A decent talk

[Nicro]

Okay, Nicro, you yourself said Mohammad was illiterate. Doesn’t this imply that the Koran was written later anyway? Does this have any implications for Islam or the Koran’s … ah, what’s the word… viability? Doesn’t it mean the Koran was exposed to opportunities for corruption?

I’m sorry, I’m not even sure what I’m saying right now…

No not really. What would happen is that while he would start saying everything he would have people there who would right it down and memorize what he was saying.And we have Qurans form Muhammads time which are the same as now.THe Quran is the most memorized book in the world, millions have memorized it cover to cover to ensure it doesnt change.

 

[benedicter]

. Or what you say about relationships, I really feel thats key, some of us at at different points, thats how it can be said its still God.
And if Im trotting up the wrong path please stop me

Kitty, seekers are never trotting up the wrong path unless they stay up one and won’t come down! To elaborate further an unknowable god cannot be the same as the knowable/relational God. Therefore I disagree that God is the same we are just at different points. Consider this, God cannot oppose himself. What is true in the Christian Revelation of God through Jesus Christ be equally true through the messenger of Allah if the messenger of Allah says the opposite (which is the case). Truth is absolute not chaotic. If God is relational and comes to us he will speak the Truth. Only a God who reveals himself can care enough to save us.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Kitty, seekers are never trotting up the wrong path unless they stay up one and won’t come down! To elaborate further an unknowable god cannot be the same as the knowable/relational God. Therefore I disagree that God is the same we are just at different points. Consider this, God cannot oppose himself. What is true in the Christian Revelation of God through Jesus Christ be equally true through the messenger of Allah if the messenger of Allah says the opposite (which is the case). Truth is absolute not chaotic. If God is relational and comes to us he will speak the Truth. Only a God who reveals himself can care enough to save us.

oh good, Im glad.

I like what you said about the relationship, but you stated it much gooder than me

This is why I asked Nicro about what he thought of the nature of God or Allah as he knows him.

You say a God who reveals Himself will save us, perhaps Allah is not going to. So perhaps He can stay distant??

Nicro what do you say??

 

[benedicter]

oh good, Im glad.

I like what you said about the relationship, but you stated it much gooder than me

Hi Kitty, I thought I’d drop in with another thought. Think about this - if there is a Creator God (Muslims and Christians and Jews all agree on this) think about this - is creating a personal or an impersonal act? That should point you on the right path. Speaking as a Catholic I say Creation is a personal (involves personal (name removed by moderator)ut, giving of self) act. Therefore God the Creator must be personal. Also if we are created in the likeness of God that can’t mean bodies as God is Spirit but I think it means relational like humans are relational beings. Therefore the true revelation of God is as a personal not an impersonal God.

 

[Reuben_J]

First, Muslims believe that Jesus was never crucified. Someone who looked like Jesus was.

second, it is easy to tell the scriptures were changed. Look at them through history. Everyone is different. They were changed by accident and on purpose.

Hi.

The above is simply not true and illogical. Any Muslim who knows how Holy Scriptures came about will not believe that scriptures can be corrupted simply because someone changed them according to their own likings. You cannot do that with the Quran, and there is no reason why that can be done to the Bible. The time the Quran was standardized when Caliph Uthman burned all the other copies; the act was known by us today. What more could be said if you actually had changed the wording of the Quran.

You believe that the Bible that we have today is not the original thing – but that is because Muslims cannot reconcile why the Quran is so contradictory to the Bible. As many Muslims put it: where the older scriptures confirm the Quran, they are correct, and where not, they had been corrupted.

Unfortunately this reasoning is not entirely supported by the Quran itself. There is nothing in the Quran that says the Bible is corrupted. Yes, there were some men who twisted the words of the Bible and interpreted them for their own advantages. But this observation is also found in the Bible itself. Nevertheless there is nothing where the Quran says that the Bible at Mohammad’s time was corrupted. In fact Mohammad affirmed that the Bible, as words of God, was preserved. You see the Quranic flaws vis-a-vis the Bible were noted much later by Muslim scholars who then at a loss on how to explain them.

As for Jesus did not die on the cross: If all things being equal, I would go for the truth in the Bible which was written within a generation of eye-witnesses or their followers rather than the retelling of the story in the Quran which was written 600 years later by people who had no idea of who Jesus was. You see, the Quran defies logic here. Its version is not supported by any evidence whatsoever that is so necessary when you recreate a story of this magnitude. It is even so very vague about exactly what happened during the crucifixion. Thus today Muslims have many versions and assumptions on what happened then and none can say for sure what it was. We Catholics find it difficult to hang to a belief that can determine your life eternal on the basis of someone said so and that’s it. And so that’s why the Quran must be rejected.

Sorry brother to truly disagree with you.

Peace and God bless.
Reuben.

 

[inJESUS]

don’t you believe that other prophets were killed? if yes, then you got the answer, knowing that the name is irrelevant.

It never says he MADE someone look like Jesus just that a person who looked like him ended up being killed

like there was Jesus’ twin in face, body, and voice that even his mother did not recognize him? and he was arrested, paraded the streets, and ended up on the cross without even uttering a word?

 

[inJESUS]

my first part reads:

Sunni Islam teaches that the Quran, or the Word of Allah (not the papers in the book) , is uncreated and eternal.The Word of Allah is an attribute of Allah that exists always with Allah. Does it mean that when you refer to the Word of Allah, you are refering to something different than Allah? or maybe associating another deity with Allah? or are you actually refering to Allah?

Tawassul is just asking someone to pray for you. For example when I reverted to Islam a whole bunch of brothers asked me to make Dua for them. Simply because I was pure at the time so my prayers would be coming from a pure person instead of a sinner.

very good.

 

[Nicro]

Well I think I know what you are trying to say. That the Quran is uncreated but has always been because Allah has always been? Sorry but I am just trying to get a clear understanding of what you are saying.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Hi Kitty, I thought I’d drop in with another thought. Think about this - if there is a Creator God (Muslims and Christians and Jews all agree on this) think about this - is creating a personal or an impersonal act? That should point you on the right path. Speaking as a Catholic I say Creation is a personal (involves personal (name removed by moderator)ut, giving of self) act. Therefore God the Creator must be personal. Also if we are created in the likeness of God that can’t mean bodies as God is Spirit but I think it means relational like humans are relational beings. Therefore the true revelation of God is as a personal not an impersonal God.

Yes, Im with you on this, I like how you describe it. Im trying to determine how Nicro feels about God as well in this kind of area.

Nicro do you agree with God the Creator for starters. Then how do you feel about the relationship as benedictor describes? This is why I asked you how you understood Gods nature.

 

[Greg27]

I’m very interested in Medieval Islamic Philosophy and Theology, particularly thinkers like Al-Farbi, Avicenna, Al-Ghazali, Ibn Arabi, Shuwardi, and a few others. I’m also interested in Islamic mysticism. This is part of my general interest in the philosophy of religion and medieval and ancient religious philosophy (Jewish, Christian and Islamic).

 

[inJESUS]

Well I think I know what you are trying to say. That the Quran is uncreated but has always been because Allah has always been? Sorry but I am just trying to get a clear understanding of what you are saying.

This is a quotation from the Sunni position:

“And know that the phrase ‘Kalām Allah’ (**Allah’s Word **or Speech) is applied to the beginningless unuttered speech (kalām nafsī qadīm), which happens to be a quality (sifah) present with His being (dhat)

Now when you talk about the Word of Allah (which is eternal and uncreated), are you actually associating partner in divinity with Allah or is His Word Him in essence?

 

[East_and_West]

Jesus spoke Aramaic. in aramaic God is Allah.

The name Allah is used in Eastern Catholic Liturgies in the Middle East. So we have no problem with the term. The reason we see the Christian God and the muslim god as different will be seen in the following:
We believe that the Christian God is Trinity, three persons in one God, each person possesing the one divine nature. We believe that the second person of the Trinity became incarnate and sacrificed his earthly life for our sins and on the Third day he rose again. We believe that through the sacrifice of the Second Person of the Trinity (Jesus) that we become adoptive children of God and participate in his divine nature.

None of this is true of the muslim god.

 

[inJESUS]

The name Allah is used in Eastern Catholic Liturgies in the Middle East. So we have no problem with the term.

Allah is the arabic version of Aloho and we Easterners say Allah just for this reason, When we pray in Aramaic, we say Aloho.

The reason we see the Christian God and the muslim god as different will be seen in the following:

 

[Alexius]

I’m very interested in Medieval Islamic Philosophy and Theology, particularly thinkers like Al-Farbi, Avicenna, Al-Ghazali, Ibn Arabi, Shuwardi, and a few others. I’m also interested in Islamic mysticism. This is part of my general interest in the philosophy of religion and medieval and ancient religious philosophy (Jewish, Christian and Islamic).

Have you read “The Flowering of Muslim Theology” by Josef Van Ess? I have not finished it yet, but it is very informative about Islamic thought. I highly recommend it, just make sure it’s in English…

Prayers and petitions,
Alexius

 

[Nicro]

This is a quotation from the Sunni position:

“And know that the phrase ‘Kalām Allah’ (**Allah’s Word **or Speech) is applied to the beginningless unuttered speech (kalām nafsī qadīm), which happens to be a quality (sifah) present with His being (dhat)

Now when you talk about the Word of Allah (which is eternal and uncreated), are you actually associating partner in divinity with Allah or is His Word Him in essence?

OK!! now I get what your saying. But no we are not associating partners. It is just His words. Sense He is beginning less so is His words, but it is not a separate entity.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

this is not very accurate, but you are correct that theologically, Islam does not expand on the nature of God, His Word, His Spirit. They think they are closer to Oness when they refrain from going deeper into the nature of God, that’s why a Christian cannot go as deep as he might wish in theological discussion with a Muslim.

 

[Nicro]

I understand God as the only way God can be: perfect.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

I understand God as the only way God can be: perfect.

OK Im with you on that, its a start, I agree.

If you wouldnt mind terribly could you look at what Ive been trying to ask you and respond to any of it? Or if it makes no sense please let me know. Im just going to say that than try again if thats ok.

Or should I start again??

 

[Nicro]

Well I see God as being the Creator of all the Most High the most perfect being in all of existence since He made existence.

 

[Philthy]

Hi Nicro!

We can all agree that God is perfect - great, I dont think too many would disagree with that.

I have a separate question: how is the interpretation of the Quran accomplished? Is each individual allowed to interpret, or is there a vote by scholars or what? Does anyone have the final say on what is authoritative and if so where did this individual get his authority?