural secularization of nations and subsequent preference for Islam over Christianity and relentless attacks against the Catholic Church and traditional marriage by an alliance of the most powerful nations on earth.
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Porknpie
Guest
JR said
[/quote]
Then Christ’s words and all matters of faith and morals don’t matter either.
- baptism…doesn’t matter
- receiving the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, doesn’t matter
- getting married, doesn’t matter…just live together
- confession ones sins…doesn’t matter
- abortion, doesn’t matter…murder the most innocent
- homosexual relationships, don’t matter, we can all become homosexual and the human race will become extinct in less than 100 years
- the pill, doesn’t matter…doesn’t matter that it acts as an abortificient destroying human life
- euthanasia, why not, if we can so easily kill the innocent, why not decide when life should end
- the written Word of God…doesn’t matter…l.have 66 books when the complete canon, Gods written Word is 73.
- once saved, always saved…hope that it doesn’t matter.
[/quote]
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LongJourney
Guest
Sometimes it takes time. It is interesting that the more we argue, the more
stubborn the opposition gets. There should always arrive the time when we are ready to let go and move on. Mormonism is not all that is wrong with the world; neither is it the worst thing that is wrong with the world. Both sides have become obsessive-compulsive with the continued debate, and more set in their beliefs. Either Mormonism is wrong, or Catholicism is wrong. Let God do the rest of the work.
J
jrtrent
Guest
That’s rather a strange conclusion to reach. I had written, “At this point, based on the scrupulous, yet divergent, exegetical studies found in systematic theologies by men of various theological backgrounds, I don’t think I can know with certainty if infant baptism is correct, or if Mary was ever-virgin, or to what extent there is a “real presence” of Christ in the Lord’s Supper, or the particulars of many other disputed points of doctrine. I’m also at a point of believing that it doesn’t much matter.”
In past posts, I named the particular writers I had in mind, such as the systematic theologies of John Gill, James P. Boyce, Francis Pieper, Louis Berkhof, and Charles Hodge, or study bibles by John MacArthur and R. C. Sproul, or other authors of commentaries and books from various religious backgrounds. All of those men took the Bible seriously; look at any of the confessions these men from different church affiliations came from and you’ll find words such as “Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.” All of these men teach that Baptism matters, that it’s commanded in scripture to be performed, but they disagree with what the Bible teaches concerning the mode, meaning, and fit subjects. They all agree with scripture that Mary was a virgin when Christ was born, but they may disagree about whether she continued to be a virgin after that. They all agree that communion is important, another clear commandment from scripture, but they come to different conclusions, after careful study of scripture, about just what is or is not occuring in it. That’s a long way from saying that faith and morals don’t matter.
I conclude that these, and other, doctrinal disputes are not solved by study of the scriptures–each can show Biblical justification for their various positions. Therefore, it doesn’t matter to me which of these positions various people hold. I’m not going to say they are non-Christians or unsaved because of it. To repeat Matthew Henry’s quote, we see that the Lord is working through a preacher, whether they’re in our own denomination or not, “if sinners are brought to repent, to believe in the Saviour, and to live sober, righteous, and godly lives.” And that’s also a long way from saying that faith and morals don’t matter.
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
I have an attorney friend who has spoken nationally for years. She says satan will say 99 truths in order to slip in 1 Lie!!! So if any particular sect believes lies then the window dressing is just that; sad part is they have not done the research from the beginning.
Culpability seems to be the issue - how culpable are they in not pursuing the Truth is God’s call & His only. I would guess the people in the know, who want to leave for fear of shunning, losing job, home, family & don’t are in a horrible quandary. They need our prayers that’s for sure. Now & then I run across stories on the IN where people say they were so afraid to leave - sad.
Our best friends where in a cult for over 25 years. Finally, their eyes were opened but not only did they leave once, but TWICE!!! I said how could you not put 2 + 2 together the first time you heard this group’s pitch? I think it was due to a lack of theological education & they were young adults at the time.
Funny getting back to the Apostasy, sects all have their own “version” of it! Disunity for sure. Unity is one of the 4 “transcendentals”. Jesus prayed we would all be ONE!
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blindsquirrel
Guest
1Timothy 1 - 3
I feel describes the catholic church.
The mormons, I feel, don’t think jesus dying was enough.
I feel describes the catholic church.
The mormons, I feel, don’t think jesus dying was enough.
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KathleenGee
Guest
BlindSquirrel…what are the Catholic Church’s false doctrines?..what doctrines in Timothy do you think Timothy is talking about?
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blindsquirrel
Guest
Marriage & meat to be a sign to what church this is talking about.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Not sure what you mean or where you are coming from.
Please clarify, thanks.
Please clarify, thanks.
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