A decent talk

[FaithofAbraham]

“It is too light a thing that you should be my servant
to raise up the tribes of Jacob
and to bring back the preserved of Israel;
I will make you as a light for the nations,
that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”

Messiah brings God’s Salvation to the earth, so he is saving the earth with God’s salvation. Even a person who saves a kitten from being stuck in a tree is savior to that kitten in his own little way. But that person is only allowed to do it by God, since God is in control of everything.

Jews could easily see that Jesus is human and acting as God on earth as Moses did, just as I as a Muslim do, without making him a deity.

And that Jesus is a savior by the power of God, not that Jesus is God the ultimate savior of everyone, even of Jesus as the Book of Hebrews says. Moses was also a savior to Israel by the power of God when he led them from Egypt.

So there is no such Jewish Law that says Messiah isn’t a savior, since as we see it says that he is a savior by the power of God. We kind of have to apply some common sense so as not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Valke2]

Jews could easily see that Jesus is human and acting as God on earth as Moses did, just as I as a Muslim do, without making him a deity.
.

Except that Messianic Jews, which are the Jews you have been obsessing over, do not see Jesus as a human acting as God on earth (Moses was not acting as God on earth, btw). They see Jesus as Christians see him. As God come to earth in the flesh.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Except that Messianic Jews, which are the Jews you have been obsessing over, do not see Jesus as a human acting as God on earth (Moses was not acting as God on earth, btw). They see Jesus as Christians see him. As God come to earth in the flesh.

Hey if you don’t want to discuss it, just don’t. No need to accuse me of obsessing when a lot of different subjects are being discussed here. I understand you are Jewish and sensitive to the issues but it’s not my fault that the basis of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam happens to rest on the shoulders of Jews. If we talk about religion, Jews are going to be mentioned a time or two, including their successes and failures.

Moses was acting as God to Aaron, and Aaron was acting as Prophet to the people.

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people; and it shall come to pass, that he shall be to thee a mouth, and thou (Moses) shalt be to him (Aaron) in God’s stead.

Jews could see Jesus that way and teach their fellow Jews to do the same, rather than persecuting them and trying to shame them into denying Jesus as Messiah and the salvation he brings from God.

 

[Valke2]

Hey if you don’t want to discuss it, just don’t. No need to accuse me of obsessing when a lot of different subjects are being discussed here. I understand you are Jewish and sensitive to the issues but it’s not my fault that the basis of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam happens to rest on the shoulders of Jews. If we talk about religion, Jews are going to be mentioned a time or two, including their successes and failures.

Moses was acting as God to Aaron, and Aaron was acting as Prophet to the people.

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people; and it shall come to pass, that he shall be to thee a mouth, and thou (Moses) shalt be to him (Aaron) in God’s stead.

Jews could see Jesus that way and teach their fellow Jews to do the same, rather than persecuting them and trying to shame them into denying Jesus as Messiah and the salvation he brings from God.

Moses was not acting as God to anyone. There’s a difference between being a spokesman and acting as God. Jews who worship Jesus as their savior, a/k/a Christians, are not worshipping him as a man who was a spokesman for God. They are worshipping him as God. Big difference.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Moses was not acting as God to anyone. There’s a difference between being a spokesman and acting as God. Jews who worship Jesus as their savior, a/k/a Christians, are not worshipping him as a man who was a spokesman for God. They are worshipping him as God. Big difference.

When Moses spoke, should you accept what he said just as if God said it? Or should you not pay attention to Moses as much as God?

 

[swariffin]

When Moses spoke, should you accept what he said just as if God said it? Or should you not pay attention to Moses as much as God?

Dear FoA,

Moses made a mistake, and it costed him, that he could not enter the promised land, and died in Nebo.

 

[cascherman]

Moses was not acting as God to anyone. There’s a difference between being a spokesman and acting as God. Jews who worship Jesus as their savior, a/k/a Christians, are not worshipping him as a man who was a spokesman for God. They are worshipping him as God. Big difference.

Actually, if I remember correctly, in Exodus there is a place where Moses is called ‘like God’ to the Israelites.

*** ah correction- God said to Moses "I have made you like God to Pharaoh.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Dear FoA,

Moses made a mistake, and it costed him, that he could not enter the promised land, and died in Nebo.

Did that excuse the people from obeying his commands to them, as if he were God? Could they pick and choose?

 

[swariffin]

Did that excuse the people from obeying his commands to them, as if he were God? Could they pick and choose?

Dear FoA,

I was just saying that Moses was not God, and He should not made people think that he was God. When he made that mistake, he got the consequency.

 

[Valke2]

Actually, if I remember correctly, in Exodus there is a place where Moses is called ‘like God’ to the Israelites.

*** ah correction- God said to Moses "I have made you like God to Pharaoh.

Ok. But again, “like god” i.e., His spokesman is a lot different than being God. And it is clear that the plauges were not done by Moses, but by God. i.e. “And God did so. And a heavy insect swarm came to Pharoah’s house and his servants’ house…”

as for the verse “See, I’ve made you a god to pharoah, and Arron, your brothter, will be your prophet.”

It is “a god” not “like God”. And God goes on to explictly describe what will happen, stating that God (not Moses) will harden Pharoah’s heart, multiply wonders and signs, etc. (All this is set forth in the begining of Chapter 7 of Exodus/Shemot)

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Ok. But again, “like god” i.e., His spokesman is a lot different than being God. And it is clear that the plauges were not done by Moses, but by God. i.e. “And God did so. And a heavy insect swarm came to Pharoah’s house and his servants’ house…”

as for the verse “See, I’ve made you a god to pharoah, and Arron, your brothter, will be your prophet.”

It is “a god” not “like God”. And God goes on to explictly describe what will happen, stating that God (not Moses) will harden Pharoah’s heart, multiply wonders and signs, etc. (All this is set forth in the begining of Chapter 7 of Exodus/Shemot)

Moses acts as God to the people with God’s power, even though he is only a human. A proper reading of the NT says the same about Jesus, so there is no reason to reject Jesus or the NT on that basis since it never says Jesus is God, only that he acts like God to the people same as Moses did.

 

[Valke2]

Moses acts as God to the people with God’s power, even though he is only a human. A proper reading of the NT says the same about Jesus, so there is no reason to reject Jesus or the NT on that basis since it never says Jesus is God, only that he acts like God to the people same as Moses did.

Again, that is an interesting interpetation, but when you speak about Jews who accept Jesus, you are talking about Jews who accpet him as a Divine Savior. They are not saying “Jesus is like Moses in that He was a spokesman for God.” That’s your interpetation of the Christian Bible, but you can’t use that interpetation and criticize Jews for rejecting Jews who accept Jesus. Because they are not accepting Jesus under the terms you outline.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Again, that is an interesting interpetation, but when you speak about Jews who accept Jesus, you are talking about Jews who accpet him as a Divine Savior. They are not saying “Jesus is like Moses in that He was a spokesman for God.” That’s your interpetation of the Christian Bible, but you can’t use that interpetation and criticize Jews for rejecting Jews who accept Jesus. Because they are not accepting Jesus under the terms you outline.

I would rather see Jews accept Jesus with Trinity than not at all. They may be incorrect about the deity nature of Jesus but as Messiah he represents God’s Word on earth anyway, like Moses. So the end result is the same, at least they are not denying him.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

That’s your interpetation of the Christian Bible, but you can’t use that interpetation and criticize Jews for rejecting Jews who accept Jesus. Because they are not accepting Jesus under the terms you outline.

To address that specifically, why not? Other Jews could see it the way I do and accept Jesus as human Messiah. They could acknowledge that Messiah is not failed nor discouraged in Isaiah 42 because though he is been rejected for a while in Isaiah 53, he still triumphs in the end.

Besides, who is Malachi talking about here in reference to Gentiles? Buddha, Vishnu? No, it could only be a pure offering through Jesus since he is the only one Gentiles all around the world follow that fits in the Jewish context.

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same My name is great among the nations; and in every place offerings are presented unto My name, even pure oblations; for My name is great among the nations, saith the LORD of hosts.

Malachi 1:12 But ye profane it, in that ye say: ‘The table of the LORD is polluted, and the fruit thereof, even the food thereof, is contemptible.’

 

[planten]

Dear FoA,

I was just saying that Moses was not God, and He should not made people think that he was God. When he made that mistake, he got the consequency.

We Muslims do not believe that Moses made any mistake. He was not punished. His people let him down. They refused to enter the promised land. This is proved by the Quran and the bible OT. IT was not Moses fault.

 

[Valke2]

To address that specifically, why not? Other Jews could see it the way I do and accept Jesus as human Messiah. They could acknowledge that Messiah is not failed nor discouraged in Isaiah 42 because though he is been rejected for a while in Isaiah 53, he still triumphs in the end.

They could. But this is not the belief of Messianic Jews. It is not the belief of Jews. So what other Jews are left thatwould share this blief?

Besides, who is Malachi talking about here in reference to Gentiles? Buddha, Vishnu? No, it could only be a pure offering through Jesus since he is the only one Gentiles all around the world follow that fits in the Jewish context.

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same My name is great among the nations; and in every place offerings are presented unto My name, even pure oblations; for My name is great among the nations, saith the LORD of hosts.

We can exchange verse interpetation all day, bu tthat doesn’t change the fact that when we are talking about Jews who accept Jesus, we are talking about Jews who accept Jesus as Divine Savior, and not as a human messiah. I have asked this very question to every Messianic Jew who has posted here and on other boards or chat rooms. And the universal answer is that they believe Jesus is the Messiah and God.

But as long as we’re talking Malachi, I agree that this verse is a scathing condemnation against Israel. He’s railing against Israel’s indifference to God. Jews were not the only people worshipping the one God. A close reading of Abraham confirms this. When Abraham resuces Lot the King of ??? can’t remember but he’s a king of a nation other than Jews, offers sacrifice to God.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

We Muslims do not believe that Moses made any mistake. He was not punished. His people let him down. They refused to enter the promised land. This is proved by the Quran and the bible OT. IT was not Moses fault.

In the OT Moses hit the rock and didn’t speak to it and for that he wasn’t allowed to enter the Promised Land. Where is this discussed in the Quran?

 

[FaithofAbraham]

They could. But this is not the belief of Messianic Jews. It is not the belief of Jews. So what other Jews are left thatwould share this blief?

Jews who currently don’t could see Jesus differently could accept him as Messiah, but not a deity. And Jews who do accept him as a deity might see maybe they are going to excess and keeping fellow Jews from accepting him.

We can exchange verse interpetation all day, bu tthat doesn’t change the fact that when we are talking about Jews who accept Jesus, we are talking about Jews who accept Jesus as Divine Savior, and not as a human messiah. I have asked this very question to every Messianic Jew who has posted here and on other boards or chat rooms. And the universal answer is that they believe Jesus is the Messiah and God.

Malachi 1:12 But ye profane it, in that ye say: ‘The table of the LORD is polluted, and the fruit thereof, even the food thereof, is contemptible.’

Yeah I know most do that, other Jews could see Jesus as a human prophet who acted with God’s authority and was like God to the people as Moses was, and guide Messianics in that direction. Rather than rejecting Jesus completely.

Who else could it be talking about in reference to pure Gentile worship all over the world, and one that most Jews turn their noses up at?

 

[Valke2]

Now I can’t stop studying Malachi:

There’s a disptue in the Talmud over 1:11. According to its plain (pshat) meaning. One side concludes that the nations of the world, referred to in this verse, recognized God as the God who ruled over their own deities (“the God of gods”). Rabbi Jonathan, a 3rd century Babylonian sage who lived in the land of Israel, could not accept the plain meaning of this verse and interpreted it instead in the following manner: “This [verse] refers to the scholars who devote themselves to the study of Torah in whatever place they are: [God says] ‘I account it unto them as though they burnt and presented offerings to my name’.”

Maimonides accepts the former opinion but gives it a philosophical twist. He claims that the nations of the world recognize God because their deliberations have led them to consider God the prime mover. (Guide to the Perplexed Part 1 chapter 36)

The conflict between the plain meaning and the midrashic interpretation of this verse reflects a conflict as old as the Jewish tradition, namely whether people outside of the Jewish tradition had the ability to recognize God. The book of Malachi, as well as other prophetic books like the book of Jonah seem well aware of this possibility. uscj.org/israelcenter/haftarahEdit.php?id=21

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Now I can’t stop studying Malachi:

There’s a disptue in the Talmud over 1:11. According to its plain (pshat) meaning. One side concludes that the nations of the world, referred to in this verse, recognized God as the God who ruled over their own deities (“the God of gods”). Rabbi Jonathan, a 3rd century Babylonian sage who lived in the land of Israel, could not accept the plain meaning of this verse and interpreted it instead in the following manner: “This [verse] refers to the scholars who devote themselves to the study of Torah in whatever place they are: [God says] ‘I account it unto them as though they burnt and presented offerings to my name’.”

Are there any other examples where prophets identified Jews as The Nations? As far as I know that’s only a term for Gentiles.

יא כִּי מִמִּזְרַח-שֶׁמֶשׁ וְעַד-מְבוֹאוֹ, גָּדוֹל שְׁמִי בַּגּוֹיִם, וּבְכָל-מָקוֹם מֻקְטָר מֻגָּשׁ לִשְׁמִי, וּמִנְחָה טְהוֹרָה: כִּי-גָדוֹל שְׁמִי בַּגּוֹיִם, אָמַר יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת