A Diocese Smells the Coffee: Starts Planning for Decline of the Ordinary Form and Growth of the TLM

[Brendan_64]

Lastly, I suspect that the appeal of the Latin Mass has less to with the language itself and more with the sacred, reverent rubics.

And the stillness and the silence. I think this space helps the individual encounter the divine.

 

[Crusader13]

There is nothing wrong with saying and thinking that one thing is better or more efficacious than another. The real problem stems from those who take offense at being told that other people prefer something over that which they’ve come to love and embrace. They wrongly assume that simply because someone says “I think “A” is better.” that they are in fact saying “I am better because I like A over B.”

 

[tafan2]

I don’t know anyone who wants to see the EF go away, require that everyone receive Communion standing and in their hand, hold hands during the Our Father, use the orans position, and have a rock band at every Mass

Yes, but many if us lived through a rather lengthy period in our lives where such things did occur.
Wanting the EF go away: that was default position if most bishops for a couple of decades
Communion in the tongue: when my older kids were being prepared for their first communion they were told they could not receive on the tongue. This was common in the 80s and 90s.
Hold hands during the Our Father: we had a pastor who made it seem like the new requirement if our parish

What you may not appreciate us that many if us who lean towards a more traditional approach remember vividly how progressive liturgists treated us for 20 years or so. So while I agree with your thoughts about needing more charity, the problem most certainly did not start with traditionalists.

 

[stpurl]

Thank you. That expresses it perfectly.

Obviously if there are two things of equal validity but a person prefers one, they don’t think that just because they PREFER the one that the other is terrible.

I’m a tea lover. I am extremely partial to Chinese black tea. . .Keemun. I also like another black tea, Indian Darjeeling.

A lot of people prefer Darjeeling. To them it is the champagne of teas.

Fewer people prefer the Keemun but to those who do, it is beyond champagne, it is like drinking the essence of rubies. . .a cerebral experience.

But if I tell some that while I like black tea I happen to prefer Keemun to Darjeeling, that the taste of Darjeeling to ME is inferior to the taste of Keemun, they will think I dislike Darjeeling.

But nothing could be further from the truth! I like Darjeeling very much. If I don’t have Keemun, I will happily drink Darjeeling and praise its taste.

Unfortunately, people don’t see that a preference for the EF doesn’t mean ‘distaste’ for the OF. That if, for example, there is no EF available for me to attend, I will quite happily attend the (Praise be to God) OF in my new parish which is wonderfully reverent.

That I would prefer, if I had opportunity, to attend an EF and would find it superior to the OF simply because of my own personal heritage, knowledge, personality type, etc. does not in any way make the OF I attend inferior!!

I don’t know how a person can express more clearly that a belief, regarding two good things, in preferring ONE over the other doesn’t make the thing not preferred somehow bad!

 

[Peeps]

Well, if you’re in the Chicago area, (Barrington?), it seems like there are 8-10 Latin Masses around the area. How do you know what their attendance is at each location each weekend? Why do you think that it’s 400 total at just one parish?
http://www.latinmasstimes.com/Illinois

Not in Chicago or the burbs. Just in Northern Illinois. Plenty of small cities, and I’m in one of them.

And I know the number because I am involved with the Latin Mass as occasional organist.

 

[Peeps]

And the stillness and the silence. I think this space helps the individual encounter the divine.

And others encounter God in the midst of a joyful noise, especially music, but also the spoken liturgy and prayers, as well as a meaningful homily, and even announcements about opportunities for worship and service to God.

 

[Shasta-Rose]

Realistically, I don’t see all of the Catholics in America running out to learn Latin. Just not going to happen. I think most of us want to understand what we are hearing, which would be our own tongue, and if we don’t understand some other language, does it even matter what language that is? Basically, to us it would be gibberish.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

That’s what missals are for, and once you have used that missal enough, you learn what those prayers mean…

 

[CatholicSooner]

I just want to add that if you study the history of the roman rite, it will become quite obvious that what happened in the 60s to the mass is breaking with tradition of the mass. Every revision of the rite before Paul Vi’s mass was to add to the mass or modify it by addition. The NO mass turn the whole mass on it’s head. And not just because it is in the vernacular. That is the least of my worries. It was all the subtractions and changes of tradition.

I pray that the NO and the TLM can come together and form what the Vatican II recommendations actually recommended because it would be a beautiful gift to God

 

[Cirdan_XII]

It is the human heart, and teaching that heart the content of the faith.

In my opinion, Latin is a language that very much speaks to the heart.

 

[CilladeRoma]

To your heart. It sounds harsh to me, unless it is being sung, and then only if sung well.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

That’s the historical reality of movements that have protested the guidance and/or authority of the official magisterium.

Where does it say in this twitter anything like rebellion against the Holy See?

Demand the Aramaic mass!”

I doubt it was in Aramaic given it was Passover. Biblical Hebrew would have been in use too, especially in times of pilgrimage and major Jewish feasts.
People dont go to TLM to hear Latin. They go to Worship God in Latin. Just like people go to Worship God in the OF in the Vernacular.

stem the decline of the Church.

The decline is not due to either Mass, to before or after VII. IMHO it is due to the way the secular world has developed over the 20th C. Post and during war. We had the most violent century coupled with exponential growth in technology and infrastructure. We then got media and advertising and several shifts in popular culture with each succeeding generation.

If you want to see what the future looks like, pay attention to the youth. I think that is why this diocese can see this happening.

This , very much this. Someone within that Diocese has done their homework, done the leg work, seen where a large portion of its people will be at Mass in the upcoming decades. This homework has led to that Diocese becoming prepared, initiating education , resources and support to promote traditional liturgy. Well done for having this foresight. There is nothing in that perspective reported that is negative. I am not sure why some people are reacting less then favorably to this, rather then applauding the foresight to see what the Diocese will need in succession planning.
The future of the Church in the Kingdom of God on earth is its young people.

Apprecaition for the faith is not dependant on what form of Mass or what devotions one chooses to practice.

Actually it can be dependent on form of Mass, because a Catholic might identify with a particular form and understand it better and be able to more effectively worship God. If it is OF, great, if it is EF, great, if it is through both, great.
i do think the question should be asked, why do such a large group of young people identify with the TLM? What is drawing them to it over the OF?
It has to be the work of the Holy Spirit in drawing people to the Mass. God has His reasons.

The work of the evil one is pretty clear in all this divisiveness.

Our priest in our Novus Ordo parish recently came down on families for not taking their children out when they are crying. I know that is a debatble subject and another topic, whether they should be taken out or not. Just saying, it isn’t all one sided.

Our Priests love to hear children making noise, it means the church is alive and growing.

 

[whatistrue]

I don’t know how a person can express more clearly that a belief, regarding two good things, in preferring ONE over the other doesn’t make the thing not preferred somehow bad!

Most of the time I would agree wholeheartedly with this. However, there are, and I am sure that you have seen it as well, where some individuals do in fact say exactly that in so many words. Those are the people who I have an issue with, not someone who prefers one or the other but doesn’t belittle anyone else’s choice. One is “I prefer X”, which is fine; the other is “X is inherently more (complete/reverent/true/pleasing to God/etc.) than Y”, which is not.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Correlation doesn’t necessarily equal causation. That’s why I don’t agree with the assumption that Vatican II and the Novus Ordo is the root cause for the decline of the Church.

I dont agree with the assumption the Pre Vat II Mass is the root cause, I believe it is a loss of faith. The decrease of faith whilst the growth in the secular world and its temptations increased. There was major trauma in the 20th C through several wars and things like the Great Depression, the threat of Nukes being used. I watched a documentary last night on the Russian who had the decision to respond to a perceived nuke attack, with one back. He remained steady and calm and refused to respond, given the massive loss of life that would have happened. A Nuclear holocaust. Over 20 million dead in the first few strikes.
This happened in 1983. That is only 30 odd years ago. WE have him to thank for literally saving the world from a nuclear holocaust.

 

[stpurl]

I have seen it. I’ve seen it more in the OF than the EF, which seems to surprise people, possibly because the loudness of the “EF people claim it is so much better” drowns out the less loud but far more frequent, "OF is so much better because we can understand it, because the priest faces us, because we have active participation, because we know what’s going on’ etc. etc.

Oh, some people don’t think that statements like that are, in essence, claiming how much BETTER the OF is than the EF? Well, they are. And the thing is, you don’t see people who enjoy both liturgies (but prefer the EF) going off like missiles over how ‘elitist’ and ‘disparaging’ those statements are, because we recognize that so long as people do NOT continue on with, “and people who like Latin are hypocrites and fools who just want to playact and doze through Mass”, that ‘preferring’ their vernacular Mass is their PREFERENCE and that they aren’t saying a Latin Mass is somehow inferior.

It’s a shame that we don’t get reciprocity but again, I think a lot of OF devotees are just more prone to ‘see’ or ‘hear’ disparagement of ‘their’ Mass right now, because for some 40 years there was simply no ‘choice’, it was OF or nothing for 99% of US Catholics. And to hear now people saying, "hey, if there is a choice I think I might like the EF’ just hits them where they live.

Again, I’ve said before that in modern society now a lot of people have so internalized what they LIKE into being who they ARE, that somebody who says, “OK, but I’d like something different if I have a choice” come across as hateful, not because they like something different, but because they are seen as actively disliking and dismissing the PERSON himself or herself.

 

[whatistrue]

It’s a shame that we don’t get reciprocity

My experience is very different. I see many more people who state flat out that the OF is inherently less than the EF, and very few who claim that the EF is inherently less than the OF. Both groups are wrong - can we at least agree on that?

 

[JoeShlabotnik]

“The official gave permission for us to report this, but not to identify the diocese.”

This is kind of like when Donald Trump says, “There are some people who say that the Ukraine interfered in the 2016 election…”
Who are these “some people?”

 

[pnewton]

This was a non-story from the beginning of “A diocese…” There is no coffee brewing here. I may be cynical, but I wonder if the priest who wrote this even considered for one minute that his one source in this one diocese may have used him and his blog to advance an agenda in his diocese.

Interestingly enough, I attended a parish there recently and wonder if there is a connection. However, the one I went to seemed to have fewer people. My hosts said they were moving to another parish as well, though his reasoning was more pragmatic, that is, the length of the Mass with the two new priests. The point is, anecdotal tales may mislead as easy as they enlighten. It is best not to try too hard to look for what you want to see.

 

[CradleRC58]

Nice !

My father liked him very much as well. As do I !

 

[Peeps]

In my opinion, Latin is a language that very much speaks to the heart.

Your opinion is just that–YOUR opinion.

MY opinion is that Latin is a foreign language that I don’t understand, and reading a Missal is not the same as hearing my own language and understanding.