A Fatima program on PAX by traditionalists with erroneous views

workinprogress · Dec 7, 2004

I have discovered their beliefs on ecclesial matters to be, to put it charitably, erroneous. However, their info. on what Mary called us to do at Fatima and their concerns about a security threat from Russia may be right. I don’t think they are right to say what they’ve said about high clerics in the Vatican past and present whether it’s true or not. Be very careful if you watch this. I don’t know that by not watching it, PAXtv (not being particularly Catholic in essence) would think we aren’t interested in Catholic programming or if, by watching it, they’ll think we hold to this group’s views on everything it may say (some of which being erroneous or heretical) I’m not sure I should put this advertisement, which I got by e-mail, on here so will at least say, having been a believer in all they said at one time (because of their quotes by high clerics, haunting even if possibly out of context, seemed to indicate credibility on their part until I read James Hitchcock and a book about ecclesiology by Michael Davies), I still would trust EWTN and the FSSP (and other Ecclesia Dei instituted traditionalist groups) to give correct Church teachings.

"Heaven**'s Key to Peace"**
is a riveting, one-hour documentary which explains how
the world can achieve lasting world peace.
It will air in the United States
Wednesday, December 8, 2004 on PAX TV Network at
11:00 a.m. (Central/Mountain)
12 Noon (Eastern/Pacific) and
11:00 p.m. (Central/Mountain)
12:00 Midnight (Eastern/Pacific)

It will air in Canada on Vision TV
Saturday, December 4, 2004 at
5:00 p.m. Pacific, 6:00 p.m. Mountain
7:00 p.m. Central, 8:00 p.m. Eastern
9:00 p.m. Atlantic, 9:30 p.m. NFLD
and Wednesday, December 8, 2004 at
12 noon Pacific, 1:00 p.m. Mountain
2:00 p.m. Central, 3:00 p.m. Eastern
4:00 p.m. Atlantic, 4:30 p.m. NFLD
You can honor Our Lady on The Feast of Her Immaculate Conception (and the 150thAnniversary of the Solemn Proclamation of this Dogma of Catholic Faith) by watching this all-important national TV viewing. If you have cable, please check your local listings for PAX orVision TV in your area.

Call 1-800-263-8160 or visit www.fatima.org
for more details.

If you are watching this on satellite - Direct TV (channel 255) or EchoStar (Dish) (channel 181)then you will see PAX TV at 12 noon Eastern time, 11:00 a.m. Central time, 10:00 a.m.Mountain time and 9:00 a.m. Pacific time. The night program will play on December 8, at 11:00p.m. Central time, 10:00 p.m. Mountain time, 9:00 p.m. Pacific time and 12 Midnight on the EastCoast.

Please send this announcement along to everyone in your email address book and encourage your friends, family, and neighbors to watch this unique TVprogram.

Brennan_Doherty · Dec 7, 2004

workin(name removed by moderator)rogress, thanks for posting this. I myself am looking forward to watching the documentary tomorrow. One can ascertain their views at http://www.fatima.org.

I hope many people watch this, whether they are for or against the views presented in the documentary. At least it ought to give people much to think about in regards to a very important issue.

God bless.

Friar_David_O.Carm · Dec 7, 2004

A very important issue? and what issue would that be?

Conspriacy theories live in the Church.

Let me guess.

The Vatican has not give out the real third secret. The consecration of Russia did not occur?

So that would mean that the Holy Father and Sister Lucia are liars.

Brennan_Doherty · Dec 7, 2004

ByzCath:

A very important issue? and what issue would that be?

Conspriacy theories live in the Church.

Let me guess.

The Vatican has not give out the real third secret. The consecration of Russia did not occur?

So that would mean that the Holy Father and Sister Lucia are liars.

No, I have never read any article at http://www.fatima.org that asserted that either the Pope or Sister Lucia are liars. This is precisely why people need to look at both sides of the issue by watching documentaries such as the one tomorrow before they make up their minds.

People who advocate that the Consecration of Russia has not taken place or that the full Third Secret has not been revealed use reason and common sense, along with evidence. If one wants to arrive at the truth, one must look at both sides of the issue.

Marie · Dec 7, 2004

Thanks BUT No thanks. If Gruner is involved, there is no way I care to contribute to his apostasy. I’ll stick with Holy Mother Church and FR Fox who is the real spokes person and expert on Fatima.

Friar_David_O.Carm · Dec 7, 2004

Brennan Doherty:

No, I have never read any article at http://www.fatima.org that asserted that either the Pope or Sister Lucia are liars. This is precisely why people need to look at both sides of the issue by watching documentaries such as the one tomorrow before they make up their minds.

Ok I will use some logic here.

The Holy Father and the Vatican say that they have released the Third Secret.

The Holy Father and Sister Lucia say that Russia has been consecrated as requested by the Virgin Mary.

While it is true that Fr Gruner and the Fatima Network, which runs the website fatima.org, have not explicitly called anyone liars they say that the Third Secret has not been released and that Russia has not been consecrated as requested.

So what are we to take from this. Either Fr Gruner and gang think the Holy Father, the Vatican, and Sister Lucia have not told the truth or that they are mislead. It couldn’t be the second or they would be screaming this.

So if they think the Holy Father, the Vatican, and Sister Lucia have not told the truth (which somehow Fr Gruner and gang seem to be privy to) then they have lied and if they have lied then they must be liars.

Now seeing that Fr Gruner does not have access to the Vatican and that he is suspended, nor does he have access to Sister Lucia, I do not see how he could have the truth that the Vatican, the Holy Father, and Sister Lucia do not have.

So Fr Gruner and gang are no more than the same as those running around with other conspiracy theories.

Brennan_Doherty · Dec 7, 2004

Marie:

Thanks BUT No thanks. If Gruner is involved, there is no way I care to contribute to his apostasy. I’ll stick with Holy Mother Church and FR Fox who is the real spokes person and expert on Fatima.

Marie, I hope you watch the documentary. No one is asking anyone to make a donation to Father Gruner’s apostolate and thus support it. Further, sincerely asserting that the Consecration of Russia has not been done or the Third Secret has not been fully revealed is not apostasy. Good Catholics can disagree on that issue. Even Mother Angelica on her EWTN show stated that she believed that the entire Third Secret has not been revealed.

I assert again that one needs to look at both sides of an issue to come to a true conclusion.

God bless.

Brennan_Doherty · Dec 7, 2004

ByzCath:

Ok I will use some logic here.

The Holy Father and the Vatican say that they have released the Third Secret.

The Holy Father and Sister Lucia say that Russia has been consecrated as requested by the Virgin Mary.

While it is true that Fr Gruner and the Fatima Network, which runs the website fatima.org, have not explicitly called anyone liars they say that the Third Secret has not been released and that Russia has not been consecrated as requested.

So what are we to take from this. Either Fr Gruner and gang think the Holy Father, the Vatican, and Sister Lucia have not told the truth or that they are mislead. It couldn’t be the second or they would be screaming this.

So if they think the Holy Father, the Vatican, and Sister Lucia have not told the truth (which somehow Fr Gruner and gang seem to be privy to) then they have lied and if they have lied then they must be liars.

Now seeing that Fr Gruner does not have access to the Vatican and that he is suspended, nor does he have access to Sister Lucia, I do not see how he could have the truth that the Vatican, the Holy Father, and Sister Lucia do not have.

So Fr Gruner and gang are no more than the same as those running around with other conspiracy theories.

The Vatican may assert that they have released the whole Third Secret but I honestly don’t know where the Holy Father has personally made that assertion.

They do assert that certain members of the Vatican have not told the whole truth in regards to Fatima. The Pope has never personally stated that he consecrated Russia.

They assert also that the so-called evidence that Sister Lucia has stated that Russia has been consecrated is bogus, and they provide evidence for this. Thus, they are not implying Sister Lucia is a liar, they are saying that she has not said what certain members of the Vatican assert that she has said.

Again, this is why I hope people at least watch the documentary. The issues you are bringing up are good ones, and important, and I would encourage those who wish to get a more in depth view to watch the documentary tomorrow. If they come away thinking the documentary is fallacious, fine. At least watch.

Also, to go more in depth, I refer people once again to a different viewpoint here:

http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/062504frfox1.asp

All I say is pray, do research, and may we all be led to the truth.

God bless.

Shoshana · Dec 7, 2004

Brennan Doherty:

Marie, I hope you watch the documentary. No one is asking anyone to make a donation to Father Gruner’s apostolate and thus support it. Further, sincerely asserting that the Consecration of Russia has not been done or the Third Secret has not been fully revealed is not apostasy. Good Catholics can disagree on that issue. Even Mother Angelica on her EWTN show stated that she believed that the entire Third Secret has not been revealed.

I assert again that one needs to look at both sides of an issue to come to a true conclusion.

God bless.

Code:

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_17_2.gif

TNT · Dec 7, 2004

Marie:

If Gruner is involved, there is no way I care to contribute to his apostasy…

What’s an apostasy?
Wait! I found something here
catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd00664.htm
apostasy
(Greek: apostasis, a standing-off)

A total defection from the Christian religion, after previous acceptance through faith and baptism.

Apostasy may be merely interior, or exteriorly manifested as well. It may be formal (with full consciousness of the obligation to remain in the faith), or material (without such consciousness). Exterior formal apostasy involves excommunication**, reserved in a special manner to the Holy See** (canon 2314).

Did this Gruner guy adandon the Christian religion? If he did, then I will not watch that documentary.

Marie · Dec 7, 2004

Brennan Doherty:

Marie, I hope you watch the documentary. No one is asking anyone to make a donation to Father Gruner’s apostolate and thus support it. Further, sincerely asserting that the Consecration of Russia has not been done or the Third Secret has not been fully revealed is not apostasy. Good Catholics can disagree on that issue. Even Mother Angelica on her EWTN show stated that she believed that the entire Third Secret has not been revealed.

I assert again that one needs to look at both sides of an issue to come to a true conclusion.

God bless.

Pudding Cake…I have followed Fatima for all of my considerable years. Long before Gruner the Apostate showed up.

I have read and checked and cross checked Gruner’s goofy Fatima crusade also… YUCK! Tooie! He is a charlatan.

Sr Lucia

misericordie · Dec 7, 2004

Marie:

Pudding Cake…I have followed Fatima for all of my considerable years. Long before Gruner the Apostate showed up. I have read and checked and cross checked Gruner’s goofy Fatima crusade also… YUCK! Tooie! He is a charlatan.

Sr Lucia

Well, seems you are not well versed about Fatima then: “charlatan” no I think you are talking about Hans Kung here. I suggest you first read and do research on the FATIMA meggage and what sr. Lucy herself has said before you run around accusing Fr. Gruner of being a “charlatan.” Sounds more like the words of a NON catholic.

misericordie · Dec 7, 2004

work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

I have discovered their beliefs on ecclesial matters to be, to put it charitably, erroneous. However, their info. on what Mary called us to do at Fatima and their concerns about a security threat from Russia may be right. I don’t think they are right to say what they’ve said about high clerics in the Vatican past and present whether it’s true or not. Be very careful if you watch this. I don’t know that by not watching it, PAXtv (not being particularly Catholic in essence) would think we aren’t interested in Catholic programming or if, by watching it, they’ll think we hold to this group’s views on everything it may say (some of which being erroneous or heretical) I’m not sure I should put this advertisement, which I got by e-mail, on here so will at least say, having been a believer in all they said at one time (because of their quotes by high clerics, haunting even if possibly out of context, seemed to indicate credibility on their part until I read James Hitchcock and a book about ecclesiology by Michael Davies), I still would trust EWTN and the FSSP (and other Ecclesia Dei instituted traditionalist groups) to give correct Church teachings.

"Heaven**'s Key to Peace"**
is a riveting, one-hour documentary which explains how
the world can achieve lasting world peace.
It will air in the United States
Wednesday, December 8, 2004 on PAX TV Network at
11:00 a.m. (Central/Mountain)
12 Noon (Eastern/Pacific) and
11:00 p.m. (Central/Mountain)
12:00 Midnight (Eastern/Pacific)

It will air in Canada on Vision TV
Saturday, December 4, 2004 at
5:00 p.m. Pacific, 6:00 p.m. Mountain
7:00 p.m. Central, 8:00 p.m. Eastern
9:00 p.m. Atlantic, 9:30 p.m. NFLD
and Wednesday, December 8, 2004 at
12 noon Pacific, 1:00 p.m. Mountain
2:00 p.m. Central, 3:00 p.m. Eastern
4:00 p.m. Atlantic, 4:30 p.m. NFLD
You can honor Our Lady on The Feast of Her Immaculate Conception (and the 150thAnniversary of the Solemn Proclamation of this Dogma of Catholic Faith) by watching this all-important national TV viewing. If you have cable, please check your local listings for PAX orVision TV in your area.

Call 1-800-263-8160 or visit www.fatima.org
for more details.

If you are watching this on satellite - Direct TV (channel 255) or EchoStar (Dish) (channel 181)then you will see PAX TV at 12 noon Eastern time, 11:00 a.m. Central time, 10:00 a.m.Mountain time and 9:00 a.m. Pacific time. The night program will play on December 8, at 11:00p.m. Central time, 10:00 p.m. Mountain time, 9:00 p.m. Pacific time and 12 Midnight on the EastCoast.

Please send this announcement along to everyone in your email address book and encourage your friends, family, and neighbors to watch this unique TVprogram.

I and about 70 of my friends will see it, and they iclude PRIESTS(Novus Ordo ones too) who are pastors: diocesan and religious, of course I will NOT say which dioceses or parishes they are from.

Deacon_Tony560 · Dec 7, 2004

Representatives of this group began calling all the Catholic radio station programs today, pushing this show. Today on Catholic radio there was a great show that pointed out how Traditionalists are in heresy. I will wait for a program by a group who is in union with the teaching authority of the Church.

Deacon Tony SFO

misericordie · Dec 7, 2004

Deacon Tony560:

Representatives of this group began calling all the Catholic radio station programs today, pushing this show. Today on Catholic radio there was a great show that pointed out how Traditionalists are in heresy. I will wait for a program by a group who is in union with the teaching authority of the Church.

Deacon Tony SFO

PLEASE deacon that is an OLD argument: to say that ALL traditionalist are in heresy: I guess the Pope supported it?? "MOTU PROPIO ECCLESIA DEI: 1988 document. Stay up to date on these matters.

Marie · Dec 7, 2004

misericordie:

Well, seems you are not well versed about Fatima then: “charlatan” no I think you are talking about Hans Kung here. I suggest you first read and do research on the FATIMA meggage and what sr. Lucy herself has said before you run around accusing Fr. Gruner of being a “charlatan.” Sounds more like the words of a NON catholic.

Nice try Misery. I am wayyy old and Pre-Vatican II born and bred. I have followed the devotion to Fatima long before Gruner and Company showed up on the scene. He is the Devils advocate for those who love to fight Holy Mother Church. Those who wish to destroy Fatima. Can’t be done but he and his minions try.

I am quite secure in the “Real Fatima”, message and know what the Devil looks like…Gruner is a liar and and agent of Satan. So follow him if you will. Don’t expect me to give him or you kudos’. Pray for him…I do. He is one evil man.

The day Gruner and Company can heal my child will be the day the world comes to the end.

Our Lady, did intercede and my son was healed. By faithful prayer and following Christ and Holy Mother Church. Not likely I will abandon God at this late date to suit Gruner and crew. As your way too young to have any first hand knowledge…I think I’ll pass on your opinion.

Neither you nor Gruner were a blink in your mothers eye, when me and mine began following the Fatima Message.

katolik · Dec 7, 2004

Marie:

Thanks BUT No thanks. If Gruner is involved, there is no way I care to contribute to his apostasy. I’ll stick with Holy Mother Church and FR Fox who is the real spokes person and expert on Fatima.

Fr.Gruner’s apostasy? What in heaven and earth are youtalking about???
Anyways, Fr.Fox was proven wrong already on the counts of pagan worship at Fatima.

misericordie · Dec 7, 2004

Marie:

Nice try Misery. I am wayyy old and Pre-Vatican II born and bred. I have followed the devotion to Fatima long before Gruner and Company showed up on the scene. He is the Devils advocate for those who love to fight Holy Mother Church. Those who wish to destroy Fatima. Can’t be done but he and his minions try.

I am quite secure in the “Real Fatima”, message and know what the Devil looks like…Gruner is a liar and and agent of Satan. So follow him if you will. Don’t expect me to give him or you kudos’. Pray for him…I do. He is one evil man.

The day Gruner and Company can heal my child will be the day the world comes to the end.

Our Lady, did intercede and my son was healed. By faithful prayer and following Christ and Holy Mother Church. Not likely I will abandon God at this late date to suit Gruner and crew. As your way too young to have any first hand knowledge…I think I’ll pass on your opinion. Neither you nor Gruner were a blink in your mothers eye, when me and mine began following the Fatima Message.

misericordie · Dec 7, 2004

Marie:

Nice try Misery. I am wayyy old and Pre-Vatican II born and bred. I have followed the devotion to Fatima long before Gruner and Company showed up on the scene. He is the Devils advocate for those who love to fight Holy Mother Church. Those who wish to destroy Fatima. Can’t be done but he and his minions try.

I am quite secure in the “Real Fatima”, message and know what the Devil looks like…Gruner is a liar and and agent of Satan. So follow him if you will. Don’t expect me to give him or you kudos’. Pray for him…I do. He is one evil man.

The day Gruner and Company can heal my child will be the day the world comes to the end.

Our Lady, did intercede and my son was healed. By faithful prayer and following Christ and Holy Mother Church. Not likely I will abandon God at this late date to suit Gruner and crew. As your way too young to have any first hand knowledge…I think I’ll pass on your opinion. Neither you nor Gruner were a blink in your mothers eye, when me and mine began following the Fatima Message. /QUOTE age, yes, well with that and time comes: senility.

misericordie · Dec 7, 2004

katolik:

Fr.Gruner’s apostasy? What in heaven and earth are youtalking about???
Anyways, Fr.Fox was proven wrong already on the counts of pagan worship at Fatima.

katolik, I know "they are “way too old” (ummm, hmmmmmm, after a while with AGE thoughts slow down and senility settles in??)

A Fatima program on PAX by traditionalists with erroneous views

workinprogress

Guest

Brennan_Doherty

Guest

Friar_David_O.Carm

Guest

Brennan_Doherty

Guest

Marie

Guest

Friar_David_O.Carm

Guest

Brennan_Doherty

Guest

Brennan_Doherty

Guest

Shoshana

Guest

TNT

Guest

Marie

Guest

misericordie

Guest

misericordie

Guest

Deacon_Tony560

Guest

misericordie

Guest

Marie

Guest

katolik

Guest

misericordie

Guest

misericordie

Guest

misericordie

Guest