A Disturbing Mass

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I just didn’t mean to say something offending.

I just want to believe what is the truth, not just an opinion. Of course, that’s what you meant though.
 
Josh_Elzner said:
I just didn’t mean to say something offending.

I just want to believe what is the truth, not just an opinion. Of course, that’s what you meant though.
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I understand, and that is a noble and a good thing. But if you keep your mouth shut you may not come to those truths which you are seeking. Say what’s on your mind, be honest, and if you offend, apologize. We’re all Catholics, we forgive as we wish to be forgiven. 'cause we all put at least one foot in our mouth from time to time.

You’re fine, Josh. Keep talking, and don’t forget to listen.
 
“In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act.(3) In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, Mons. Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.” (Ecclesia Dei)

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html

Can you comment on that? Doesn’t John Paul II say that the act is schismatic?
 
Lisa44 said:
Why can’t the Pope keep the Mass on the straight and narrow? Is it really fair to say the Pope hates all the abuses of the Mass but yet they continue? If he wants them to stop why doesn’t he stop them? Why don’t the Bishops stop them?

Like, for instance, the Church can excommunicate the Society of St. Pius X and say its not a “valid Mass” or the Priests are not “validly ordained” or whatever the case may be.

Yet, all those Priests out there that are abusing the heck out of the Mass in every way immaginable they just…what? …get to continue doing that day after day?

Honestly, there is something strange going on don’t you think?
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There must be millions of priests and parishes out there, and probably tens of thousands of Bishops. Most of them, contrary to reports, do NOT commit lots of abuses. In my experience a good third of 'em at least haven’t committed ANY abuses that I’m aware of.

Abuse seems to be a problem particularly prevalent in America, and to a somewhat lesser extent Europe and the UK (and sadly some parts of Australia as well). And even then it seems to be concentrated in some parts of these countries rather than all of 'em. So don’t presume that your own experience is that of the whole country or the universal Church.

What organisation with a million employees is going to have every one of em, or anything like every one of them, be without fault?

I’m not saying the abuse should be tolerated - you certainly have every right (and even a duty) to complain. So do so, first to the priests concerned, then to their bishop, then on to the Papal Nuncio in your country and even to Rome if no-one else will help.

Just remember that there are over a billion Catholics in the world, so as with all large organisations you may not get immediate resolution.
 
Josh_Elzner said:
“In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act.(3) In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, Mons. Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.” (Ecclesia Dei)

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html

Can you comment on that? Doesn’t John Paul II say that the act is schismatic?
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Yes, I can. Pope Benedict XVI says no schism exists. His Motu Proprio is written towards an internal act of reconciliation within the Church.
 
maurin said:
Yes, I can. Pope Benedict XVI says no schism exists. His Motu Proprio is written towards an internal act of reconciliation within the Church.
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You cannot pit two papal writings against each other. John Paul II explicitly said that the priestly fraternity of Saint Pius X was in schism and Benedict XVI never rebuked this, saying they were not, but actually in the Church.

-“With great affliction the Church has learned of the unlawful episcopal ordination conferred on 30 June last by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, which has frustrated all the efforts made during the previous years to ensure the full communion with the Church of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X founded by the same Mons. Lefebvre.”

-“Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act.”

-“In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of *ceasing their support *in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that *formal adherence to the schism *is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.” (italics mine)

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html
 
One thing that has always helped me when I am at a very disturbing mass is to remember that Jesus gave us the mass and the Eucharist knowing that people were going to be disrespectful and distort it. Knowing all of that He still gave it to us because He loves us that much!
 
sauce said:
What is a NO Mass?

Only Protestants get dressed up for Church. And They stay all day some of them.
At Catholic Churches there’s a mad dash to the door.

Did anyone play the accordion?
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I’m so sorry that this is your experience. HOLD ON…there is a revival coming. Here in Las Vegas (of all places) a lot of Catholics get dressed up for church, the churches are FULL for all Masses and few leave early.

Have you been to Mass lately? Isn’t it that way where you live too? Just wait until the Latin Mass is said more commonly in parishes…you might not be able to get in.

Thanks be to God. Praise His Holy Name.
 
Josh_Elzner said:
You cannot pit two papal writings against each other. John Paul II explicitly said that the priestly fraternity of Saint Pius X was in schism and Benedict XVI never rebuked this, saying they were not, but actually in the Church.

-“With great affliction the Church has learned of the unlawful episcopal ordination conferred on 30 June last by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, which has frustrated all the efforts made during the previous years to ensure the full communion with the Church of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X founded by the same Mons. Lefebvre.”

-“Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act.”

-“In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of *ceasing their support *in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that *formal adherence to the schism *is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.” (italics mine)

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html
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I greatly regret to inform you that Archbishop Lefebvre has gone to his reward with God. He has been deceased for well over 2 years, I don’t know the exact date, but it can be looked up on the SSPX site. If you want to know more about this group you can look at my other postings in other areas…I’m sure there is a way to search for them according to writer.

Also, a schismatic act is not a schism…it is a schismatic act. I believe that is what you are refering to in Pope John Paul IIs writings. The Popes are in agreement. There is no schism…there never has been. It is reporters and sensationalists that blow this all out of proportion. Again, see my other writings.

Our Holy Father is trying to move all Christians together so the Church in again ONE body…and whole. It does no one any good for sensationalists to blow things out of proportion and destroy his work. Jesus is working through our Holy Father, lets support and pray for him…and the church.
 
Josh_Elzner said:
You cannot pit two papal writings against each other. John Paul II explicitly said that the priestly fraternity of Saint Pius X was in schism and Benedict XVI never rebuked this, saying they were not, but actually in the Church.

-“With great affliction the Church has learned of the unlawful episcopal ordination conferred on 30 June last by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, which has frustrated all the efforts made during the previous years to ensure the full communion with the Church of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X founded by the same Mons. Lefebvre.”

-“Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act.”

-“In the present circumstances I wish especially to make an appeal both solemn and heartfelt, paternal and fraternal, to all those who until now have been linked in various ways to the movement of Archbishop Lefebvre, that they may fulfil the grave duty of remaining united to the Vicar of Christ in the unity of the Catholic Church, and of *ceasing their support *in any way for that movement. Everyone should be aware that *formal adherence to the schism *is a grave offence against God and carries the penalty of excommunication decreed by the Church’s law.” (italics mine)

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_commissions/ecclsdei/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html
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Josh, declaring that the Society has committed a schismatic act is serious, yes, and Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre the Great weighed the consequences. But the Pope did not declare that the he or the Society is in schism. He does not say that “because of this act they are in schism.”

You are free to interpret Pope John Paul II anyway you’d like. But it’s probably not a good idea to state emphatically that he said something he did not say.
 
Hyacinth_II said:
I’m so sorry that this is your experience. HOLD ON…there is a revival coming. Here in Las Vegas (of all places) a lot of Catholics get dressed up for church, the churches are FULL for all Masses and few leave early.

Have you been to Mass lately? Isn’t it that way where you live too? Just wait until the Latin Mass is said more commonly in parishes…you might not be able to get in.

Thanks be to God. Praise His Holy Name.
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I don’t tend to write in abbreviations, so the NO thing had no meaning for me.
There is a visiting priest from the Philipines at my church and when he says Mass,
he reads a boring homily that is not interesting at all. He rushes through that. And can’t wait to get off the altar and head for the changing room. He does not greet the faithful.
He doesn’t care. He’s been doing this for for several years. People pick up on this.
He just wants to finish his doctorate. (Oy vey)

And the pastor is only interested in his particular ministry.
I think these problems (there’s no one there to correct the priests) are more
serious. They have personal growth problems, maybe even cultural type
things. I’m not entirely sure. But I find these things more disturbing. It has to do
with real faith and charity and community.

The new order of things doesn’t bother me. I love Ben 16. I think he’s a smart man.
Got a close look at him on his recent trip to America. About 20 - 30 feet away.
He’s just fabulous. He wants unity. We need to listen to him, I think.
 
Lisa44 said:
Hi:)
I went to a Mass last weekend and it was so disturbing. It was in a very old church in a very old parish run by Fransiscans. My husband and I were very uncomfortable but I did stay the whole Mass. Firstly, there were no kneelers. Secondly, there was a band seated in the area (sorry, I’m a new convert I dont know the terms so bear with me…) at the back of the church behind the lecturn and infront of the tabernacle. The members of the band were very casually dressed. Most of the people in the church were extremely casually dressed to the point of seeing women with VERY low cut tops, mini skirts…jeans, shorts t-shirts…the works.

Anyways…before the Mass started the Priest formed a circle with those in the band up in the area mentioned above. The held hands and prayed together.
I can’t list everything that happened, mostly it was the usual things, a lot of singing and guitar playing and I can critique the Mass well as I am not knowledgable enough to know the various parts well. But it was like a typical ‘variation’ of the NO Mass.

Anyways, I just couldn’t wait for it to be over. At the very end, the Priest gave the (gold vessel with the Eucharist in it) to a female in the band behind him who was dressed in a SKIN TIGHT polyester shirt and pants. This lady then turned around to put the vessel into the tabernacle, and as she did so she leaned and bent over to reach to the tabernacle exposing her bottom in skin tight pale coloured pants to the whole congregation.

It was just such an obscene sight I just almost felt ill. It was really unbelievable.

Now, this is where I get REALLY angry. You know, as a new convert I’m told I must be SOOO obedient to the Pope and the church, and not even criticize it when the Pope says we worship together with the Muslims. And YET, what the HECK is going on in the Catholic Church??? IF it is supposed to be SOOO righteous and SOOO Holy then what in God’s name is going on? (I’m not using the Lords name in vain I mean what I said).

This makes me so mad and to be honest, it makes me really wonder if I shouldn’t convert to the Orthodox church. If Catholic Priests are allowing the Mass to degenerate into a total disgrace then I am ashamed to be called a Catholic.
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Lisa, I’m sorry you witnessed a Mass like this. I’m a new convert too, and sometimes when I attend a liberal parish it bothers me too. There is only one solution, and that is to find a good conservative or traditional parish. It can still be Novus Ordo, but good Novus Ordo… like have you ever seen the Mass on EWTN? It’s NO but it’s reverent.

but please, don’t leave the Church over this. I know how you feel because it bothers me too. A LOT. But… these problems are happening because the devil is attacking the Church. He’d love it if we all just lost faith in it… but you know what Jesus told St Faustina? He said taht He is pleased with her trust in His representatives, despite everything.

the early Church had problems too!! many, many problems… it’s not a sign that the Church is not the ‘true Church’. Not at all.

I was baptized Eastern Orthodox as a child. They have their own problems, even though they aren’t liturgical. But… the reason I became Catholic is because of teh Pope. Jesus told Peter, “you are Peter [the rock] and on this rock I will build My Church”. And so He has. The devil is trying to destroy it… because he hates it. He’s trying to destroy the Mass because it is holy.

Just try to find a good parish, and pray for the Church. 🙂 offer it all up to God.
Lisa44 said:
Why can’t the Pope keep the Mass on the straight and narrow? Is it really fair to say the Pope hates all the abuses of the Mass but yet they continue? If he wants them to stop why doesn’t he stop them? Why don’t the Bishops stop them?

Like, for instance, the Church can excommunicate the Society of St. Pius X and say its not a “valid Mass” or the Priests are not “validly ordained” or whatever the case may be.

Yet, all those Priests out there that are abusing the heck out of the Mass in every way immaginable they just…what? …get to continue doing that day after day?

Honestly, there is something strange going on don’t you think?
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the Vatican IS trying to get rid of abuses. But the Church is worldwide… the Pope can only excommunicate individual priests or invalid movements, not a whole bunch of priests altogether. But he is trying to fix the problem. For example, they’re working on the new translation of the Mass… the Pope has said he encourages chant for liturgy, not the modern folk guitar music. It’s taking a while because the Pope is not a dictator. He has to work together with the bishops and the clergy.

we need to pray for them.
 
sauce said:
The new order of things doesn’t bother me. I love Ben 16. I think he’s a smart man.
Got a close look at him on his recent trip to America. About 20 - 30 feet away.
He’s just fabulous. He wants unity. We need to listen to him, I think.
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I feel blessed to be in this city that has so many priests that are gifted speakers… I also love to watch EWTN…

youtube.com/watch?v=MmNA-y8ayzo&feature=related

the homily at the daily mass is always good. I like to watch the Latin NO also which they often do.

I agree…UNITY…it is Jesus’ wish for us. Our Holy Father is working towards it. We need to help by praying and engaging fellow Christians in friendly conversation about our faith. This is the mission we are given at the end of each and every Mass.
 
On this radio site, they broadcast a homily of Fr. Mitch Pacwa about “disturbing Masses” FYI…

ustream.tv/recorded/1568601

keep tuned after the DJ stops his lingo…he will put on Fr. Mitch.
 
Lisa44 said:
Hi:)
I went to a Mass last weekend and it was so disturbing. It was in a very old church in a very old parish run by Fransiscans. My husband and I were very uncomfortable but I did stay the whole Mass. Firstly, there were no kneelers. That’s not good. Secondly, there was a band seated in the area (sorry, I’m a new convert I dont know the terms so bear with me…) at the back of the church behind the lecturn and infront of the tabernacle. The members of the band were very casually dressed. Most of the people in the church were extremely casually dressed to the point of seeing women with VERY low cut tops, mini skirts…jeans, shorts t-shirts…the works. Also not good. People need to respect the Real Presence.

Anyways…before the Mass started the Priest formed a circle with those in the band up in the area mentioned above. They held hands and prayed together. You sure this wasn’t Protestant? (rhetorical question)
I can’t list everything that happened, mostly it was the usual things, a lot of singing and guitar playing ugh and I can critique the Mass well as I am not knowledgable enough to know the various parts well. But it was like a typical ‘variation’ of the NO Mass.

Anyways, I just couldn’t wait for it to be over. At the very end, the Priest gave the (gold vessel with the Eucharist in it) to a female in the band behind him who was dressed in a SKIN TIGHT polyester shirt and pants. This lady then turned around to put the vessel into the tabernacle, and as she did so she leaned and bent over to reach to the tabernacle exposing her bottom in skin tight pale coloured pants to the whole congregation. That’s just sad/

It was just such an obscene sight I just almost felt ill. It was really unbelievable.

Now, this is where I get REALLY angry. You know, as a new convert I’m told I must be SOOO obedient to the Pope and the church, and not even criticize it when the Pope says we worship together with the Muslims. And YET, what the HECK is going on in the Catholic Church??? People are using the “spirit of Vatican II” as a justification of taking liberties with the Mass. It is not. If you actually read the documents, there is nothing in there that justifies this. In fact, even communion in the hand is specified to be by indult only! IF it is supposed to be SOOO righteous and SOOO Holy then what in God’s name is going on? (I’m not using the Lords name in vain I mean what I said).

This makes me so mad and to be honest, it makes me really wonder if I shouldn’t convert to the Orthodox church. Don’t, just find a respectable EF Mass around you, if you can. If Catholic Priests are allowing the Mass to degenerate into a total disgrace then I am ashamed to be called a Catholic. Call yourself a (nonschismatic) traditionalist Catholic. Much better ring to it in my opinion, and it clears you from all the abuses.
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I commented in bold.
 
Hi Lisa,

Who told you that Catholics have to be SOOO obedient and SOOO holy etc? 😃

It sounds like you were taught the faith by good conservative Catholics. Be thankful for that.

So many Catholics have stopped practicing their faith that many priests and bishops allow a lot more flexibility to people with “new ideas” to try to get them back to church. That’s what you saw at this mass.

You need to “shop around” for a more conservative / orthodox parish. Obviously you’re not a rocker who might be turned off by a more formal/stuffy mass, so you don’t need to go to parishes with that kind of thing going on. It’s hard to understand, but the kids there at that mass simply don’t understand that they were doing anything wrong.
Lisa44 said:
Why can’t the Pope keep the Mass on the straight and narrow? Is it really fair to say the Pope hates all the abuses of the Mass but yet they continue? If he wants them to stop why doesn’t he stop them? Why don’t the Bishops stop them?
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I don’t think they want to crack down too hard for fear of losing sheep. Some of the young souls you saw participating at that mass might simply stop going and lose their souls if they didn’t have that. If they pray and practice their faith, they will come to a more mature understanding of how to act at mass.

It’s a bit like the good shepherd leaving the 99 sheep in search of the lost lamb. That might upset the 99 a bit but those kids souls are in grave danger, and most of them aren’t ready to listen to a hard-liner tell them how to dress and act.

Neil
 
Neil_Anthony said:
Hi Lisa,

Who told you that Catholics have to be SOOO obedient and SOOO holy etc? 😃

It sounds like you were taught the faith by good conservative Catholics. Be thankful for that.

So many Catholics have stopped practicing their faith that many priests and bishops allow a lot more flexibility to people with “new ideas” to try to get them back to church. That’s what you saw at this mass.

You need to “shop around” for a more conservative / orthodox parish. Obviously you’re not a rocker who might be turned off by a more formal/stuffy mass, so you don’t need to go to parishes with that kind of thing going on. It’s hard to understand, but the kids there at that mass simply don’t understand that they were doing anything wrong.

Neil
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Thats what I’m trying to do, find a parish I am comfortable in.

Believe it or not, that was the oldest church in the area and was founded by a saint. My husband and I just wondered what that saint would think. I really thought that I was going to witness a more traditional OF mass. I was really shocked. I thought, well maybe there are no kneelers because the church is so old that it predates kneelers?

I guess the moral of the story is just because a church is hundreds of years old doesn’t mean the Mass will be.😃
 
Thank you Hyacinth II - great talk.
And thanks Monica for your supportive words.🙂
 
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