A Diocese Smells the Coffee: Starts Planning for Decline of the Ordinary Form and Growth of the TLM

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OurLadyofSorrows said:
I dont agree with the assumption the Pre Vat II Mass is the root cause, I believe it is a loss of faith. The decrease of faith whilst the growth in the secular world and its temptations increased. There was major trauma in the 20th C through several wars and things like the Great Depression, the threat of Nukes being used. I watched a documentary last night on the Russian who had the decision to respond to a perceived nuke attack, with one back. He remained steady and calm and refused to respond, given the massive loss of life that would have happened. A Nuclear holocaust. Over 20 million dead in the first few strikes.
This happened in 1983. That is only 30 odd years ago. WE have him to thank for literally saving the world from a nuclear holocaust.
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Agreed! Our current situation has been over a hundred years in the making.
 
Peeps said:
MY opinion is that Latin is a foreign language that I don’t understand
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Maybe this reflects a deeper crisis in our education system.

To me Latin is a language that is timeless and universal, and that is immune to fashionable twisting os its meaning and PC formulations. It is thus an honest language not as afflicted by cynicisms as English
 
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Cirdan_XII said:
Maybe this reflects a deeper crisis in our education system.
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The crisis in our education system is that in cities like mine, only 15% manage to achieve the MINIMAL level of competence on standardized tests in Math and Reading.

In other words, they can’t read plain American English or Spanish! And they can’t do basic arithmetic!

How the heck are they going to hold down any kind of job?!! Would YOU hire someone who can’t read or do arithmetic (adding/subtraction/multiplication/division) to work in a hospital, a restaurant, a store, a construction site, a farm, a childcare center, YOUR house or business?

The crisis is in families who, for many reasons, are not preparing their children adequately for school. And the crisis is not limited to the underprivileged, because the standardized tests are administered to all students in all the schools, including the schools in the “good neighborhoods,” and the magnet schools that accept '“gifted” students. The scores in these schools are slightly better, but definitely not impressive. In other words, putting more money into the schools is not the answer to underachievement. The answer starts at home, with two parents and a loving family.
 
I agree! In homes now the common sight is a 1 year old with a tablet or momS phone. The adults walk around or sit on the couch glued to a phone or a tablet or the TV. At the dinner table it is the same. It is such a shame that parents seem to have no time for their children anymore, and vice versa. A child learns SO MUCH simply from their parents(especially mom) just speaking to them. This is neglected though, due to the rise in technology in our lives.
Technology is a good and useful thing, when used properly. It has been so abused though, that people can not live without it.
 
It’d be great if the Ordinary Form was celebrated in a more traditional way (incense, choir, no guitars etc.) but I don’t see any reason why the Extraordinary Form should make a come-back. Sure, some people find it helpful in their spiritual growth and there is nothing wrong with that, but the Church doesn’t need the Extraordinary Form anymore.
 
A decline in honeybees and a rise in Monarch butterflies would not imply that Monarch butterflies are going to replace the honeybees, let alone that the world will automatically be a better place when there are more butterflies than bees.
If attendance at the OF were rising, be sure that attendance at the EF and the number of priests learning how to offer it would be going up faster than is the case now.
In other words: news of the decline of OF attendance is SAD NEWS. Anybody who thinks otherwise really needs to ask themselves why, I’d say.
Hoping for a rise in devotion in the Church generally would only help numbers at the EF. Thinking a drop in OF attendance is a good thing is practically the same as taking joy in knowing mortal sin is on the rise and souls that Our Lord thirsts for are being lost.
 
Pope St. John Paul 2 and Pope Benedict, at the least, disagree with you.

Plus, something which has existed for hundreds of years and has never ‘stopped’ existing isn’t ‘making a comeback’. What should be said is that more people are becoming aware of its existence and checking it out.
 
Re your last sentence: EXACTLY! My parents read to us before we went to school.

Many teachers lament that they’re glorified babysitters because the parent(s) tell them that it’s their (i.e. the teacher’s) job to teach the child(ren). FALSE. Education begins at home.

Good food for thought:

Aristotle was once met by a lady with a small boy. She asked him at what age she should begin educating her son. He asked her how old is her son. “Five.”, she said. Aristotle replied, “Madam, you are five years too late.” 😖
 
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Peeps said:
MY opinion is that Latin is a foreign language that I don’t understand, and reading a Missal is not the same as hearing my own language and understanding.
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Cirdan_XII said:
Maybe this reflects a deeper crisis in our education system.

To me Latin is a language that is timeless and universal, and that is immune to fashionable twisting os its meaning and PC formulations. It is thus an honest language not as afflicted by cynicisms as English
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I’m not sure what the state of the educational system has to do with the Latin Mass, one way or the other. The EF was the only Mass when literacy in Christendom was extremely low. As recently as 1820, only 12% of the people in the world could read. Appreciating the Latin Mass is enhanced by Latin scholarship, obviously, but it does not require a high level of scholarship.

Most of the people who ever heard a Mass in Latin would have encountered it as a foreign language they couldn’t understand. Well, people who don’t know any German still know what Gesundheit means. People who don’t know any French know what c’est la vie means. People who don’t know any Yiddish will admit that there just aren’t any words in English that can replace chutzpah or klutz.

The essential Latin in the Mass can be learned and heard without mastering Latin generally. That is the way it was usually done throughout history. If one reads the documents of Vatican II, however, the intention of the Church Fathers was to introduce some of the vernacular language without losing the experience of praying in Latin. One does not have to be a Latin scholar to do that.

It is great to have a background in Latin if one wants to fully appreciate the EF. It really is not necessary to even intend to master Latin in order to appreciate the EF, though. Don’t get me wrong: a background in Latin is great simply for mastering grammar and gaining an appreciation of the Romance languages. It is well worth studying, even though it isn’t in daily use. I’m just saying that nobody ought to be scared away from the EF because they’re “not good at languages.” That’s OK. You don’t have to be!
 
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I agree but where do you see people disparaging the ordinary form ?

On forums ?
 
Pretty much, since that was the situation being discussed. Why? Does it matter where?
 
Just curious. Internet forums is the only place I ever see it as well.
 
CradleRC58 said:
Just curious. Internet forums is the only place I ever see it as well.
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I’ve seen it in person as well. But, you’d have to find yourself talking to a rad trad who thinks you are of the same mind as they are…
 
It’s kind of weird, but disparaging the OF often seems to be what is ‘implied’ by saying that one likes or prefers the EF.

Whereas when one says that one likes or prefers the OF, that’s considered to be such a truth that it just stands there like the Trinity or some such dogma. Seldom (I don’t say never), seldom does a ‘real’ (as opposed to troll/sock puppet) person come on after a person comes on to say, “I like the OF, it’s done well at my church and I like the vernacular” and say, “Well I guess you really must HATE the EF and despise the people who attend it” or ask with great disdain, “well how CAN you like something that is so cheap and tawdry”. . .

But a person who says, “I like the EF and Latin and I find the Mass wonderful” will almost certainly, and nearly immediately, be met with, “how CAN ANY person UNDERSTAND it?” "Why would ANYBODY want to ‘sit through’ something in a language they don’t speak, not HEARING what’s going on anyway, not seeing what goes on, sitting there just blindly, stupidly, not paying attention, surrounded by holier-than-thou crazy Amish dressing women and controlling men and too many children’. . .
Yet THEY aren’t disparaging the EF. No, they’re just ‘telling it like it is’. . .

It’s all in one’s own perception. Criticism of what I like is found if you disagree with even the tinest bit. Criticism of what I DON"T like is simply, “telling the truth”.
 
Ha, this old thread I found pretty much backs up everything you just said.
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How Many Here Would Attend The Traditional Latin Mass If It Were Available ? Liturgy and Sacraments
All are welcome to vote in the poll, but the purpose is in hope those who have never attended one will vote yes or no. For those who may not know, H.H. Benedict XVI freed the use of the 1962 Missal of indult and any priest can now pray it without explicit permission of his Bishop. Assuming he can pray the Mass in a competent manner of course. Feel free to explain your answer. Thank you for taking time to vote
slight_smile
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Interesting seeing the pattern that unfolded in the replies. Firmly established after only 4-5 replies.

Btw…
The poll results are missing but are mentioned in the thread. 70%+ voted yes. Also worth noting, those voting no or not interested in attending an EF were the most vocal. A lot of the standard cliches and myths scattered throughout.
 
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