A few cells in a Petri-dish

[Freddy]

Freddy:

That makes no sense to me at all.

Nor me. I’m glad I didn’t propose it!

So if it’s not part if the evolutionary process and God didn’t intercede specifically to incorporate higher intelligence in our species then…what other options are there?

 

[Rau]

So if it’s not part if the evolutionary process and God didn’t intercede specifically to incorporate higher intelligence in our species then…what other options are there?

You are asking me “how did God create”? How can I know the how?

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

So if it’s not part if the evolutionary process and God didn’t intercede specifically to incorporate higher intelligence in our species then…what other options are there?

You are asking me “how did God create”? How can I know the how?

Well, I don’t believe He exists but I can still come up with the options. And there are only two.

He either used the evolutionary process or He didn’t. And if He didn’t then it was a creative act that didn’t follow natural processes as we understand them.

If it was gradual then I’ll call that evolution. If it wasn’t then I’ll describe that as a form of creationism. ID if you like.

So where do you stand?

 

[Rau]

I certainly don’t know the answer. What I reject is the idea that the processes of evolution are incompatible with God and thus everything science has contributed on the subject is wrong.

 

[Freddy]

I certainly don’t know the answer. What I reject is the idea that the processes of evolution are incompatible with God and thus everything science has contributed on the subject is wrong.

Then we’re in agreement. And that intelligence is an evolved chracteristic is entirely compatible with a belief in God. Yet you said that the gap between us and other animals is too big.

In the light of what’s stated above, too big for what?

 

[Rau]

And that intelligence is an evolved chracteristic is entirely compatible with a belief in God.

More than mere intelligence. It’s not a question of compatibility. It’s whether there’s more to it.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

And that intelligence is an evolved chracteristic is entirely compatible with a belief in God.

More than mere intelligence. It’s not a question of compatibility. It’s whether there’s more to it.

Once we reached a certain level of intelligence then we started to think about meaning, mortality, where we came from etc. We thought ourselves special. We ain’t. There is no more to it.

One of the first non fiction books I read was The Naked Ape. It explained that that was all we were really. Some of the evolutionary details are now dated. But the main point of the book still stands. Nothing I have read in the subsequent half a century (and I read a lot) has does anything to disavow me of the point made in that book.

In fact, most of what I have read has served only to clarify it.

Pros and conns regarding how it was viewed here: The Naked Ape at 50: ‘Its central claim has surely stood the test of time ‘ | Evolution | The Guardian

 

[goout]

Irregardless of whether intelligence can be observed in the process of evolution…
Human beings have exceptional intellect (or rationality) in comparison with the remaining animal kingdom.
Human beings can ponder our own existence, postulate where our existence comes from, express abstractions, observe and interpret the world around us, etc etc etc…
Other animals do not have anywhere near these same capacities. And oddly enough, the universe is discoverable by intellect. The universe is not entirely random, chaotic, or accidental. The universe itself reveals intellect, before human intellect came along. If the universe did not reveal intellect, then it wouldn’t be discoverable, it would be unintelligible.
So then human beings participate in a rationality that is not of our own making.

 

[Freddy]

Irregardless of whether intelligence can be observed in the process of evolution…
Human beings have exceptional intellect (or rationality) in comparison with the remaining animal kingdom.

That was true when we used to club animals to death for lunch. And once you get to a point when a few grunts become a basic language then everything takes off. You literally don’t have to reinvent the wheel.

Nothing really special about it. Quite possibly our far distant ancestors were close to being as intelligent as we are. We simply have more knowledge.

 

[goout]

goout:

Irregardless of whether intelligence can be observed in the process of evolution…
Human beings have exceptional intellect (or rationality) in comparison with the remaining animal kingdom.

That was true when we used to club animals to death for lunch. And once you get to a point when a few grunts become a basic language then everything takes off. You literally don’t have to reinvent the wheel.

Nothing really special about it. Quite possibly our far distant ancestors were close to being as intelligent as we are. We simply have more knowledge.

So you disagree that human beings have exceptional rationality.
Which apes have written symphonies? Which animals do philosophy?
The exceptionalism of human beings is self evident.

 

[Freddy]

Freddy:

goout:

Irregardless of whether intelligence can be observed in the process of evolution…
Human beings have exceptional intellect (or rationality) in comparison with the remaining animal kingdom.

That was true when we used to club animals to death for lunch. And once you get to a point when a few grunts become a basic language then everything takes off. You literally don’t have to reinvent the wheel.

Nothing really special about it. Quite possibly our far distant ancestors were close to being as intelligent as we are. We simply have more knowledge.

So you disagree that human beings have exceptional rationality.
Which apes have written symphonies? Which animals do philosophy?
The exceptionalism of human beings is self evident.

I didn’t argue against it, goout. I just explained that it isn’t anything mysterious.

 

[fide]

I recommend you get out of such concerns, and seek Truth. Life is too short for this.

 

[Abrosz]

The exceptionalism of human beings is self evident.

Not so fast. Life is more than doing philosophy. The bonobos may not be intelligent as humans, but they are much more civilized. And what do we know about the dolphins? We cannot even decipher their language.

 

[Freddy]

I recommend you get out of such concerns, and seek Truth. Life is too short for this.

I think you mean ‘seek my Truth’. But in any case, I’ve spent a few decades poking around and looking for answers. Luckily I found most of them.

 

[fide]

I think you mean ‘seek my Truth’. But in any case, I’ve spent a few decades poking around and looking for answers. Luckily I found most of them.

I definitely do NOT mean “my truth”. I spent a few decades wasting much time thinking that that was all that existed: “My truth.” “Your truth.” “His Truth.” “The truth for then.” “The truth for now.” etc. etc. etc. All mere ideas - notions - wasted mental gymnastics.

No, I mean Truth. And if you think you’ve found “most” of them, well, my guess is you’ve found no more than I did, confined to the horizons of my own mind. No, I mean Truth that pre-existed both of us, that exists whether you or I or anyone ever - or never - would find it.

 

[goout]

goout:

Freddy:

goout:

Irregardless of whether intelligence can be observed in the process of evolution…
Human beings have exceptional intellect (or rationality) in comparison with the remaining animal kingdom.

That was true when we used to club animals to death for lunch. And once you get to a point when a few grunts become a basic language then everything takes off. You literally don’t have to reinvent the wheel.

Nothing really special about it. Quite possibly our far distant ancestors were close to being as intelligent as we are. We simply have more knowledge.

So you disagree that human beings have exceptional rationality.
Which apes have written symphonies? Which animals do philosophy?
The exceptionalism of human beings is self evident.

I didn’t argue against it, goout. I just explained that it isn’t anything mysterious.

ok whew. Had me worried for a second.
If human beings have intellect, and the universe is intelligible, is it fair to say the universe speaks?
If not, how can human beings relate to the universe with our intellect? The universe must reveal itself if human beings are receptive to it with intellect.

 

[Servant31]

Hey Abroz. So Im curious what the broader goal of the question is? You’ve made a few posts on this topic, or those related. Are you trying to define when specifically life begins? Or perhaps when a human is a human?

 

[Abrosz]

Hey Abroz. So Im curious what the broader goal of the question is? You’ve made a few posts on this topic, or those related. Are you trying to define when specifically life begins? Or perhaps when a human is a human?

When is the expression “human being” applicable to a bunch of cells, even if they form an organism. What is this human “DNA”? How about mutations?

 

[CaptainPrudeman]

He’s trying to get Catholics to see how “stupid” our position on prenatal murder is.

there is a fundamental question: “What is a human DNA”? A certain sequence of molecules? But there is no precise sequence of molecules which could be classified as a “human” DNA. There can be mutations, some minor, some major. At what point will the mutated DNA become a non-human DNA?

Dude, you’ve used this lame argument since the first day you got here. You refuse to see just how lame it is. Scientists today can identify a species with a pretty high degree of certainty based on certain markers in their genetic code. All humans share certain defining characteristics. Same with any species, really. Even “MuTaNtS” which seem to get you so worked up have these markers. I said this once before to you but you either didn’t listen or didn’t see it: Everyone is a mutant. Everyone has some small imperfections and changes in their genetic code. Human DNA isn’t a specific sequence, it’s a general pattern that can be predicted and used for identification. Further ignorance of this fact only serves to prove to others that you are unwilling to actually listen to those you disagree with. It also demonstrates an inability to use Google. Just saying.

 

[Abrosz]

He’s trying to get Catholics to see how “stupid” our position on prenatal murder is.

I did not mention anything about those lines. Maliciously misinterpreting the words of others is against the rules of the board.

…pretty high degree of certainty…

Which is STIILL not precise.

Everyone is a mutant.

To a certain, minor degree. That is not what I was talking about.