P
Porknpie
Guest
Barber says the similar…the Book of Revelation being a summary of all the writings and written in describing the fall of Jerusalem. It’s prompted me to start reading the War of the Jews by Josephus.
- Status
T
TexanKnight
Guest
I believe that even sadder than the idea that there was an Apostasy is the fact that people actually want to believe it.
How sad to believe God would actually turn His back on us, wirhdraw His authority, and leave us floundering for over 1000 years. Would a God who loves really do that?
As a father, I could never do that to one of my children…much less all of them. And God is THE PERFECT FATHER.
I take great comfort in knowing God would never leave us, has never left will and is here with us today…
I take great comfort in knowing God is all-powerful and could not be defeated, even for just 1000 years, by Satan.
I take great comfort in knowing God would not lie to us and a promise of “being with us always” means just that.
A God who could break His promise, abandon, and/or be defeated by Satan is not much of a God, is He?
How sad to believe God would actually turn His back on us, wirhdraw His authority, and leave us floundering for over 1000 years. Would a God who loves really do that?
As a father, I could never do that to one of my children…much less all of them. And God is THE PERFECT FATHER.
I take great comfort in knowing God would never leave us, has never left will and is here with us today…
I take great comfort in knowing God is all-powerful and could not be defeated, even for just 1000 years, by Satan.
I take great comfort in knowing God would not lie to us and a promise of “being with us always” means just that.
A God who could break His promise, abandon, and/or be defeated by Satan is not much of a God, is He?
L
LongJourney
Guest
Your background information is impressive. Do you see any similarities between the JST revelation and Ethan Smith’s exegesis of the same?
Yes, you have a great point on the Resurrection vs. bloodline.
L
LongJourney
Guest
P. 45 (p. 52 google’s pdf) of Ethan Smith’s Dissertation on the Prophecies has “years” Ethan Smith was a rabid restorationist and anti-Catholic.
A
Arandur
Guest
Ethan Smith…name’s familiar…could you refresh my memory about him and his exegesis? I don’t always have the most organized mind (and less still my notes), particularly for references.
Do you mean with regard to Revelation specifically? I believe I have a few Restorationist books and have been through some studies with them on it…but the only names I can remember them drawing from were Thomas Nunn and Arthur Oakman. But I have a blue book somewhere by someone else, and a binder from another still…maybe one of those is where “Ethan Smith” sounds familiar. Is there an online doc you could point me to?
A further point: dynastic succession–noble bloodlines and the all-important law regarding inheritance and succession–was and has been THE means by which proper, authoritative governments and kingdoms have passed down authority.
Dynastic succession was the sure sign of authority and legitimacy. It was THE ONLY means by which a PEACEFUL transition of rule could be made.
Well, after Christ the Davidic King took his throne, we have no need of a succession of kings. He reigns eternally. We do, however, have a need of a succession of the authorized ministers and servants of that king on this mortal earth.
So how do we know who those authoritative ministers are/should be? We cannot rely on bloodline dynastic succession, for the primary inherited office is forever occupied by Christ. We must instead rely upon succession of appointed ministers.
Rather than bloodline succession, we have appointed succession of offices, chosen faithful men rather than inherited offices. Chosen by those in authority (starting from those chosen by and anointed by Christ himself!), instilled by the passing down of that authority through an anointed, consecrated, public laying on of hands to show the transfer of authority.
Salvation History had proved even to the Israelites that bloodline inheritance, while it determinate who the legitimate, authoritative kings were, was FAR from a perfect system, the inheritors proving very corruptible to the downfall of the nation; ALL Gentile nations were familiar with this problem, as well.
It’s really quite brilliant. Christ himself fulfills the legitimate inheritance of the Davidic Kingdom by his legal earthly lineage. He then guarantees forever the authoritative seat of that Kingdom, sitting on the Throne. And he ensures that we all can know his authority exercised on earth by his own chosen ministers by a continued process of succession–but not dynastic succession, Apostolic Succession.
THIS is why Apostolic Succession is so brilliant and so essential. It, like dynastic succession through bloodline and legitimate inheritance, is the only known and sure way of proving authority. It is Divinely Instituted, Inspired, Ordained, and maintained. Forever–as long as the King is on his throne. To say that it fails is to say that the King fails to govern his Kingdom, and no longer sits on his own throne.
These are the proofs of the necessity of Apostolic Succession, and why there is no other way by which the Kingdom of God could exist or be known, and why it is sure and proven by all that came before in Salvation History. To say that Apostolic Succession never happened, or died out, is ignorance of the Kingdom of God and how God worked through Salvation History to bring about the Kingdom of his Son; moreover it is blasphemy against the King himself and an attempt to avoid submitting to the legitimate rule of the King. It’s like refusing to submit to the King’s men when they come to you in the Name of the King with a written document bearing the King’s own Seal and Signature by His own hand.
This is why “he who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me and him who sent me.”
Therefore, posit an Apostasy theory or a challenge to the Catholic Church at your own risk–for it shows only that you wish to challenge the authority of Jesus Christ who is King over all the universe, whether you like it or not.
(As a correlating side note, usurpation and conquest was one alternative to dynastic succession, and this required force and violence, as seen time and time again throughout history, even in the fall of the Roman Republic to the Imperial system. Democracy and republican representative governments can provide for peaceful, authoritative transitions through legitimate elections, and are strongest when based on a difficult-to-change constitution which represents and secures more strongly the consent of the people governed. However, these forms change upon the whim of the people, and are not directed to the rule of One Authority; they make the spirit of the age and the might of demagogues the rule, and can themselves fall into tyranny as the State is worshipped and the mob–driven by demagogues–oppresses those they can. So even these are ultimately unfit for the Kingdom of God, which must be ruled by One Authority who is All Truth, Justice, Mercy, Goodness, and Wisdom; the Church cannot be a democracy/republic wholly, if it is to be the Kingdom of God on Earth.
The Church, therefore, is a blend of both. The One Kingship of Christ secured by his eternal rule guides a hierarchy of appointed ministers installed in office by the Holy Spirit in the Name of the King–thus in his authority–but appointed by those already granted authority. There are also democratic aspects of the laity at the parochial level, and republican representative hierarchies through the dioceses, synods, ecumenical councils, and cardinal-electors of the Pope. Thus the Church’s government is an enlightened mix of the most peaceful, practical, and yet still liberty-respecting forms of government.)
L
LongJourney
Guest
Ethan Smith wrote “View of the Hebrews” which was very popular about the time that JS and Co. were writing the Book of Mormon. There are many parallels. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_Hebrews
contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/rsc/id/6303
He also wrote Dissertation on the Prophecies And there is evidence that at least the Pratt brothers were familiar with it.
contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm/ref/collection/rsc/id/6303
He also wrote Dissertation on the Prophecies And there is evidence that at least the Pratt brothers were familiar with it.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
batman1973,
You really aren’t going to find any solid evidence for the Mormon claim of “The Great Apostasy,” anymore than you can find evidence for the claim that the Mormon god is Adam who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth; or that through “exaltation” Mormons can become gods and rule over other worlds; or that Jesus is a polygamist. Mormonism should be exposed for what it is. Other than that, what is the point in entertaining heresy?
Anna
S
SteveVH
Guest
And that, my friends, is wisdom.
B
batman1973
Guest
Agreed.
B
batman1973
Guest
I agree. Well said Anna
L
lax16
Guest
TexanKnight - You are absolutely right.
And to think the whole reason for believing this is so that God would use Joseph Smith to restore it all.
In reading the book An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins, it shows that JS was a *known *treasure hunter and that he was not an “unlearned farm boy.”
(Brother) Hyrum attended a private academy and eventually taught school in Manchester. Joseph Sr. (according to wife Lucy) was also a school teacher who was “…well lettered in the Common branches of our english studies.”
According to a neighbor “Joe (Junior) was quite illiterate. After they began to have school at their house, he improved greatly…[They also] studied the Bible…”
JS wrote in 1832 that his parents were thorough in “instructing me in the christian religion” and he attended religious meetings in his youth.
Why do the Mormons revere him the way they do? Why don’t they know the truth about JS history?
T
TexanKnight
Guest
“Insider” is a good book. It shows how things were taught just because they sounded good. It is a good book about the origins of the LDS hoax and was written by a Mormon…
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Like Anna said, how much to entertain heresy…as well as pick up when we are then being used here on CAF for the new form of Mormonism that is now using the early church fathers and CCC460 out of our catechism.
Mormon history, comparing its first 150 years of Mormon ‘orthodoxy’, correct belief, and ‘orthopraxis’, right way of practice, is opposite that of the early universal Catholic church. And they are now following along using new arguments to deny our faith as truth, going along with non-denominational, non-historical and non-academic congregations thinking Constantine created the Catholic church, etc.
CAF is here to bring forth the truth of our Church and beliefs and practice.
It becomes difficult with Mormonism when new members are completely ignorant of its past.
Mormon history, comparing its first 150 years of Mormon ‘orthodoxy’, correct belief, and ‘orthopraxis’, right way of practice, is opposite that of the early universal Catholic church. And they are now following along using new arguments to deny our faith as truth, going along with non-denominational, non-historical and non-academic congregations thinking Constantine created the Catholic church, etc.
CAF is here to bring forth the truth of our Church and beliefs and practice.
It becomes difficult with Mormonism when new members are completely ignorant of its past.
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Kathleen,
Very true.
We have to look at the teachings of their founder J. Smith and the next prophets following him to see the truth about the original beliefs in Mormonism.
Considering the fact that second Mormon prophet, Brigham Young, claimed god revealed to him that Adam is god, and he could not find any man on the earth who could tell him this, until he met and talked with Joseph Smith; and considering the fact that BY taught this heresy for more than 20 years; I’d say the Mormon church has their own “great apostasy” to worry about.
June 8, 1873, President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City:
"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our Father and God—I do not know, I do not inquire, I care nothing about it. Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first woman upon the earth.
Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth. I have been found fault with by the ministers of religion because I have said that they were ignorant. But I could not find any man on the earth who could tell me this, although it is one of the simplest things in the world, until I met and talked with Joseph Smith."(The Desert News, Discourse, By President Brigham Young, Delivered in the new Tabernacle, Salt Lake City, Sunday Afternoon, June 8th, 1873.)
(© THE UNIVERSITY OF UTAH | J. Willard Marriott Library 295 S 1500 E SLC, UT 84112-0860) LDS Scripture Citation
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Deception is probably most effective when it contains a little bit of truth.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
So true and it creates alot of confusion.
I just have read the theological points from Hugh Nibley, Mormon, who also studied at two theological schools in California. He has done extensive work on the Early Church Fathers…and is the ‘God Father’ of Mormon apologists as source for their new direction in presenting Mormonism.
Nibley, and now others, go into great detail, just as Tom Nossor did, so many pages back, on Pope Clement, St. Justin the Martyr, among others, St. Athanasius – whose teachings totally contradict Mormonism.
Athanasius would roll in his grave if he saw how the Mormons were contradicting his own teachings.
Athanasius saw great need for further clarification of Christ’s divinity and humanity, because if not, this missive would lead to polytheism and eventually paganism!! Mormonism is polytheistic, it is anti-Christian, it is particularly anti-Catholic, no matter the niceness.
How many former Mormons, after finding out the truth of Mormonism, have ended up atheists?
Nibley uses early church fathers’ incomplete statements to infer that Mormonism is right. He states there used to be baptism of the dead, the manner of baptisms, for example, to prove Mormonism with again statements of Christ taken out of context, when in fact there were no baptisms for the dead in such a context as his.
To cherry pick teachings of Christ, of popes and early church fathers, is nothing more than wishful thinking and poor scholarship.
God creates our soul at conception. We have no heavenly parents but our own.
Furthermore, Nibley and all, are not acknowledging the full teachings of the early church fathers, and how our faith was put into practice through the apostles by 100 AD!
By 100 AD, we had all the books of Scripture, with the exception of the Book of Hebrews…that took another 100 years to verify as use for public revelations.
Mormons have a basic anti-Catholic viewpoint, no matter how much they want to make us think they are Christian. They will use the King James Version, but not any Catholic bible. Go figure.
But the Catholic Bible uses the Septuagint interpretation — same as Peter and Paul…this interpretation used by the Jewish people who awaited the Messiah, whereas the other, has been used by the Jewish tradition not awaiting the Messiah, a man of sufferings who would die on tree. Most telling.
They do not believe in the same Jesus as we do.
Our foundation of liturgy…explained by none other than St. Justin the Martyr, often quoted by Mormon sophists–wrote on what the Mass is and how it was practiced throughout the entire Christian world, but this is deliberately withheld from non-denominational Protestant followers and Mormons. The Mass is the form of worship Christ decreed, ‘Do This in Memory of Me’…St. Justin the Martyr’s description of the mass is the same today in intent, spirit, tone and parts that was in use throughout the entire Christian world by 100 AD. He was asked to explain what the Mass is to the Roman Emperor between 154 AD.
Mormons will read about what St. Justin the Martyr taught, but not know he taught there is only One God, Creator, and they will not find out through their teachers St. Justin’s description of the Mass.
Our Apostles Creed was recited at the earliest Masses by 100 AD. The Creed is the summation of our doctrine of faith, never changing.
Nibley’s use of Inference cannot be scholarly used to support Mormonism. Mormonism is one of a constantly evolving changing belief system such as Mormonism, a johnny come lately…especially when inference is only drawing on incomplete thought of past theologians, taken out of context, and unwilling to see the authentic practice of Christianity after the Apostles, and most of all putting concepts and practices onto Christ He never did or taught.
The martyrdom of the early Christians…many who wished to remain celibate…are great testimony to the faith today, they who entered into the spirit of life by none other than God Himself, Author of all life. They lived in that incredible event of time when the power of death, sin, human bondage was now broken by Jesus Christ.
Without understanding how people valued human life and creation before Christianity and how such paganism affected so many people, the vast majority in slavery in the world, and then to encounter Jesus Christ, this is greatly lacking in understanding.
Our Episcopacy was established by 100 AD, no concilliar council that is prone to peer pressure and waffling.
It is through the grace of Christ ministered to us in the Eucharist, the sacraments, that we experience God’s life, He sharing His very life, His very Son with us, and the effects this relationship has on us, and how Christians have changed this world to become more humane.
True Christianity takes to heart the exhortation of St. Michael the Archangel: Who is like unto God! True Christianity finds its life in Christ and comes to experience fellowship and adopted sonship with the Lord Himself.
But we always remain creatures.
What Christ does is make us more human, more humane, and to identify common identity with all people, to know that Christ stands before the heart of every human being. And we are to serve Him in our neighbor as He called us to follow Him.
Nibley errs using inference…a form of wishful thinking that cannot stand up to the actual and correct teachings of the early church fathers themselves, the apostolic witness of Jesus Christ and His life, and the life of early Christianity.
We who are sons and daughters of the One True God follow Him by being more real and genuine in our creation, and extending His love to everyone.
It is not about being special, or I am better I am a saint, etc.
St. Paul said we have no idea of what awaits us in heaven.
Let God be God. Let Him surprise us. I am sure it will be much better than the idea that we will be a god.
I just have read the theological points from Hugh Nibley, Mormon, who also studied at two theological schools in California. He has done extensive work on the Early Church Fathers…and is the ‘God Father’ of Mormon apologists as source for their new direction in presenting Mormonism.
Nibley, and now others, go into great detail, just as Tom Nossor did, so many pages back, on Pope Clement, St. Justin the Martyr, among others, St. Athanasius – whose teachings totally contradict Mormonism.
Athanasius would roll in his grave if he saw how the Mormons were contradicting his own teachings.
Athanasius saw great need for further clarification of Christ’s divinity and humanity, because if not, this missive would lead to polytheism and eventually paganism!! Mormonism is polytheistic, it is anti-Christian, it is particularly anti-Catholic, no matter the niceness.
How many former Mormons, after finding out the truth of Mormonism, have ended up atheists?
Nibley uses early church fathers’ incomplete statements to infer that Mormonism is right. He states there used to be baptism of the dead, the manner of baptisms, for example, to prove Mormonism with again statements of Christ taken out of context, when in fact there were no baptisms for the dead in such a context as his.
To cherry pick teachings of Christ, of popes and early church fathers, is nothing more than wishful thinking and poor scholarship.
God creates our soul at conception. We have no heavenly parents but our own.
Furthermore, Nibley and all, are not acknowledging the full teachings of the early church fathers, and how our faith was put into practice through the apostles by 100 AD!
By 100 AD, we had all the books of Scripture, with the exception of the Book of Hebrews…that took another 100 years to verify as use for public revelations.
Mormons have a basic anti-Catholic viewpoint, no matter how much they want to make us think they are Christian. They will use the King James Version, but not any Catholic bible. Go figure.
But the Catholic Bible uses the Septuagint interpretation — same as Peter and Paul…this interpretation used by the Jewish people who awaited the Messiah, whereas the other, has been used by the Jewish tradition not awaiting the Messiah, a man of sufferings who would die on tree. Most telling.
They do not believe in the same Jesus as we do.
Our foundation of liturgy…explained by none other than St. Justin the Martyr, often quoted by Mormon sophists–wrote on what the Mass is and how it was practiced throughout the entire Christian world, but this is deliberately withheld from non-denominational Protestant followers and Mormons. The Mass is the form of worship Christ decreed, ‘Do This in Memory of Me’…St. Justin the Martyr’s description of the mass is the same today in intent, spirit, tone and parts that was in use throughout the entire Christian world by 100 AD. He was asked to explain what the Mass is to the Roman Emperor between 154 AD.
Mormons will read about what St. Justin the Martyr taught, but not know he taught there is only One God, Creator, and they will not find out through their teachers St. Justin’s description of the Mass.
Our Apostles Creed was recited at the earliest Masses by 100 AD. The Creed is the summation of our doctrine of faith, never changing.
Nibley’s use of Inference cannot be scholarly used to support Mormonism. Mormonism is one of a constantly evolving changing belief system such as Mormonism, a johnny come lately…especially when inference is only drawing on incomplete thought of past theologians, taken out of context, and unwilling to see the authentic practice of Christianity after the Apostles, and most of all putting concepts and practices onto Christ He never did or taught.
The martyrdom of the early Christians…many who wished to remain celibate…are great testimony to the faith today, they who entered into the spirit of life by none other than God Himself, Author of all life. They lived in that incredible event of time when the power of death, sin, human bondage was now broken by Jesus Christ.
Without understanding how people valued human life and creation before Christianity and how such paganism affected so many people, the vast majority in slavery in the world, and then to encounter Jesus Christ, this is greatly lacking in understanding.
Our Episcopacy was established by 100 AD, no concilliar council that is prone to peer pressure and waffling.
It is through the grace of Christ ministered to us in the Eucharist, the sacraments, that we experience God’s life, He sharing His very life, His very Son with us, and the effects this relationship has on us, and how Christians have changed this world to become more humane.
True Christianity takes to heart the exhortation of St. Michael the Archangel: Who is like unto God! True Christianity finds its life in Christ and comes to experience fellowship and adopted sonship with the Lord Himself.
But we always remain creatures.
What Christ does is make us more human, more humane, and to identify common identity with all people, to know that Christ stands before the heart of every human being. And we are to serve Him in our neighbor as He called us to follow Him.
Nibley errs using inference…a form of wishful thinking that cannot stand up to the actual and correct teachings of the early church fathers themselves, the apostolic witness of Jesus Christ and His life, and the life of early Christianity.
We who are sons and daughters of the One True God follow Him by being more real and genuine in our creation, and extending His love to everyone.
It is not about being special, or I am better I am a saint, etc.
St. Paul said we have no idea of what awaits us in heaven.
Let God be God. Let Him surprise us. I am sure it will be much better than the idea that we will be a god.
J
jrtrent
Guest
Great post. I’ve never read anything by Nibley. He hadn’t yet written anything when I was investigating the church, and while his books had begun to appear before I left the church, I don’t recall any of his works being recommended by folks in my ward. Checking an author’s use of sources is always a good idea.
I was curious about the point quoted below, because I had heard just the opposite.
*"At a time when there were conscious efforts to distance the Church from its Jewish background, Jerome not only went to the Hebrew Bible but also sought help with difficult texts from Jews. In particular, Jerome acknowledged his debt to his Jewish teachers for helping him with the Book of Job whose Hebrew is difficult. Not all Jerome’s fellow Christians appreciated his efforts. They denigrated his translations as being “tainted with Judaism.”
St. Augustine was one of Jerome’s opponents. He suggested that, by basing his Latin translation on the Hebrew Bible rather than on the Septuagint, Jerome was driving a wedge between Christians of the East and West since the Greek-speaking Christians of the East were still using the Septuagint."* americancatholic.org/messenger/Sep1997/feature2.asp
I was curious about the point quoted below, because I had heard just the opposite.
On the other hand, one article said this:
*"At a time when there were conscious efforts to distance the Church from its Jewish background, Jerome not only went to the Hebrew Bible but also sought help with difficult texts from Jews. In particular, Jerome acknowledged his debt to his Jewish teachers for helping him with the Book of Job whose Hebrew is difficult. Not all Jerome’s fellow Christians appreciated his efforts. They denigrated his translations as being “tainted with Judaism.”
St. Augustine was one of Jerome’s opponents. He suggested that, by basing his Latin translation on the Hebrew Bible rather than on the Septuagint, Jerome was driving a wedge between Christians of the East and West since the Greek-speaking Christians of the East were still using the Septuagint."* americancatholic.org/messenger/Sep1997/feature2.asp
K
KathleenGee
Guest
It all comes down to the Holy Spirit, One Holy Spirit…not several or separate.
The Holy Trinity operates by the will of the Creator, the Heavenly Father.
The Church was already established as an institution by 100 AD. We use the same Apostles Creed at daily Mass.
Just as in Exodus, where God dictates to Moses how He is to be worshipped and His place – the Mercy Seat in the inner sanctuary of the Temple, – down to the minute description of how the priests should dress, the manner and rituals of animal sacrifices and their time, Christ now fulfills not only the Law, but breaks the power of death and darkness because of sin.
Our bodies lead us to sin. Mormonism is centered on the human ego and using God for one’s development towards excellence…and how that it works with past Mormon teachings of celestial heavens and the man creating more spirit children in the next life who will then some day have their own planets, etc is illogical and narcissistic.
God always is leading us to Him and out of the bondage of our own narcissism.
Jerome lived closer to the event and time of the lives of the Apostles.
SS Peter and Paul hold the keys to the Church, and some argue that it were they who composed the Apostles Creed. Their bodies were laid to rest under the altars in Rome, and recent studies are investigating alleged remains to determine whether or not they are indeed the remains of Peter and Paul.
The Mormon Temple going up in Rome will never be witness to the truth of the Gospel to the Truth of Jesus Christ.
Subsequently, the Risen and Glorious Lord gives us new life from the altar of heaven to us here to our altar below…the Manna from Heaven, the Eucharist…
The way to divinity is to eat…not of the forbidden fruit, but of the Eucharist that was foretold by the Tree of Life in Genesis, and letting the Lord be master of our destinies, not our own sense of being or power.
So it is significant and imperative and faithful to the Lord and His only witnesses, the Apostles to follow the tradition of interpretation through the Septuagint. St. Augustine is one of the greatest theologians in the Church, but he is not the only one.
That is because as Catholics, the Eucharist is given to us in communion with one another, mystically. We never have one person dictating one discipline of the Church.
The Early Church Fathers, including Origin who later fell into heresy after doing prolific work on Scripture, always presented their works to the Church for review, critique, and most of all prayer, to discern in the Holy Spirit, what was providing us greater insight into Christ in the deposit of faith, and discerning that which was not of Christ.
The Catholic Church is Christocentric.
Our faith is that grounded on the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ witnessed to us by the Apostles. Christ did not have just one apostle. The Mormons believe it was just one man, Joseph Smith, they deemed a prophet. Jesus is the last of all prophets.
Christ had 12 not one apostle. Christ had 12 apostles representing the 12 tribes, but then through Christ, the number 12 represesenting perfection…as Church. Apostle means to send forth.
The twelve apostles were not prophets. They were sent out to bear truth to Jesus Christ, to found churches, and to establish the foundation of Rome as its head in communion with patriarchs and bishops of dioceses…all working in collaboration with each other in communion.
The Church does not revolve around separate individuals or theologians or saints. The Church literally draws its life from Christ, His Word, His sacraments in the tradition of faith and practice we have held for 2,000 years. All work to provide us greater insight and communion with Christ, not fracture us to lead us out into another direction.
Be thankful for St. Jerome. He was most fluent in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. He was a literalist, and copied as he saw, not how he intrepreted. Very important!
St. Augustine was a theologian who interpreted Scripture and the nature of man.
St. Jerome was not an interpreter but called to literally copy the books of Scripture for the Church based on the Septuagint, the same tradition of understanding Scripture as the apostles. And the Septuagint is the one, ironically that Martin Luther withdrew, meaning the 7 books, such as Wisdom, that does not speak of immorality…but of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, Wisdom being the greatest fruit of the Holy Spirit.
There has been disputes on Jerome’s usage…he says ‘so that many may be saved’…that is because Aramaic does not have the superlative tense…so their ancient manner of speaking instead was saying the same thing three times. You have to understand the culture, the language use, their history to better understand the intent.
I used the King James given me by a former Catholic friend who left the Church. But working in the missions, I saw the great efficacy, accuracy, and continuity through use and reflection of the Catholic appproved Bibles.
Therefore, the Catholic Church, when it comes to faith and know what texts are correct, what theologies are correct, etc., the Church is guided by Christ through the Holy Spirit to bring us into full communion with the Holy Trinity and with each other.
This week is Christian unity week.
To base your entire religion on one uncontested person, even a Catholic priest, is wrong.
But most of all, the Catholic Church in essence is faith and mystery. We know our Shepherd and He knows us. You pray in faith, and take one step…not into an institution, but into the deep mystery of faith in God.
The Holy Trinity operates by the will of the Creator, the Heavenly Father.
The Church was already established as an institution by 100 AD. We use the same Apostles Creed at daily Mass.
Just as in Exodus, where God dictates to Moses how He is to be worshipped and His place – the Mercy Seat in the inner sanctuary of the Temple, – down to the minute description of how the priests should dress, the manner and rituals of animal sacrifices and their time, Christ now fulfills not only the Law, but breaks the power of death and darkness because of sin.
Our bodies lead us to sin. Mormonism is centered on the human ego and using God for one’s development towards excellence…and how that it works with past Mormon teachings of celestial heavens and the man creating more spirit children in the next life who will then some day have their own planets, etc is illogical and narcissistic.
God always is leading us to Him and out of the bondage of our own narcissism.
Jerome lived closer to the event and time of the lives of the Apostles.
SS Peter and Paul hold the keys to the Church, and some argue that it were they who composed the Apostles Creed. Their bodies were laid to rest under the altars in Rome, and recent studies are investigating alleged remains to determine whether or not they are indeed the remains of Peter and Paul.
The Mormon Temple going up in Rome will never be witness to the truth of the Gospel to the Truth of Jesus Christ.
Subsequently, the Risen and Glorious Lord gives us new life from the altar of heaven to us here to our altar below…the Manna from Heaven, the Eucharist…
The way to divinity is to eat…not of the forbidden fruit, but of the Eucharist that was foretold by the Tree of Life in Genesis, and letting the Lord be master of our destinies, not our own sense of being or power.
So it is significant and imperative and faithful to the Lord and His only witnesses, the Apostles to follow the tradition of interpretation through the Septuagint. St. Augustine is one of the greatest theologians in the Church, but he is not the only one.
That is because as Catholics, the Eucharist is given to us in communion with one another, mystically. We never have one person dictating one discipline of the Church.
The Early Church Fathers, including Origin who later fell into heresy after doing prolific work on Scripture, always presented their works to the Church for review, critique, and most of all prayer, to discern in the Holy Spirit, what was providing us greater insight into Christ in the deposit of faith, and discerning that which was not of Christ.
The Catholic Church is Christocentric.
Our faith is that grounded on the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ witnessed to us by the Apostles. Christ did not have just one apostle. The Mormons believe it was just one man, Joseph Smith, they deemed a prophet. Jesus is the last of all prophets.
Christ had 12 not one apostle. Christ had 12 apostles representing the 12 tribes, but then through Christ, the number 12 represesenting perfection…as Church. Apostle means to send forth.
The twelve apostles were not prophets. They were sent out to bear truth to Jesus Christ, to found churches, and to establish the foundation of Rome as its head in communion with patriarchs and bishops of dioceses…all working in collaboration with each other in communion.
The Church does not revolve around separate individuals or theologians or saints. The Church literally draws its life from Christ, His Word, His sacraments in the tradition of faith and practice we have held for 2,000 years. All work to provide us greater insight and communion with Christ, not fracture us to lead us out into another direction.
Be thankful for St. Jerome. He was most fluent in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. He was a literalist, and copied as he saw, not how he intrepreted. Very important!
St. Augustine was a theologian who interpreted Scripture and the nature of man.
St. Jerome was not an interpreter but called to literally copy the books of Scripture for the Church based on the Septuagint, the same tradition of understanding Scripture as the apostles. And the Septuagint is the one, ironically that Martin Luther withdrew, meaning the 7 books, such as Wisdom, that does not speak of immorality…but of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity, Wisdom being the greatest fruit of the Holy Spirit.
There has been disputes on Jerome’s usage…he says ‘so that many may be saved’…that is because Aramaic does not have the superlative tense…so their ancient manner of speaking instead was saying the same thing three times. You have to understand the culture, the language use, their history to better understand the intent.
I used the King James given me by a former Catholic friend who left the Church. But working in the missions, I saw the great efficacy, accuracy, and continuity through use and reflection of the Catholic appproved Bibles.
Therefore, the Catholic Church, when it comes to faith and know what texts are correct, what theologies are correct, etc., the Church is guided by Christ through the Holy Spirit to bring us into full communion with the Holy Trinity and with each other.
This week is Christian unity week.
To base your entire religion on one uncontested person, even a Catholic priest, is wrong.
But most of all, the Catholic Church in essence is faith and mystery. We know our Shepherd and He knows us. You pray in faith, and take one step…not into an institution, but into the deep mystery of faith in God.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
For Mormons and Protestants seeking understanding of our faith:
Check out Catholic in the Ozarks: Catholicism for Protestants by Shane Schaetzel
Check out Catholic in the Ozarks: Catholicism for Protestants by Shane Schaetzel
A
Arandur
Guest
Ah, right. View of the Hebrews, that’s where I know of him.
I hadn’t read anything else by Ethan Smith, but I did do a few searches over that source you gave me. I’m not sure there’s anything particularly unique about Ethan Smith’s views on Revelation that would single him out as a particular source (as opposed to others) for Joseph Smith and his band.
There are other similar ideas, to be sure, but by and large, Joseph Smith’s ideas were just a sampling of those bouncing around in the Revivalist movements in his place and time, where he took what he liked and tried to make it authoritative by claiming it came from his new or corrected scripture.
Alexander Campbell (cf Campbellites, and the Stone-Campbell movement) was another contemporary (prior) “Restorationist,” a major influence on Joseph Smith and his friends, and a source that a lot of BoM-believing sects have made many references to as evidence of the validity of their “restoration” and attempt to use as an apologist for many of their doctrines (the rationale for which they took from Campbell). This despite the fact that Alexander Campbell leveled an extensive and very scathing criticism of JS. Oh boy, did Campbell rip him (and the BoM) apart!
One of Alexander Campbell’s chief criticisms of JS’s works was the anachronistic nature, wherein it was quite clear by the content, phraseology, and perfect description of contemporary (rather than ancient) arguments that Smith was just–very conveniently–attempting to settle theological disputes by inserting his own judgment on various subjects into his scriptures.
Back to Ethan Smith: his “Dissertation on the Prophecies” has similarities with JS’s re-writing of the Book of Revelation and JS’s sermons, but in many ways via commonly-held ideas at that time and place. For instance, that the Woman of Revelation 12 is just the Church and not also Mary; that things went south for the Church with Constantine and that the Pope was the antichrist; that the whole church would be led into the “wilderness” to be brought forth at some later time–whether that was Luther’s instigation of the Protestant movements, current or future “restoration” movements, or second coming expectations like the predecessors of the Seventh Day Adventists at the time had. Indeed, the false days to years switch for the 1260 number was not just committed by JS or Ethan Smith, but was a known quantity at the time, and many people (as they have for centuries) had tried backtracking dates just as the OP’s source attempted to do. The BoM restorationists were just making the same attempt to force Revelation to fit their purposes that many other groups were. JS really wasn’t very original.
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