A date for the "Great Apostasy"

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FabiusMaximus said:
I don’t believe either in Mormonism or in the Great Apostasy, but I don’t see how disagreement over when the apostasy is said to have occur is supposed to be a smoking gun argument against them.

After all, an apostasy is hardly something that would occur in one day, it would probably be something that gradually develops and overtakes the Church over time. You wouldn’t be able to pin it down to one day or year.
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+1
 
FabiusMaximus said:
I don’t believe either in Mormonism or in the Great Apostasy, but I don’t see how disagreement over when the apostasy is said to have occur is supposed to be a smoking gun argument against them.

After all, an apostasy is hardly something that would occur in one day, it would probably be something that gradually develops and overtakes the Church over time. You wouldn’t be able to pin it down to one day or year.

I think there’s too much focus on Mormonism on these forums.
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I agree that is the view that LDS have, but it doesn’t preclude pinning down a date. The decline of the Roman Empire was gradual, over a long period of time, but the date that Rome actually fell is known. The decline itself is documented.

The LDS idea of a great apostasy, as I see it, is a conspiracy theory. Based on a few, single observations taken out of the context of the whole. A caricature. But if you bother to look at the Church as a whole, east and west, you can’t provide a date and related, you can’t document it.

You can, however, document the continuity if the Church, east and west, see its triumphs and struggles, and notice perhaps that we’re still here.
 
a fall, like in Rome, is gradual. God pulling His authority is not.

there should be a date
 
RebeccaJ said:
A declined authority, is no authority.
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If there was a great apostasy then it could not have been a gradual process spread out over centuries because already by the beginning of the 2nd century we see a church that is decidely catholic in its beliefs and organization. For a great apostasy to have occured as Mormons believe, after the deaths of Peter and Paul there must have been a radical and complete reversal in church doctrine and organization so that 30 or 40 years later, by the time we get to Clement of Rome (90’s AD) and Ignatius (107AD), we have a church that believes in the Real Presence, baptism by pouring, fasting on Fridays, saying of the Lord’s Prayer, a church that respects the authority of the Roman church, and a church that is led by bishops, along with their presbyters and deacons. Did the inspired work of the apostles really collapse in that short time? I’m old enough so that 30 years doesn’t strike me as some immeasurable gulf of time over which the true teachings of the apostles could be lost.

There really isn’t some big gap between the times of the apostles and the earliest post-apostolic documents. The actual timeline looks something like this:

30 AD – death of Jesus

50’s & 60’s AD – epistles of Paul

mid 60’s – martyrdom of Peter & Paul in Rome

70 AD – Mark’s gospel

70’s & 80’s AD – gospels of Matthew & Luke; Acts of the Apostles

50’s to 90’s AD - Didache

90’s – gospel of John; Revelation

90’s – epistle of Clement

107 AD – epistles of Ignatius & epistle of Polycarp

125 AD – apology of Aristides

150 AD – apologies of Justin

155 AD – account of the martyrdom of Polycarp

180 AD – Irenaeus’ Against Heresies & Demonstration of the Apostolic Teaching
 
FabiusMaximus said:
I don’t believe either in Mormonism or in the Great Apostasy, but I don’t see how disagreement over when the apostasy is said to have occur is supposed to be a smoking gun argument against them.

After all, an apostasy is hardly something that would occur in one day, it would probably be something that gradually develops and overtakes the Church over time. You wouldn’t be able to pin it down to one day or year.

I think there’s too much focus on Mormonism on these forums.
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The operating assumption is that there was a “Great Apostasy.” But if there is no agreement on when or what it was, that is evidence against the assumption.

One idea is that an apostasy began with the apostle Paul, who led the mass of Christians away from the pure Chrisitanity of Jerusalem. And since subsequent Christianity is from Pauline Christianity, we are all apostates.
 
mackbrislawn said:
The operating assumption is that there was a “Great Apostasy.” But if there is no agreement on when or what it was, that is evidence against the assumption.

One idea is that an apostasy began with the apostle Paul, who led the mass of Christians away from the pure Chrisitanity of Jerusalem. And since subsequent Christianity is from Pauline Christianity, we are all apostates.
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Then they had better toss the bulk of the New Testament.
 
TexanKnight said:
hard to have a date for something that never happened.
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:rotfl: AMEN! But that’s the catch → they need to establish a “reason” for their existence!

My LDS boss had the nerve to look me in the eye one day @ work & say “there are only 2 Churches: the Catholic Church & the Mormon Church. But the Catholic Church fell away…” to which I responded “it took God 1400 years to get back to us with a new church???” LOL. A* little *late in my estimation! But people don’t do their homework, do they - that’s why they fall for such drivel.
 
Pepband_Mom said:
:rotfl: AMEN! But that’s the catch → they need to establish a “reason” for their existence!

My LDS boss had the nerve to look me in the eye one day @ work & say “there are only 2 Churches: the Catholic Church & the Mormon Church. But the Catholic Church fell away…” to which I responded “it took God 1400 years to get back to us with a new church???” LOL. A* little *late in my estimation! But people don’t do their homework, do they - that’s why they fall for such drivel.
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When lds people say that there are 2 churches, them and us, I take it that they are not firm believers in their faith. Because as a Catholic, there is only 1 church, The Holy, Catholic & Apostolic Church, noneother.
 
Mormon- God Loves US!

Catholic: Ok…so He never left us?

Mormon- Oh no…he left us for 1800 years! But He loves us!

Catholic: Ok…so, he loves us, but left us for 1800 years? When did he leave us?

Mormon- I have no clue…but I know He did…

Catholic: Ok…so he loves us enough to leave us for 1800 years…this is God…right?

Mormon- Yep…and Adam is our God…or he was…now he is not…but he used to be a man…or, at least he USED to use to be a man…now he is always God…I think…

Catholic: Ok…so a God who might be Adam or who maybe used to be a man loves us enough to leave us at some undetermined point for 1800 years?

Mormon- Yep…he loves ALL of us.

Catholic: What about blacks?

Mormon- Oh…he loves blacks NOW…but before, they were gonna turn white so he could love them better…but that never happened, so He loves them as blacks now.

Catholic: That all makes perfect sense.

Please Brother Catholics…PRAY for our LDS brothers and sisters…we have already started to see some miracles here…lets pray that the TRUE God keeps touching their hearts.
 
Pepband Mom…

Yes, He left us Catholics irregardless of the countless Catholic martyrs who died for Him for 1800 years.
 
TexanKnight said:
Mormon- God Loves US!

Catholic: Ok…so He never left us?

Mormon- Oh no…he left us for 1800 years! But He loves us!

Catholic: Ok…so, he loves us, but left us for 1800 years? When did he leave us?

Mormon- I have no clue…but I know He did…

Catholic: Ok…so he loves us enough to leave us for 1800 years…this is God…right?

Mormon- Yep…and Adam is our God…or he was…now he is not…but he used to be a man…or, at least he USED to use to be a man…now he is always God…I think…

Catholic: Ok…so a God who might be Adam or who maybe used to be a man loves us enough to leave us at some undetermined point for 1800 years?

Mormon- Yep…he loves ALL of us.

Catholic: What about blacks?

Mormon- Oh…he loves blacks NOW…but before, they were gonna turn white so he could love them better…but that never happened, so He loves them as blacks now.

Catholic: That all makes perfect sense.

Please Brother Catholics…PRAY for our LDS brothers and sisters…we have already started to see some miracles here…lets pray that the TRUE God keeps touching their hearts.
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LMAO. To funny. Im going to print that so when the missionaries come by I can tell them this 👍
 
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