A Fatima program on PAX by traditionalists with erroneous views

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

katolik:

Fr.Gruner’s apostasy? What in heaven and earth are youtalking about???
Anyways, Fr.Fox was proven wrong already on the counts of pagan worship at Fatima.

Actually he has not. We have gone over this and the only ones pushing this “pagan worship” story is the Fatima Network and Fr Gruner (who is suspended and has no faculties from the Diocese of Leiria-Fatima) who has no standing in Fatima. The Church has said this did not occur, the local bishop has said this did not occur, the rector has said this did not occur.

When you chose to listen to others rather than the competent authorities who have jurisdiction, then you will be mislead.

 

[Marie]

misericordie:

katolik, I know "they are “way too old” (ummm, hmmmmmm, after a while with AGE thoughts slow down and senility settles in??)

And imaturity is the bane of reason! Easily led over the cliff…into falsehood!

One of the joy’s of being Old is that we are no longer, so apt to chase Rainbow’s.

 

[workinprogress]

Hopefully, they will behave for this show and hold conspioracy theories

They do question the interpretation of the interpreter that the Wanderer contributor used to interview Sr. Lucia and they say the Pope even has said the consecration was not done.

My William Thomas Walsh, I think, said it was done. I don’t know. I don’t know if it having been done is something we are required to believe but we should at least not go into conspiracy theories about any clerical misdeeds.

 

[proud2bcatholic]

Wow, it definitely seems that Satan is trying to attack the message of Fatima.

We need to follow what Holy Mother Church is doing and not bicker over things.

 

[katolik]

ByzCath:

Actually he has not. We have gone over this and the only ones pushing this “pagan worship” story is the Fatima Network and Fr Gruner (who is suspended and has no faculties from the Diocese of Leiria-Fatima) who has no standing in Fatima. The Church has said this did not occur, the local bishop has said this did not occur, the rector has said this did not occur.

When you chose to listen to others rather than the competent authorities who have jurisdiction, then you will be mislead.

Show me proof for your case

 

[katolik]

ByzCath:

Actually he has not. We have gone over this and the only ones pushing this “pagan worship” story is the Fatima Network and Fr Gruner (who is suspended and has no faculties from the Diocese of Leiria-Fatima) who has no standing in Fatima. The Church has said this did not occur, the local bishop has said this did not occur, the rector has said this did not occur.

When you chose to listen to others rather than the competent authorities who have jurisdiction, then you will be mislead.

What does not beign a priest of the diocese of Fatima have to dow ith anything???

 

[bear06]

Brennan Doherty:

Marie, I hope you watch the documentary. No one is asking anyone to make a donation to Father Gruner’s apostolate and thus support it. Further, sincerely asserting that the Consecration of Russia has not been done or the Third Secret has not been fully revealed is not apostasy. Good Catholics can disagree on that issue. Even Mother Angelica on her EWTN show stated that she believed that the entire Third Secret has not been revealed.

I assert again that one needs to look at both sides of an issue to come to a true conclusion.

God bless.

And when the DaVinci Code come out you might want to go see that too. Who cares that the Church says it’s a lot of bunk?

 

[MrS]

Deacon Tony560:

Representatives of this group began calling all the Catholic radio station programs today, pushing this show. Today on Catholic radio there was a great show that pointed out how Traditionalists are in heresy. I will wait for a program by a group who is in union with the teaching authority of the Church.

Deacon Tony SFO

I don’t believe you.

Or do you and what you think you heard, have a special definition of what a traditionalist might me.

 

[MrS]

Well. I kept an open mind and watched the program. It seemed quite fair.

I did notice that while they think Russia was not consecrated, they did not mention that no Pope has consecrated Russia. Usually those who think Russia was consecrated use the emotion of “insulting” JPII, or “are you calling the Pope and Sr Lucia liars”.

If I claimed the pope said something and he didn’t, the pope is not the liar. Is there a source, not heresay, where JPII can be quoted one way or the other?

By the way, I saw NOTHING in the program that questioned Fatima or the miracle, or denied the Church’s declarations on Fatima. Quite the opposite… it was only positive on Fatima.

The questions come concerning the consecration and the rest of the third secret - if there is more. So let’s keep any difference of opinion to that, and not to straw dogs about the reality of Fatima.

By the way… even the apologists on this site would agree that the church’s “concern for hurting ecumenism” is often a reason for silence. We already teach the reality of the “5th” dogma on Mary, but perhaps we don’t declare it dogma for fear of losing protestants who would object to Mary, co-Redemptrix etc.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

bear06:

And when the DaVinci Code come out you might want to go see that too. Who cares that the Church says it’s a lot of bunk?

Thanks for writing. Whether or not Russia has been consecrated or the Third Secret fully revealed is not a part of Catholic dogma. It is a question on which Catholics can charitably disagree. One simply has to look at both sides of the issue and weigh the evidence.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Brennan Doherty:

Thanks for writing. Whether or not Russia has been consecrated or the Third Secret fully revealed is not a part of Catholic dogma. It is a question on which Catholics can charitably disagree. One simply has to look at both sides of the issue and weigh the evidence.

Actually this is not true. Either the Third Secret was revealed or not, either Russia was consecrated or not. There is no way that we can disagree on this issue.

What we can disagree on is if the Third Secret is really a message from Mary and whether or not Russia needed to be consecrated.

 

[Marie]

ByzCath:

Actually this is not true. Either the Third Secret was revealed or not, either Russia was consecrated or not. There is no way that we can disagree on this issue.

Blue Army:

Sister Lucia personally confirmed that this solemn and universal act of consecration corresponded to what Our Lady wished (“Sim, està feita, tal como Nossa Senhora a pediu, desde o dia 25 de Março de 1984”: “Yes it has been done just as Our Lady asked, on 25 March 1984”: Letter of 8 November 1989). Hence any further discussion or request is without basis.

 

[workinprogress]

Well, Mrs S. it did seem like they were saying the Vatican wants to pretend that Fatima didn’t happen and that what threatened the optimism of Pope John 23rd was omitted from the reading of the 3rd Secret.
Mary did say that Lucy should tell the Pope to read the 3rd secret by 1960 or her death, should it come first. The Feast of Corpus Christi took a while to implement and so did St. Faustina’s revelations. It will be blood on the various pope’s hands if they didn’t reveal the full secret for any ulterior motives. I don’t think we should judge their motives. Gerry Matatics sounded the most understanding of the talking heads. What I didn’t get was the rabbi. What would he care about consecration of Russia and why is he teaming up with those who believe noone but Catholics with salvific grace can go to heaven? Well, maybe he believes they have the truth about Fatima and what was told to the children. I mean, many Catholics fought in some wars for a country that disliked and distrusted them for being Catholics (some probably believing Catholics could not be saved) because those Catholics believed in this country’s experiment in government.
Still, it is uncommon for one to do what the rabbi did in this day and age of the dominance of feeling over truth, integrity and discipline in which those who don’t fit in try to get a lawyer to make them fit in (if a lawyer doesn’t present him/herself at another’s request) or leave because their self-esteem could be lowered.
Nevertheless, the show does not reflect what I know about my Faith. It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t raise interesting questions, but not questions that should have us second-guessing our Church’s leadership on everything. It’s a good principle, and one of humility, to give them the benefit of the doubt or at least make chritable excuses for them. God will take care of us and our Church whether we go back to being a persecuted minority in a land run by terrorists or Soviets. We just need to know our Faith and live it and our soul will be in good shape. EWTN and the FSSP have excellent stuff for knowing our faith. I would keep to EWTN until you know your faith well enough to check out traditionalists. I do wish they would do the Tridentine mass because the prayers are far better, I think. Just know that EWTN has had the FSSP and other groups and orders that are obedient to Rome so they should not all be grouped in with Fr. Gruner’s bunch and the SSPX.

 

[workinprogress]

BTW, according to Fr. Gruner, it wasn’t the Fatima Crusader that announced the questionable religious activities of Hindus at the Fatima shrine in Portugal. Apparently, fishy things have happened at a Marian shrine in India. Check it out. Weigh the facts. Mostly, just pray for whatever will bring back Catholics to the Catholic Faith in droves as well as bringing non-Christians and non-Catholics to the Faith as well. I think EWTN has done a darn good job and it may take a new generation of EWTN-goers to become priests, nuns, monks, heads of seminaries, and parents to encourage their kids to become religious and good, practicing Catholics.
I don't think a 5th Marian dogma could hurt though. I think the Fatima Crusaders should push for that since there's no doubt that hasn't been declared because I think I heard that that too would bring us the reign of the Immaculate Heart of Mary. An attitude change on the contributing authors to the mag as well as the mag's own staff would also be good. If the Vatican clerics were Pharisees, they would be better than them as we are told to be in the Gospel, by being more like Christ in charity. If the consecration of Russia truly has not been done, the dogma being declared would convert the hearts of any tepid or rebellious bishops so as to accomplish it. There may be a delayed response in the effects of the consecration of Russia, if already done. maybe we do have to accept the graces God would bring us through Mary. After all, the Indians in Mexico were just ignorant and probably being badly catechized by soldiers as representatives of the new religion to their land maybe made them less culpable; we, on the other hand, should know better.

 

[MrS]

work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

Well, Mrs S. it did seem like they were saying the Vatican wants to pretend that Fatima didn’t happen and that what threatened the optimism of Pope John 23rd was omitted from the reading of the 3rd Secret.

I didn’t get that at all… it was all very positive… the only contraversy concerns what they all agree WAS said at Fatima, and what they all agree WAS NOT heeded (consecration)

Gerry Matatics sounded the most understanding of the talking heads.

He is quite intellegent… and not particularly well thought of by some at CA. Different opinions I guess… or a struggle to be “right”.

What I didn’t get was the rabbi. What would he care about consecration of Russia and why is he teaming up with those who believe

Perhaps to show that no one could deny the miracles (not just the sun, but the intense heat not harming the 70,000!!)

Nevertheless, the show does not reflect what I know about my Faith. It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t raise interesting questions, but not questions that should have us second-guessing our Church’s leadership on everything.

Excellant point… the whole matter is not one critical to salvation

. We just need to know our Faith and live it and our soul will be in good shape. EWTN and the FSSP have excellent stuff for knowing our faith. I would keep to EWTN until you know your faith well enough to check out traditionalists.

Traditionalists? Explain please? because now you say:

I do wish they would do the Tridentine mass because the prayers are far better, I think. Just know that EWTN has had the FSSP and other groups and orders that are obedient to Rome so they should not all be grouped in with Fr. Gruner’s bunch and the SSPX.

 

[MrS]

work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

. There may be a delayed response in the effects of the consecration of Russia, if already done. maybe we do have to accept the graces God would bring us through Mary.

True… God’s delay is not God’s denial

After all, the Indians in Mexico were just ignorant and probably being badly catechized by soldiers as representatives of the new religion to their land maybe made them less culpable; we, on the other hand, should know better.

At every critical (bad) time in Church History, something good happens. 8 million Catholics left the Church during the Reformation…while nearly 9 million new Catholics joined in Mexico.

And approximately every 500 years we face a crisis… and the Holy Spirt sends us a special Pope to see our way through. JPII has his faults, but for the last quarter century of mess and scandals and bad fruits of VATII abuses, he has held us together.

What an awesome God.

 

[bear06]

Brennan Doherty:

Thanks for writing. Whether or not Russia has been consecrated or the Third Secret fully revealed is not a part of Catholic dogma. It is a question on which Catholics can charitably disagree. One simply has to look at both sides of the issue and weigh the evidence.

And you can’t see a problem with people launching conspiracy theories at the Vatican? Yes, yes, Fatima isn’t part of dogma. The fact that the “Grunerites” are promoting doubt in the leaders of our Church and yes, some even say they are lying. They do all this without shedding an ounce of solid proof. If you’re going to accuse the main character in this, Sr. Lucia, of contradicting herself, lying, being manipulated, etc., etc., etc. then you sure as heck should provide some evidence that isn’t hearsay.

 

[misericordie]

And imaturity is the bane of reason! Easily led over the cliff…into falsehood!

One of the joy’s of being Old is that we are no longer, so apt to chase Rainbow’s.

Well, with certain oldies, there are no rainbows anymore, just frustration and senility: smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_9_6v.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_3.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_17_3.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_2_120.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_2_121.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_2_118.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_2_119.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/15/15_11_1.gif

 

[misericordie]

work(name removed by moderator)rogress:

Well, Mrs S. it did seem like they were saying the Vatican wants to pretend that Fatima didn’t happen and that what threatened the optimism of Pope John 23rd was omitted from the reading of the 3rd Secret.
Mary did say that Lucy should tell the Pope to read the 3rd secret by 1960 or her death, should it come first. The Feast of Corpus Christi took a while to implement and so did St. Faustina’s revelations. It will be blood on the various pope’s hands if they didn’t reveal the full secret for any ulterior motives. I don’t think we should judge their motives. Gerry Matatics sounded the most understanding of the talking heads. What I didn’t get was the rabbi. What would he care about consecration of Russia and why is he teaming up with those who believe noone but Catholics with salvific grace can go to heaven? Well, maybe he believes they have the truth about Fatima and what was told to the children. I mean, many Catholics fought in some wars for a country that disliked and distrusted them for being Catholics (some probably believing Catholics could not be saved) because those Catholics believed in this country’s experiment in government.
Still, it is uncommon for one to do what the rabbi did in this day and age of the dominance of feeling over truth, integrity and discipline in which those who don’t fit in try to get a lawyer to make them fit in (if a lawyer doesn’t present him/herself at another’s request) or leave because their self-esteem could be lowered.
Nevertheless, the show does not reflect what I know about my Faith. It doesn’t mean that it doesn’t raise interesting questions, but not questions that should have us second-guessing our Church’s leadership on everything. It’s a good principle, and one of humility, to give them the benefit of the doubt or at least make chritable excuses for them. God will take care of us and our Church whether we go back to being a persecuted minority in a land run by terrorists or Soviets. We just need to know our Faith and live it and our soul will be in good shape. EWTN and the FSSP have excellent stuff for knowing our faith. I would keep to EWTN until you know your faith well enough to check out traditionalists. I do wish they would do the Tridentine mass because the prayers are far better, I think. Just know that EWTN has had the FSSP and other groups and orders that are obedient to Rome so they should not all be grouped in with Fr. Gruner’s bunch and the SSPX.

Yup but some won’t realize this: they are disconnected from reality.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Deacon Tony560:

Representatives of this group began calling all the Catholic radio station programs today, pushing this show.

This is standard procedure for small budget media productions, especially those of a religious nature, which are not “regular” series. They need to get viewing up not just for content but to convince station managers that carrying these kinds of religious content programs does gain viewers. All faiths do this, most apostolates who know anything about media do the same.

Have you viewed the Faith Under Fire series which Pax runs on Saturday evenings? An excellent religious program with opposite points of view being presented. Wish we had more of it.