A decent talk

[ralphinal]

**Thanks for acknowledging that there are good and bad people in all faiths. Your question about non-muslims living in Muslim countries needs to be undersood properly. Please remember that there is no such things as tax or death and there was no such thing in the old time too. There was no death at all. But there may be a challenge for war.

When some small state is lying between two major waring states, it becomes necessary to find out which side that small state will align. If that state agreed to align with Muslims in peace then they were asked to pay some kind of small tax as a token of co-operation and as a sign of alliance.

There is no harm in that. Otherwise it would be understood that state was neutral or aligned with the enemy. This tax will bind the Muslims that state will not be attacked by any one and will be protected by all means. It was a sort of protection tax. There was another very important reason to impose that tax which will be disclosed later on demand.**

I have no issue admiting that there are bad people in every faith. I do not like to do so, as it shows another example of human failure, but it cannot be denied. I see what you are saying about the nationality thing, but my question is based on individuals living in Muslim lands. Please show me the truth if this is wrong.

Doesn’t every major branch of Shaia law call for the execution of people who leave Islam? Doesn’t the Koran does require Christians and Jews to either pay a tax or convert?

 

[Arbitro360]

**Thanks for acknowledging that there are good and bad people in all faiths. Your question about non-muslims living in Muslim countries needs to be undersood properly. Please remember that there is no such things as tax or death and there was no such thing in the old time too. There was no death at all. But there may be a challenge for war.

When some small state is lying between two major waring states, it becomes necessary to find out which side that small state will align. If that state agreed to align with Muslims in peace then they were asked to pay some kind of small tax as a token of co-operation and as a sign of alliance.

There is no harm in that. Otherwise it would be understood that state was neutral or aligned with the enemy. This tax will bind the Muslims that state will not be attacked by any one and will be protected by all means. It was a sort of protection tax. There was another very important reason to impose that tax which will be disclosed later on demand.**

 

[Arbitro360]

**Thanks for acknowledging that there are good and bad people in all faiths. Your question about non-muslims living in Muslim countries needs to be undersood properly. Please remember that there is no such things as tax or death and there was no such thing in the old time too. There was no death at all. But there may be a challenge for war.

When some small state is lying between two major waring states, it becomes necessary to find out which side that small state will align. If that state agreed to align with Muslims in peace then they were asked to pay some kind of small tax as a token of co-operation and as a sign of alliance.

There is no harm in that. Otherwise it would be understood that state was neutral or aligned with the enemy. This tax will bind the Muslims that state will not be attacked by any one and will be protected by all means. It was a sort of protection tax. There was another very important reason to impose that tax which will be disclosed later on demand.**

Thsi is quite simply the most bald-faced lie I have ever seen posted on this forum.

Anyone who has studied the real history of Islam will know this. The koran and the hadith all describe the Jizya extortion tax and how it is to be implemented on the “Dhimmi’s” throughout all “muslim” lands.

Don’t believe me. Read for yourself. Read the true history of the muslim conquests in the Balkans and Greece, the story of the “Janissaries,” the Mughal conquests of India, the Ottoman Empire. All of them practiced Jihad warfare, imposed extortionate Jizya, practiced genocide on non-muslims, and oppressed all religious minorities, often to the point of extinction.

This is the kind of mendacity that discredits all dialogue with muslims.

It is “Taquiyya” or deception intended to trick the infidels into accepting the rabies-like spiritual disease called “islam” into thier countries, until the muslims are strong enough to impose their barbarous religious gangsterism on the rest of us.

Read Brigitte Gabriel, read Ibn Warraq, read Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Pick up a gosh-darned newspaper!

Why why why am I the lonely voice screaming from the rooftops?

Wake UP people!

Santiago Matamoros pray for us.

Long Live the Christian Falange !

 

[Arbitro360]

**If any Muslim will attack any Jew or Christian to make lethal injury or if any muslim will see a Jew dying and will not protect / save him then he is not a muslim. That is for sure. A muslim should be ready to put his own life in danger to protect any innocent person. That Muslim who saved the life of the Jews was a brave man and should be highly respected.

Muslims should not harbor any ill feelings against the Jews or the christians. The political matters are different in each country. I do not talk about that.**

Oh sure. Go stand on a street-corner in Gaza or Amman or Cairo, or Jedda and preach that horse-hockey. See how long you can stay alive.

I am disgusted with all the (Edited) islamic apologist (Edited) in this forum.

Only a dupe or an ignoramus can continue to put any credence on dialogue with the practitioners of “Dawa-by deception.”

 

[Valke2]

**If any Muslim will attack any Jew or Christian to make lethal injury or if any muslim will see a Jew dying and will not protect / save him then he is not a muslim. That is for sure. A muslim should be ready to put his own life in danger to protect any innocent person. That Muslim who saved the life of the Jews was a brave man and should be highly respected.

Muslims should not harbor any ill feelings against the Jews or the christians. The political matters are different in each country. I do not talk about that.**

Nicely said.

 

[planten]

Nicely said.

More on the same line. It is in the quran that if any one kills any innocent person then it is considered as if he had killed the whole mankind (humanity).

That is the teaching of Islam. If some Muslim people are not practicing that now then it may be due some political reason or some disturbance. There should be no suicide bombers.

 

[exoflare]

More on the same line. It is in the quran that if any one kills any innocent person then it is considered as if he had killed the whole mankind

Does leaving Islam disqualify one as being “innocent”?

 

[Valke2]

More on the same line. It is in the quran that if any one kills any innocent person then it is considered as if he had killed the whole mankind (humanity).

That is the teaching of Islam. If some Muslim people are not practicing that now then it may be due some political reason or some disturbance. There should be no suicide bombers.

Judaism says much the same thing.

 

[exoflare]

Judaism says much the same thing.

The difference is that Jews also put it into practice! I don’t see how anyone can claim to hold this as true, while at the same time believing that apostates from their religion must all be killed.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

The difference is that Jews also put it into practice! I don’t see how anyone can claim to hold this as true, while at the same time believing that apostates from their religion must all be killed.

Although when a Jew starts believing in Jesus he is treated like the plague by other Jews, that isn’t so great either.

 

[Valke2]

Although when a Jew starts believing in Jesus he is treated like the plague by other Jews, that isn’t so great either.

what possible connection to this thread or my response could your post have? Do you have some sort of program that responds with the same statement evertime the word “jew” or “judaism” appears in a thread?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

what possible connection to this thread or my response could your post have? Do you have some sort of program that responds with the same statement evertime the word “jew” or “judaism” appears in a thread?

I’ve been discussing everything from Jewish thought about demigods to this kind of thing so I don’t get your point. I was responding to this:

“The difference is that Jews also put it into practice! I don’t see how anyone can claim to hold this as true, while at the same time believing that apostates from their religion must all be killed.”

When you treat a Jew who believes in Jesus as a non-Jew then you are effectively killing him as a Jew. If you are Jewish, you know that many Jews say that Jews who accept Jesus are no longer Jewish but Christian. And you know that Jewish identity is a very valued thing to have, and that it would be devastating to have it stripped from you.

 

[Valke2]

I’ve been discussing everything from Jewish thought about demigods to this kind of thing so I don’t get your point. I was responding to this:

“The difference is that Jews also put it into practice! I don’t see how anyone can claim to hold this as true, while at the same time believing that apostates from their religion must all be killed.”

When you treat a Jew who believes in Jesus as a non-Jew then you are effectively killing him as a Jew. If you are Jewish, you know that many Jews say that Jews who accept Jesus are no longer Jewish but Christian. And you know that Jewish identity is a very valued thing to have, and that it would be devastating to have it stripped from you.

First of all, the vast majority of jews who accept Jesus do not consider themselves Jewish, but Christian. If you are referring to Messianic Jews, many if not most of them were never jewish to begin with. Those that were Jewish are generally jews who had no religious upbringing and often lived in a place where such an upbringing was not an option, and even a crime.

Your obsession with Jews rejecting Jews who accept Jesus is therefore, IMO, unwarranted.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

First of all, the vast majority of jews who accept Jesus do not consider themselves Jewish, but Christian. If you are referring to Messianic Jews, many if not most of them were never jewish to begin with. Those that were Jewish are generally jews who had no religious upbringing and often lived in a place where such an upbringing was not an option, and even a crime.

Your obsession with Jews rejecting Jews who accept Jesus is therefore, IMO, unwarranted.

Even when Jews convert to Christianity they usually say they are ethnically Jewish, it’s not an identity people tend to give up lightly no matter what their beliefs.

Then there are Messianic Jews who are halachly Jews. Thousands of them turning to Jesus over the past 25 years, according to Jews for Judaism last I saw. That’s not like 20 million, but it’s not just a few either. So even though they are halachly Jews, and they say they are still Jews, most Jews tell them they are no longer Jewish and force them into the Christian box.

So fellow Jews strip them of their Jewishness for believing in Jesus. If you had a choice between giving up your Jewishness and life, or keeping it and death, which would you take?

So what are most Jews doing to this minority of halachly Jewish people who believe in Jesus but still observe Torah and consider themselves Jewish culturally and ethnically?

Maybe forcing upon them a fate worse than death?

 

[Valke2]

Fellow Jews do not strip them of anything. They do it themselves. And please keep in mind that many christians do not view messianic jews as jews, but rather as christians. Correctly, I believe.

Messianic Judaism is not a form of Judaism, meaning that all Jewish sects have rejected it as such. So when a Jew is practicing Messianic Judaism, the name itself is a misnomer, as that person is not practicing any form of Judaism.

A jew who claims jesus is their savor has removed themeselves from the Jewish community. That’s on them, not us. To say such a thing clearly makes one a believe in Christanity, not Judaism.

All messianic Jewish movements that I’ve ever heard of are an attempt to convert Jews to christianity. They cloth themselves in Jewish paraphenalia and their churches are designed to look like shuls, but they are fundamentalist christian churches.

Given this, you should not be surprised that Messianic “Jews” are not warmly received in Jewish communities.

 

[Valke2]

Halacha would categorize any Jew who adopts Jesus as their savior, or any other person as their savior, as an apostate.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Fellow Jews do not strip them of anything. They do it themselves. And please keep in mind that many christians do not view messianic jews as jews, but rather as christians. Correctly, I believe.

Messianic Judaism is not a form of Judaism, meaning that all Jewish sects have rejected it as such. So when a Jew is practicing Messianic Judaism, the name itself is a misnomer, as that person is not practicing any form of Judaism.

A jew who claims jesus is their savor has removed themeselves from the Jewish community. That’s on them, not us. To say such a thing clearly makes one a believe in Christanity, not Judaism.

All messianic Jewish movements that I’ve ever heard of are an attempt to convert Jews to christianity. They cloth themselves in Jewish paraphenalia and their churches are designed to look like shuls, but they are fundamentalist christian churches.

Given this, you should not be surprised that Messianic “Jews” are not warmly received in Jewish communities.

I’m not talking about the fake Jews, but those halachly Jewish. In all cases, once a Jew, always a Jew, except if you believe in Jesus.

That Jews can believe anything else and still remain in Judaism, like that Rebbe is Messiah or God, or even that there is no such thing as God, but kick out other Jews who believe in Jesus, makes it a special persecution of Jesus.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Halacha would categorize any Jew who adopts Jesus as their savior, or any other person as their savior, as an apostate.

Nonsense. Moshiach is expected to save the Jews by causing an end to sin and death and bring Noahide Laws to Gentiles to save them too. On one hand Jews say Jesus isn’t Messiah because he failed to save them from all that, on the other they say he isn’t Messiah because he is a savior. Doubletalk as convenient.

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles,** that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth**.

 

[Valke2]

Nonsense. Moshiach is expected to save the Jews by causing an end to sin and death and bring Noahide Laws to Gentiles to save them too. On one hand Jews say Jesus isn’t Messiah because he failed to save them from all that, on the other they say he isn’t Messiah because he is a savior. Doubletalk as convenient.

Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles,** that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth**.

Quote all you want. The Messiah is not expected to end sin and death. That is nonsense from a Jewish perspective. the verse is …that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.

God is bringing salvation, not the Messiah. This is evident from the verse you quoted.

 

[Valke2]

“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

And of course we believe that God is talking to Israel in this verse. Israel will be as a light for the nations…