A Diocese Smells the Coffee: Starts Planning for Decline of the Ordinary Form and Growth of the TLM

[whatistrue]

Drastic change never happen overnight.

I am talking about churches and chapels that existed well before the OF was even thought of that don’t have kneelers, not necessarily ones that were built after. And what I meant was that the form of the rite (the book) you are participating in is not what caused the reverence you do or do not feel, it is the reverence that is actually in you (the heart), no matter the form of the rite.

 

[choose_to_love]

OK, Cillade, you know I love ya, in the fraternal sense of course, but you started your exchange with St. Purl by claiming St.P was saying something other than what he actually said - - “not exactly what you are trying to say” Post No. 8 I think

then, you interpret “particular” to mean “better” in St.P’s post no. 7 and your response in No. 51 I think. if you thought he meant better, which is not what ‘particular’ means, you could have asked him to clarify, rather than impose a different definition on his words so that it more easily supports what seems to be your preconceived ideas about EF adherents. Also I think it is impossible to fairly interpret St.P’s detailed comment by snipping that particular (see what I did there) part of it in isolation from the rest of the comment, including the use of particular in reference to specific geographic regions.

All that being said, of course there are EF adherents who will tell you “Latin is God’s language” or some other such, that the OF in invalid, etc., and there are those who hold that the one form or the other is superior for various reasons (and who knows, they may even - - gasp! pearl clutch! - - be right), but it seems to me that the point is that as of right now, both forms are valid and licit per the Church, and there is no reasonable prospect that either, or any of the other twenty-something rites and uses, is going anywhere; perhaps one should not assume that one’s correspondents here at CAF have the same positions regarding the EF/OF issues that one encounters IRL unless the correspondent says so.

 

[CilladeRoma]

I deal with many people because of my work in my parish and, by extension, my work in the diocese.

We get complaints of rude, unwelcoming behavior from our EF Mass attendees almost every week.
We have had women been told they “must” cover their heads, we had a couple who showed up in denim(not ripped, dirty or anything else, just jeans) be told they were not welcome to attend wearing jeans and anyone with small children has been told that if their children make any noise at all that they should be taken out of the sanctuary (and I mean ALL noise, not just screaming and crying) If a baby so much as giggles or babbles, an usher is there, shooing the mom out.

So, this is what I, and many people deal with from those who “prefer” the EF. And I am seeing it right in this thread also.

 

[CilladeRoma]

I asked a question and then went on to say how I, an OF loving Catholic, loves and appreciates our faith, that it is not an EF exclusive thing.

Now, maybe I did read too much into what @stpurl said, but instead of telling me what they actually meant, I got berated even more and told that I was “projecting”.

Now who is projecting?

 

[Elizabeth3]

We get complaints of rude, unwelcoming behavior from our EF Mass attendees almost every week.
We have had women been told they “must” cover their heads, we had a couple who showed up in denim(not ripped, dirty or anything else, just jeans) be told they were not welcome to attend wearing jeans and anyone with small children has been told that if their children make any noise at all that they should be taken out of the sanctuary (and I mean ALL noise, not just screaming and crying) If a baby so much as giggles or babbles, an usher is there, shooing the mom out.

So, this is what I, and many people deal with from those who “prefer” the EF. And I am seeing it right in this thread also.

To be fair, I don’t see it here in this thread. I see people stating why they hold the preference they do but I don’t see anyone saying everyone else has to hold that preference.

As far as the complaints coming into your diocese about EF Masses, it seems the priest in charge of these should be making sure everyone understands what is and what is not allowed. I fear a lot of EF Mass attendees get a lot of misinformation off the internet and it’s up to the priest to set them straight.

 

[CilladeRoma]

it seems the priest in charge of these should be making sure everyone understands what is and what is not allowed.

Sadly, the priest is one of the people who supports this behavior.
It is now in the hands of the Bishop, as he is also tired of the complaints. He will not even say the EF at this parish anymore as he got a 3 page email telling him all the things he did “wrong” the first time he was there.

 

[ThomasMT]

Why is it OK for all who have “horrible” OF experiences to talk about them, but the minute someone talks about their bad experiences with the EF and those who attend them, they are discounted?

First and foremost… peace be with you, CilladeRoma. While you and I (from what I have seen of your posts) may sit on opposite sides of the idiolological spectrum, I’m confident that we can both gain insight from our perspectives and exchanges. It is always my intention to offer mine with nothing short of all due respect.

Getting to the point… no, your experiences should not be discounted. Not at all. I suppose that I myself have been guilty of this, in general, as a knee jerk reaction. No, not in my response to your earlier post, for I saw that more as a generalization lacking specific incidents.
When there are specific complaints, they seem a bit frustratingly cliche.

How? Well, it seems to me that, to sum it up, complaints agains EM generally have to do with offense to the ego (EM is not man-centered enough). “The priest has his back to us (as opposed to God),” “I cant understand the language (too much effort required to follow translated missal),” “Laity are not able to serve in extraordinary function (deprived of need to feel relevant),” etc.

Complaints agains the OM have more to do with perceived offence to God (OM is not God-centered enough) “The priest has his back to God (who are we to command the priests attention before God)”, “woman are permitted in the sanctuary, (not about sexism! But because specific traditional and scriptural symbology is lost),” “The true presence is placed on the hand (crumbs filled with His true presence may fall to the ground and be stepped over)” etc.

Can there be ego-based, self- righteous motivations for the latter sentiment as well? Of course, but that doesnt change its validity. After all, the Mass is offered to God, not us. Now, if an OF enthusiast complained of the EF that people approaching the communion rail, should do so up the aisle on their knees… I would be silent and humbled! Again, the typically complaints I find more self-serving than God-serving. Just my opinion.

 

[stpurl]

It has been my experience that far more negativity is expressed toward those who prefer the EF, and for a far longer time.

I mean seriously. About 95% of Catholics throughout the US (and that’s a low estimate) attend the OF regularly and at least currently have no thought of doing otherwise, have done so for 50 years, etc. And yet there is a worry that the small numbers of people who prefer the EF are so powerful and so vindictive that they are just out there waiting to yank the OF from ‘everybody’? I’m sorry, to me that just appears like projection and a subconscious recognition that exactly what many of these people express as a fear was actually DONE to their fellow Catholics. It is sad that the instinctive reaction is for them to fear 'what was done to YOU will be done to us". . .

I’m as peaceable as the next person and while I love the EF I love a properly done OF equally, but one gets incredibly tired of the constant, "Well, YOU PEOPLE are the ones causing the problem’ vibe and the constant charges of holier-than-thouism. Frankly, after 50 years of turning the other cheek, most of us don’t have any ‘face’ left. And even that little is still getting kicked. Oh well. But it’s not surprising that people are finally starting to address (with charity, but even charity can ‘burn’, and is supposed to do so) long-entrenched faulty narratives. It may not look like “The Church of Nice” but it isn’t mean, and it isn’t wrong.

 

[CilladeRoma]

No, not in my response to your earlier post, for I saw that more as a generalization lacking specific incidents.

Your first reply to me was exactly the same sort of tripe I get from people in my diocese.
You continue to discount my experiences with this post.
The fact that you can’t see it or understand it, is also the same thing I get form the people in my diocese. Them I have to deal with, as it is my job.
You, I don’t have to deal with, and I am choosing not to, after this post.
Good day, sir.

 

[stpurl]

Funny, I didn’t use ‘projection’ in my post (and I wasn’t referring to you specifically in any case) until AFTER the post where you talked about being told you were projecting.

I know you have had your experiences and I’ve had mine, but I am going out here to say that I am not accusing you of projection in any way, shape, or form.

I’m just asking for the same consideration you ask for yourself. And maybe a little less taking it personally on both our parts, as certainly on my part I am not making this personal to you.

 

[CilladeRoma]

’m sorry, to me that just appears like projection and a subconscious recognition that exactly what many of these people express as a fear was actually DONE to their fellow Catholics.

Nothing was “done” to fellow Catholics. The Church made changes. Maybe they shouldn’t have, who can say? But the whole Church thought for a time that the EF was abrogated, as that is what usually happens when something new is promulgated.

Now, three popes later, Benedict XVI said otherwise and we have to move forward. But this attitude that Catholics were “robbed” and forced to endure is just getting old and tired.

 

[CilladeRoma]

but I am going out here to say that I am not accusing you of projection in any way, shape, or form.

I never said you did.
I said I have been accused of it.
I am going to stop replying to you also, it is getting no where.
In fact, this thread just reinforces my decision to say away from everything related to the EF on this board and in real life.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

We get complaints of rude,

So, this is what I, and many people deal with from those who “prefer” the EF. And I am seeing it right in this thread also.

In all charity, I have been on this forum for quite a while and have read through many posts and threads regarding both forms of the Mass and many other topics regarding Mass and I have to say arguing, and rude, unwelcoming comments are found on both sides of the spectrum, by those who prefer the EF and those who prefer the OF.

I recently attended a parish that is pretty progressive and very “Spirit of Vatican II” (has been for years) and they had just recently had a new priest assigned to them. At the Mass I was attending, he apologized for not saying the previous weekend Mass the way the parishioners wanted it and he would do his best to get it to their liking. It seems many people were upset because he was “too” traditional. How many times have we heard of that happening in the news? Pretty frequent.

The point of what I am saying is that rudeness, complaining, unwelcome attitudes in the Catholic church do not only come from those who prefer the EF but is rather part of the sin nature in all of us. No one group of Catholics are worse than others. Rather maybe it is how we feel about that group of people, our disagreeing with their thoughts, that causes us to think they are worse, so we put them in a category of “worse people”.

Peace of Christ and God bless.

 

[Elizabeth3]

It is now in the hands of the Bishop, as he is also tired of the complaints. He will not even say the EF at this parish anymore as he got a 3 page email telling him all the things he did “wrong” the first time he was there.

Hopefully, he will be successful at changing minds and hearts. Although, I don’t think he should keep from saying the EF just because of criticism. It’s his flock who needs shepherded in the right direction rather than letting them shepherd him.

 

[PetraG]

It has been my experience that far more negativity is expressed toward those who prefer the EF, and for a far longer time.

Well, it isn’t a competition. One actually exacerbates the other.

What on earth–why are we in foxholes over this? Where did that come from? Archbishop Sample thinks it comes from the temptation that will always be thrown in the path to trip up those who thirst for holiness or who love the Mass. That is his experience, though, as a bishop: that is, that what ought to be a source of grace and lushness coming from the fountain of all grace is instead a source of division. It should not be that way. When we see “the other side does it,” that shouldn’t be taken as an indictment particular to them. It should be taken as a warning to all of us that we, the Church, are under a seige from the one who hates us. The answer is not to retreat to foxholes against each other. The answer is to refuse the temptation of the one who seeks to divide us.

 

[PetraG]

We get complaints of rude, unwelcoming behavior from our EF Mass attendees almost every week.
We have had women been told they “must” cover their heads, we had a couple who showed up in denim(not ripped, dirty or anything else, just jeans) be told they were not welcome to attend wearing jeans and anyone with small children has been told that if their children make any noise at all that they should be taken out of the sanctuary (and I mean ALL noise, not just screaming and crying) If a baby so much as giggles or babbles, an usher is there, shooing the mom out.

Busybodies are such a pain in the neck, but especially when they think they have a quorum. Then watch out.

Busybodies even make the people who agree with their sentiments wince…or maybe I should say especially those who agree with them? Who wants someone representing what you love and being an utter pain in the neck about it? It is like watching the servers pour vinegar on a banquet.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

anyone with small children has been told that if their children make any noise at all that they should be taken out of the sanctuary

Our priest in our Novus Ordo parish recently came down on families for not taking their children out when they are crying. I know that is a debatble subject and another topic, whether they should be taken out or not. Just saying, it isn’t all one sided.

 

[CilladeRoma]

I’m not just talking about crying babies. I think that any child who is screaming and crying should be taken out, not for the parishes sake, but for the child.

I am talking about any noise at all, even cooing and babbling.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I’m not just talking about crying babies. I think that any child who is screaming and crying should be taken out, not for the parishes sake, but for the child.

I am talking about any noise at all, even cooing and babbling.

I understand, and I realize this is what you are seeing in your particular parish and I don’t doubt it but that does not mean it happens at all EF Masses. Most traditionalists are very family friendly and many have the motto “if your parish isn’t crying, it’s dying”, so it could be ushering parents out when their child is even just cooing is something that is just one person’s decision at your parish.

Long before coming back to the Catholic church, and our family was young, we were at a protestant church and our baby burped, loudly during the sermon. Later the pastor came up to us and said, did you know we have a Sunday school. That only happened at that one church, we didn’t experience that at any other church and our baby made many noises in churches after that, so I always figured that pastor had the issue with the noise.

Perhaps someone at your parish has that similar problem because I would suspect it is hard on those families attending the EF Mass at your parish also, always hoping their child doesn’t make a noise. I wouldn’t think it is something all the EF parishioners want.

 

[choose_to_love]

Somewhat OT, but has the bishop considered inviting in the FSSP or the ICK? I take it you are referring to a diocesan EF. Pro’s: Many of those who want to attend EF will go, thus freeing up the OF parishes. Two, since they are invited in, and filling (perhaps) a need, those who go will tone it down (on the unreasonable takes like you have cited) for at least a while, and then 3) the FSSP/ICK pastor will be able to address the unreasonable positions that the diocesan priest seems unable or unwilling to correct.

Is the priest a young priest? Is this Mass already supposed to be the accommodation to those who would like an EF?