A Fatima program on PAX by traditionalists with erroneous views

[HagiaSophia]

ByzCath:

Actually he has not. We have gone over this and the only ones pushing this “pagan worship” story is the Fatima Network and Fr Gruner (who is suspended and has no faculties from the Diocese of Leiria-Fatima) who has no standing in Fatima. The Church has said this did not occur, the local bishop has said this did not occur, the rector has said this did not occur.

When you chose to listen to others rather than the competent authorities who have jurisdiction, then you will be mislead.

News from abroad has said a few weeks ago, it did occur, the testimonies were conflicting as to who did what, who said what and who is playing “cover me” - the end result is that behind the scenes, the “leadership” at Fatima may well be changed if any more of this kind of reporting occurs.

 

[HagiaSophia]

misericordie:

katolik, I know "they are “way too old” (ummm, hmmmmmm, after a while with AGE thoughts slow down and senility settles in??)

Please do not do this - the issues need not be clouded by personal invective - it gets us nowhere, it does us no service and it generates heat rather than light.

The important issues here are the apparition did occur, that questions by many legitimate Catholics have been raised about how it is being “explained” and that good Catholics, who wish to serve the wishes of heaven are on both sides. Beating each other over the head with cries of heretic, apostate, you this, you that, solve not the problem, but do further cloud the message of Mary and how best to fulfill them.

Neither side here has the corner on “obedience” to the will of heaven. Each has a different view. So what’s new already? It’s church … you can’t get three Catholics to agree on the date of the parish picnic and what color the paper napkins ought to be - that these differences exist ought not to surprise us.

 

[HagiaSophia]

MrS:

By the way… even the apologists on this site would agree that the church’s “concern for hurting ecumenism” is often a reason for silence. We already teach the reality of the “5th” dogma on Mary, but perhaps we don’t declare it dogma for fear of losing protestants who would object to Mary, co-Redemptrix etc.

As an affirmation to your post, Cardinal Casaroli’s memoirs have recently been published. In them he states that “ostopolitik” was a failed church policy and that while it was occurring thousands and thousands of Christians were persecuted and died, but still they insisted that it was working, that it was successful and I suspect he wrote this book to be published after his death to partially make amends for his part in it.

 

[MrS]

HagiaSophia:

As an affirmation to your post, Cardinal Casaroli’s memoirs have recently been published. In them he states that “ostopolitik” was a failed church policy and that while it was occurring thousands and thousands of Christians were persecuted and died, but still they insisted that it was working, that it was successful and I suspect he wrote this book to be published after his death to partially make amends for his part in it.

You know, we have a handful of posters here who are very active (lots of posts). And it is comforting to know that those like you, Gilliam, etc are not only well versed (you do your homework on the topic), but also quite level headed and sensible. Your (name removed by moderator)ut is useful and welcome… keep active:yup:

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

ByzCath:

Actually this is not true. Either the Third Secret was revealed or not, either Russia was consecrated or not. There is no way that we can disagree on this issue.

What we can disagree on is if the Third Secret is really a message from Mary and whether or not Russia needed to be consecrated.

I fully agree that either Russia was consecrated or not and the full Third Secret was revealed or not. I don’t understand why we can’t disagree on this issue.

The Church has approved Fatima as a valid apparition. I know of no authors on Fatima who assert that Russia does not need to be consecrated, even if they disagree about whether it has been done or not.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

bear06:

And you can’t see a problem with people launching conspiracy theories at the Vatican? Yes, yes, Fatima isn’t part of dogma. The fact that the “Grunerites” are promoting doubt in the leaders of our Church and yes, some even say they are lying. They do all this without shedding an ounce of solid proof. If you’re going to accuse the main character in this, Sr. Lucia, of contradicting herself, lying, being manipulated, etc., etc., etc. then you sure as heck should provide some evidence that isn’t hearsay.

First of all, I do not consider a reasonable discussion of whether or not Russia has been consecrated to be a “conspiracy theory.”

As far as evidence, you are welcome to read Christopher Ferrara’s article here (it is in three parts):

http://www.fatima.org/news/newsviews/062504frfox1.asp

where he does rely on solid evidence. You may not agree with his conclusions, but his assertions certainly are not without basis.

 

[HagiaSophia]

MrS:

You know, we have a handful of posters here who are very active (lots of posts). And it is comforting to know that those like you, Gilliam, etc are not only well versed (you do your homework on the topic), but also quite level headed and sensible. Your (name removed by moderator)ut is useful and welcome… keep active:yup:

Thank you.

 

[Shoshana]

Marie:

Nice try Misery. I am wayyy old and Pre-Vatican II born and bred. I have followed the devotion to Fatima long before Gruner and Company showed up on the scene. He is the Devils advocate for those who love to fight Holy Mother Church. Those who wish to destroy Fatima. Can’t be done but he and his minions try.

I am quite secure in the “Real Fatima”, message and know what the Devil looks like…Gruner is a liar and and agent of Satan. So follow him if you will. Don’t expect me to give him or you kudos’. Pray for him…I do. He is one evil man.

The day Gruner and Company can heal my child will be the day the world comes to the end.

Our Lady, did intercede and my son was healed. By faithful prayer and following Christ and Holy Mother Church. Not likely I will abandon God at this late date to suit Gruner and crew. As your way too young to have any first hand knowledge…I think I’ll pass on your opinion. Neither you nor Gruner were a blink in your mothers eye, when me and mine began following the Fatima Message.

These are very strong words…a little too strong. Fr. Gruner is not in disunity with the Church, is not condemned by the Church…these are false allegations. Please provide your proof with these words as these are quite slanderous. It saddens me to read such material as coming from someone who has been around…
Again calling Gruner a devils agent is more than slanderous…it is not acceptable. An apology would be in order here. If you are not a young whipper-snapper (your words), than I would expect better judgment and protocol here. This kind of language is expected out of young people or anti-Catholics, not a faithful Roman Catholic of mature years. Do you really know what a devils’ agent is? I do and Gruner does not fit that bill.
My argument here is not about Gruner nor his ministry but on your questionable ‘discernement’ of words and judgment.
And maybe now, we can continue on reading what is the greatest threat to the Catholic Church…
Blessings,
Shoshana

This is my reply to you Marie on another thread and you continue your uncharitable tirade…:tsktsk:

 

[Marie]

Shoshana:

These are very strong words…a little too strong. Fr. Gruner is not in disunity with the Church, is not condemned by the Church…these are false allegations. If you are not a young whipper-snapper (your words), than I would expect better judgment and protocol here. This kind of language is expected out of young people or anti-Catholics, not a faithful Roman Catholic of mature years. Do you really know what a devils’ agent is? I do and Gruner does not fit that bill.
My argument here is not about Gruner nor his ministry but on your questionable ‘discernement’ of words and judgment.
And maybe now, we can continue on reading what is the greatest threat to the Catholic Church…
Blessings,
Shoshana

This is my reply to you Marie on another thread and you continue your uncharitable tirade…:tsktsk:

Your not going to get this old Maxine, to say El Gruner has one holy thought, or purpose little lady. I don’t sleep with nor make excuses for the devil and his agents. I have no fear of calling a spade a spade. Doesn’t mean I don’t pray for his miserable soul. I most certainly do.

But read all you want sweet pea. Live and learn. Get burned a bit and grow like the rest of us. You’ll do just fine in the end…if you stick with Holy Mother Church.
Pax,
Marie

 

[Shoshana]

Marie:

Your not going to get this old Maxine, to say El Gruner has one holy thought, or purpose little lady.

El Gruner? I thought he was ordained a priest. And respect must be assigned as such. Whether one agrees with him or not. I cannot judge whether he has a holy thought or not. There have been many prophets within the Church that were condemned at first or thought crazy. St Frances for one. Is Fr Gruner a prophet…time will only tell. He is only suspended becasue he has not been incardinated and furthermore, he has not received his suspension papers from the Vatican. He himself has no witten document of his being suspended by the Vatican. Thus, one may conclude that the Vatican has not suspended him. His loss of priestly faculties has to do with incardination. How do I know this? My spiritual director knows him personnally. My director (of some 20+ years) will not take a stand one way or the other as Fr Gruner is not not being disciplined by the Vatican. And it is certainly a contraversial issue, would you not agree?

I don’t sleep with nor make excuses for the devil and his agents.

Fr Gruner is not the devil or a minion. You may know all you want you want about the devil, but that doesn’t necessarily give you discernment. Discernement of spirits is a spiritual gift. And, I, having been involved in an exorcism for 5 years, can tell you confidently that Fr Gruner is not one. The devil hates our Lady…big time. And no devil would even recite the rosary. And if I may add, with my experience (too long of a story) he (the devil) is very much afraid of Mary as it is she who will crush his head. I also do not sleep or make excuses for the devil and his minions. But it irks me when people say such things without really being aware of what they are saying. No matter what age.

I have no fear of calling a spade a spade.

I am very much aware of this. And that is not a bad thing. But not in this case. I am also aware of your politically correct sarcasm.

Doesn’t mean I don’t pray for his miserable soul. I most certainly do.

Continue to do so and as I said, time will tell whether Fr Gruner is prophetic or not.

But read all you want sweet pea.

I do not even belong to Fr Gruner’s apostolate even if it around here. Reading the material does not necessarily have a bearing on what I am trying to say. My argument here, as it was in the other thread, is you calling a priest the devil or a minion. You say this too lightly and having had first experience with the devil, I would say you are wrong.

Live and learn.

In those five years of exorcism, I have lived and learned and I am not exactly gullible when it comes to spiritual things. Other things, maybe, but not spiritual things. Otherwise I would not have been asked and been involved with 2 priests with the permission of 2 bishops and a small team to help ‘discern’ this case scenario.

And by the way, I am still living and learning. I am not that young at all. But this is territory that I have had experience with and I do not claim my ‘old age’ to be the important factor here. It is not a picnic and one’s hands do get ‘dirty’. But to see God’s grace working, I would have never missed it for the world.

You’ll do just fine in the end…if you stick with Holy Mother Church.

I am with Mother Churh. One cannot be in an exorcism under the supervision of 2 bishops and 2 priests and not be. I am doing fine, though, thank you. But please, for charity’s sake, stop calling Fr Gruner a devil. Until you have heard the devil, smelled the devil, been physically hurt by the devil, I would give credence to your statement. As it stands now, you continue to state such uncharitable untruths. Age has nothing to do with this.

Pax,
Marie

I remain in peace with you also…sweet pea

 

[Marie]

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea2.asp

Another example of a group found wanting is Fr. Nicholas Gruner’s International Fatima Rosary Crusade. Father Gruner’s priestly faculties have been suspended since 1996. His group has been in conflict with the Church for two decades. Essentially Fr. Gruner has accused the Holy Father of lying about the Fatima message and its application in our times.

catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Igpress/2001-11/wcanada.html

Reminder on suspended priest

Vatican clarifies status of Father Gruner

The Vatican Congregation for the Clergy has published a reminder that Father Nicholas Gruner, the self-styled leader of the International Fatima Rosary Crusade, has been suspended from priestly ministry and does not have ecclesiastical approval of his activities.

Father Gruner has been in conflict with Church authorities for over 20 years because of his insistence that the Fatima message has gone unheeded. He has rejected the assurances of both Pope John Paul II and Sister Lucia, the surviving Fatima seer, that the directive of the Virgin Mary has been fulfilled, and Russia has been consecrated to her Immaculate Heart.

In 1996 the renegade cleric was suspended from his priestly functions by the Bishop of Avellino, Italy—the diocese in which he had been ordained. Although he appealed the suspension, the appeal was unsuccessful. The Congregation for the Clergy, in its September 12 message, recalls that Father Gruner’s suspension was “confirmed by a definitive sentence of the supreme tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura.”

 

[workinprogress]

I don’t know if he is suspended. He has gotten support from quite a many cleric and also a Vatican secretary who has some high level of duty there. A bishop has him under his wing. Now, I think he is wrong in some big ways. Contributing columnists do take shots at the Pope for kissing the Koran, his philosophies of charitable understanding opposing groups to reforms of or after Vatican 2(claiming to be Catholic or not), which may have made Ecclesia Dei possible as well as movements the FSSP (which is seen by extremist groups as suckers) may not be pleased about, the Interfaith Peace things at Assisi, etc. but they generally believe the Pope does not believe the consecration of Russia was done and neither do they believe that of Sr. Lucia and anything to the contrary was concocted by rogue Vatican workers closest to the Pope.
It’s possible Fr. Gruner could be an unwitting agent of the Devil in that Satan may be able to bear the rosary being said if prideful enough rebellion is occuring and Catholics are being led to jump off the boat that is the Church. I am a bit skeptical of the Catholic charismatic renewal even though it’s more accepted. It’s too close to Protestant forms of worship and may evolve into such despite whether it’s doing good now. I have seen intermingling of some FSSP goers and SSPX goers at some things (though their pastors are not comfortable about it)–though not all are inciteful and some are for EWTN visiting show hosts. Not all charismatics or traditionalists may get the difference between their more orthodox treatment of their respective movements and the Protestant nature of the extreme versions practiced by those who feel themselves to be 100% but are breaking temporary but valid Church laws and/or infallible ones. I don’t know how these new things can be contained even if a papal document sets up boundaries for them. Still maybe neither should be ended but stronger enforcement and closer watch of these movements may be best but few extreme groups are really being watched today or punished when caught red-handed in heresy.
Maybe the Captain needs to do less discussing with the far left and far right and any heretics in between and put more (at least heads and othertop players of extreme groups) in irons or even given stripes, so to speak, so as not to scandalize others (if only the bishops conferences were not acting like two right hands). there’s a lot of confused people out there. Till then, I think if all watch EWTN, they will find the balance so we don’t fall off the boat. We may disagree with a thing or two one host might say but generally, it’sa the best we’ve got.

 

[Shoshana]

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea2.asp

Another example of a group found wanting is Fr. Nicholas Gruner’s International Fatima Rosary Crusade. Father Gruner’s priestly faculties have been suspended since 1996. His group has been in conflict with the Church for two decades. Essentially Fr. Gruner has accused the Holy Father of lying about the Fatima message and its application in our times.

catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Igpress/2001-11/wcanada.html

Reminder on suspended priest

Vatican clarifies status of Father Gruner

The Vatican Congregation for the Clergy has published a reminder that Father Nicholas Gruner, the self-styled leader of the International Fatima Rosary Crusade, has been suspended from priestly ministry and does not have ecclesiastical approval of his activities.

Father Gruner has been in conflict with Church authorities for over 20 years because of his insistence that the Fatima message has gone unheeded. He has rejected the assurances of both Pope John Paul II and Sister Lucia, the surviving Fatima seer, that the directive of the Virgin Mary has been fulfilled, and Russia has been consecrated to her Immaculate Heart.

In 1996 the renegade cleric was suspended from his priestly functions by the Bishop of Avellino, Italy—the diocese in which he had been ordained. Although he appealed the suspension, the appeal was unsuccessful. The Congregation for the Clergy, in its September 12 message, recalls that Father Gruner’s suspension was “confirmed by a definitive sentence of the supreme tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura.”

If you would’ve argued this way, it would’ve been acceptable.

But calling him demonic is a whole different ballgame. Let’s play within charity and common sense. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_9_6v.gif