A few questions for Muslims

[AveChriste11]

The Bible was gathered together at the local councils of Carthage and Hippo, the Roman Catholics have the Council of Trent which only reitterated (spelling?) the previous councils as binding on all Catholic Faithful as to the status of the deuterocanonical books. In 1672, a Pan-Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem also declared the canon of the Church in response to the Protestant editing of scripture.

The Gnostic writings you mentioned, were never given much credibility. Many of them were forgeries, claiming to be from Apostles but they were not. Also, it is important to remember that many of the early Bishops were being martyred, disfigured, burned and were suffering many grievious torments. One early writer wrote of the Council of Nicea, that “they looked like an army of martyrs”. I don’t know of anyone who would be willing to undergo so much persecution day and night, with the ever threat of death hanging over their heads only to betray the Faith later having gone astray.

 

[elwill]

is that because i wanted to read the verses which said that jesus had wounds !

i just wanted from you to remind me with the verses from the bible , i didn’t think that my question will make you angry from me like that

i’m so sorry

 

[elwill]

The Bible was gathered together at the local councils of Carthage and Hippo, the Roman Catholics have the Council of Trent which only reitterated (spelling?) the previous councils as binding on all Catholic Faithful as to the status of the deuterocanonical books. In 1672, a Pan-Orthodox Synod of Jerusalem also declared the canon of the Church in response to the Protestant editing of scripture.

The Gnostic writings you mentioned, were never given much credibility. Many of them were forgeries, claiming to be from Apostles but they were not. Also, it is important to remember that many of the early Bishops were being martyred, disfigured, burned and were suffering many grievious torments. One early writer wrote of the Council of Nicea, that “they looked like an army of martyrs”. I don’t know of anyone who would be willing to undergo so much persecution day and night, with the ever threat of death hanging over their heads only to betray the Faith later having gone astray.

first of all , thank you for you answer
i can understand that Gnostic writing were forgereis according to you , as i can understand that your version may considered forgeries according to them
as you can understand that according to me both of them may be forgeries either ,
i’m not trying to specify which one is forged and which one is the truth , i just says that both of them existed from the very early centuries
is that wrong or right ?

 

[schaick]

when you need to protect someone from death , you will need decieving plan for that , this plan was to dsecieve the people who tried to kill jesus (pbuh) only
the plan wasn’t to decieve the followers of jesus themselfs , whatever through the time the people differed about jesus and his death and the pure truth which apostles knows was lost

That is not true.
Why does allah allow Jesus to be arrested in the first place.

Why not just take Jesus up into heaven before HE went to trial?

Why not have Pontious Pilate free Jesus- Pilate was about to- then he asked the people who they wanted freed.

Allah could have stepped in numerous times, taken Jesus up to heaven.

i think that whether he was curcified in reality or not , in both senarios she was put through the same grieve , the question returned to you

but as for you asking about muslims point of view , i think that mary knew that he didn’t died on the cross

Problem your Quran confirms the Gospel the Gospel tells us otherwise.

From our view it’s not deceiving plan , it’s the truth which happened
Or you wanna to ask why allah in our view protect jesus from death on the cross ?
I think you need to rephrase your question.

we don’t know any details in our islamic source , what we know is that he wasn’t put on the cross

That makes the Quran less believeable - no details, no names no proof. Mohammad gives people nothing to verify

and why would God cause what you believe to be a false relegion (islam) to grow by faking Mohammad’s prophethood either ? these questions have no sense

Mohammad faked his own prophethood. People choose to follow false prophets- allah does not deceive you into following one.

you know that the bible was later canonized by Constantine around year 325. But before that, many sects of Christianity and many Bibles or Canons existed , and most of them (the early christians) have believed that jesus didn’t die on the cross

Did you know that the Gospel we have today was always considered the Gospel once it was written shortly after Jesus ascended to heaven.

You are mis-informed. The majority of Christians knew Jesus was crucified. Did you know that even the writers of apocrphya knew Jesus was crucified? Gnostics knew Jesus was crucified. Spurious gospel scripture writers- all knew Jesus had been crucified.

let us not talking about what God knows , me and you can agree that God knows the all truth
let us talking about what we knows and the facts we have about so called "eyewitness
and the criteria of accepting it

did he showed them his wounds

Jesus did in fact show HIS wounds to HIS followers.

 

[JHow]

…banned castration among clergy…

…and there was much rejoicing!

 

[Dpoc41]

Why did allah deceive people into believing that Jesus was crucified?

To what end did allah cause Jesus’ mother Mary to believe Jesus died on the cross? Imagine her grieve. Why would allah put her through this?

Why the deceiving plan that Jesus was replaced or didn’t die?

Was the man who died in place of Jesus guilty of a crime? Who was it?

Why would allah cause what you believe to be a false religion [Christianity] to grow by faking Jesus’ death on the cross?

Did allah not know that because of all the eyewitnesses to the crucifixion that Christianity would grow to what it is today? Especially when compared to Mohammad who had no witnesses that an “angel” revealed anything to him.

Why allow people who saw Jesus die and placed in the tomb, to see Jesus walking around afterwards showing HIS wounds?

I don’t believe Muslims would question why Allah would do such things, as they believe he is transcendent, unlike our belief that God stays true to His promises, they believe that Allah can change his mind about things or decide one thing is right one day or then change it another day.
:bowdown::bowdown:

 

[schaick]

That is not true.
Why does allah allow Jesus to be arrested in the first place.

Why not just take Jesus up into heaven before HE went to trial?

Why not have Pontious Pilate free Jesus- Pilate was about to- then he asked the people who they wanted freed.

Allah could have stepped in numerous times, taken Jesus up to heaven.

Problem your Quran confirms the Gospel the Gospel tells us otherwise.

That makes the Quran less believeable - no details, no names no proof. Mohammad gives people nothing to verify

Mohammad faked his own prophethood. People choose to follow false prophets- allah does not deceive you into following one.

Did you know that the Gospel we have today was always considered the Gospel once it was written shortly after Jesus ascended to heaven.

You are mis-informed. The majority of Christians knew Jesus was crucified. Did you know that even the writers of apocrphya knew Jesus was crucified? Gnostics knew Jesus was crucified. Spurious gospel scripture writers- all knew Jesus had been crucified.

Jesus did in fact show HIS wounds to HIS followers.

Of that group I mention the gnostics did not all believe that Jesus was crucified.

 

[thirddec]

Christ proved by every test he was of God ; even Muslims have to accept it but untill mohammed passes any test for prophethood we christians don’t accept him as prophet.
And the extra biblical historical sources attest to the Crucifiction as your latest hero Bart Ehrman will readily conceed as historically true. If Christ was not Crucified then he was not of God as he Prophesied his own death as it happened.

mohammed even fails his own test as he says the proof he is a prophet is that he is written about in the Torah and The Gospels but then if we accept corrupted books ( his idea ) then this is a corrupted basis for his claim to be a prophet and If is proof of prophethood is so dubiously based by this logic then the Koran shares in this dubiousness so can’t be used as a pure proof. So by mohammed own logic he cant live up to Christs pure proofs. People seen him cure the blind; the sick, cast out demons and raise the dead. Christ showed he was the master of Life and Death. He could show how he was prophesyied in the old testiment and even todays Jews will say he matched some of the criteria of their mesiah but not all . We say thats because he will fullfill the rest on his second coming. But no Christian or Jew today that remain so will ever say Mohammed is prophesied in their books.

Our God is no deciever ; he hold no part in lies ; he is a God of Truth and any suggestion he could be a God of Truth and yet concoct a deception on the scale of muslim belief about the Crucifixion is ludacrious. I will follow my God who knows only truth and hope that our muslim friends will realise the folly of following a God capable of such deception as we know which entity has a penchant for lies and deception.

 

[AveChriste11]

first of all , thank you for you answer
i can understand that Gnostic writing were forgereis according to you , as i can understand that your version may considered forgeries according to them
as you can understand that according to me both of them may be forgeries either ,
i’m not trying to specify which one is forged and which one is the truth , i just says that both of them existed from the very early centuries
is that wrong or right ?

The earliest Gnostic gospels can only be traced to the third or fourth century, the Bible that we have began being written around the 60’s A.D./C.E. So you have the regular Christian Bible which was written at the earliest some 30 years after Jesus died, and then you have the Gnostic gospels which were written 200-400 years after Jesus died. I’d put my faith in the earlier texts…

 

[elwill]

That is not true.
Why does allah allow Jesus to be arrested in the first place.

Why not just take Jesus up into heaven before HE went to trial?

Why not have Pontious Pilate free Jesus- Pilate was about to- then he asked the people who they wanted freed.

Allah could have stepped in numerous times, taken Jesus up to heaven.

may be God protected him when jesus (pbuh) asked him that

“O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

Problem your Quran confirms the Gospel the Gospel tells us otherwise.

quran confirms whatever the massage which jesus (pbuh) preach , we differ about if the Gospel you have today is the true taching of jesus

That makes the Quran less believeable - no details, no names no proof. Mohammad gives people nothing to verify

how such details and names will make you verify ?
i think that if you are not convinced that someone else was in the cross in the first place , then the name of this one will change nothing

Mohammad faked his own prophethood. People choose to follow false prophets- allah does not deceive you into following one.

excellent answer , you can consider the same answer for your question below

Why would allah cause what you believe to be a false religion [Christianity] to grow by faking Jesus’ death on the cross?

Did you know that the Gospel we have today was always considered the Gospel once it was written shortly after Jesus ascended to heaven.

did you read ever about development of early Christianity as recorded by history.
this article is very worthy to read
biblestudy.org/basicart/what-did-early-church-believe-preach-after-death-of-jesus.html

You are mis-informed. The majority of Christians knew Jesus was crucified. Did you know that even the writers of apocrphya knew Jesus was crucified? Gnostics knew Jesus was crucified. Spurious gospel scripture writers- all knew Jesus had been crucified.

may be you are right
for me early Christians had major problems and disagreements about who truly Jesus was and whether or not he got crucified or not.
In regards to the New Testament, there are 24,000 epistles (letters) found so far that were written about Jesus. Constantine, which came around year 325 decided to chose the current 30+ books and gospels of the “Cannon” or New Testament. But before that, many books or epistles were believed to be inspired

here is what is written in The Apocalypse of Peter
wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-books/noncanonical-literature/the-apocalypse-of-peter

O Peter." “Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you,O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed,for the invisible one has opposed them.” When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said “What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me Or who is this one, glad and laughingon the tree And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking” The Savior said to me, “He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But thisone into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put toshame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.” But I, when I had looked, said “Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place.”

in the end , i have to say that I personally don’t have any proof about the divinity of the banned apocalypse . i’m not trying to convince you that this one hold the truth

but you have to get my point , You guys need to understand and know that these beliefs existed between christians in the first century,
after the first council did the people in Rome set what we see today as the standard christian theology. All those other early churches have been persecuted and killed for their different views

 

[mark_avery]

Elwill my dear brother;

You seem to have a basic knowledge of the bible, have you not read Hosea 12:11; which could be seen as for or against your beliefs,and so it is; I will speak through Prophets
I will give vision after vision
And through the ministry of Prophets
Will speak in “Parables”.

Maybe a foresighted prediction to our Lords emphatic announcement of his soon to be inclusion of the human race…

What do you think?..

 

[GaryTaylor]

So hows the new Government coming in Egypt?

I fail to see the logic of comparing two completely different texts.

The simple Truth today is the war of Good and evil is waged against all that follow the Way of the Cross and Jesus Christ. That is the battle satan wages against God.

If the highest Black Mass’s world wide replicate the Crucifixtion and Death of Jesus Christ and His hour of Death. That alone ought to tell you something about the Good and evil.

Not only Christians confirm the Truth of Jesus Christ, the corrupt world of evil also does yet in a reverse claim of its victory at the Cross.

If you can’t find Truth in Bible, just re-search satan and lucifer. Or is that all wrong according to Christians also?

God Bless, Gary

 

[elwill]

i’m not very familiar with the bible as you thought , it’s just general knowledge .

may be i read about doubtious tomas in mark or luke , i don’t remember that such wounds were mentioned in it
but i knew lately that may be john the only Gospel mentioned nail marks , i didn’t read it myself yet

is that true that Gospl of john is the only one which added the nail marks to the story ?

 

[elwill]

Elwill my dear brother;

You seem to have a basic knowledge of the bible, have you not read Hosea 12:11; which could be seen as for or against your beliefs,and so it is; I will speak through Prophets
I will give vision after vision
And through the ministry of Prophets
Will speak in “Parables”.

Maybe a foresighted prediction to our Lords emphatic announcement of his soon to be inclusion of the human race…

What do you think?..

i think he is talking about his inclusion of human race through his prophets and that’s exactly what i believe

 

[elwill]

okey , you are wellcome if you have any questions for a muslims

 

[mark_avery]

i think he is talking about his inclusion of human race through his prophets and that’s exactly what i believe

The father spoke of Jesu as being his servant, what every servant/man is to Jesus now,our master and also the teacher for the human race.

Also he was made a little lower than the Angels in heaven hence “son of man” so of course he would of been seen as a prophet also.

Prophet, teacher, helper, friend, brother, and first & last, they son of God, just like we all are, albeit adopted (sons of God,his words).

But at his final breath he also mentioned Paradise to the man crucified next to him, who was not baptised ostensibly, so my prayers are with you…

Peace be upon you…

 

[schaick]

may be God protected him when jesus (pbuh) asked him that

“O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

quran confirms whatever the massage which jesus (pbuh) preach , we differ about if the Gospel you have today is the true taching of jesus

how such details and names will make you verify ?
i think that if you are not convinced that someone else was in the cross in the first place , then the name of this one will change nothing

excellent answer , you can consider the same answer for your question below

Why would allah cause what you believe to be a false religion [Christianity] to grow by faking Jesus’ death on the cross?

did you read ever about development of early Christianity as recorded by history.
this article is very worthy to read
biblestudy.org/basicart/what-did-early-church-believe-preach-after-death-of-jesus.html

may be you are right
for me early Christians had major problems and disagreements about who truly Jesus was and whether or not he got crucified or not.
In regards to the New Testament, there are 24,000 epistles (letters) found so far that were written about Jesus. Constantine, which came around year 325 decided to chose the current 30+ books and gospels of the “Cannon” or New Testament. But before that, many books or epistles were believed to be inspired

here is what is written in The Apocalypse of Peter
wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-books/noncanonical-literature/the-apocalypse-of-peter

O Peter." “Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you,O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed,for the invisible one has opposed them.” When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said “What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me Or who is this one, glad and laughingon the tree And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking” The Savior said to me, “He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But thisone into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put toshame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.” But I, when I had looked, said “Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place.”

in the end , i have to say that I personally don’t have any proof about the divinity of the banned apocalypse . i’m not trying to convince you that this one hold the truth

but you have to get my point , You guys need to understand and know that these beliefs existed between christians in the first century,
after the first council did the people in Rome set what we see today as the standard christian theology. All those other early churches have been persecuted and killed for their different views

Actually The Apocalypse of Peter is from the 2nd century.

You must not know why The Apocalypse of Peter is not considered inspired or in the Holy Bible - It was written too late after Jesus ascension, it is not an eyewitness account, it draws from Greek mythology, there are 2 versions, we don’t even have a guess as to who wrote it, etc.

What I find interesting is that these spurious books were saved and not destroyed the way Uthmann destroyed parts of the Quran.

Are you saying that you believe as the docetists- Jesus’ physical body was an illusion, that HIS illusion of a body was crucified, that Jesus was spirit and so could not die physically?

 

[GaryTaylor]

What I find interesting is that these spurious books were saved and not destroyed the way Uthmann destroyed parts of the Quran.

I “believe” its still the same today. You cannot obtain permission today to dig in Egypt to re-search Old Testament history in Archaeology.

The fact that truths are still discovered in Israel today in regard to Judaism/Christianity has little to do with islamic countrys.

 

[thirddec]

may be God protected him when jesus (pbuh) asked him that

“O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”

quran confirms whatever the massage which jesus (pbuh) preach , we differ about if the Gospel you have today is the true taching of jesus

how such details and names will make you verify ?
i think that if you are not convinced that someone else was in the cross in the first place , then the name of this one will change nothing

excellent answer , you can consider the same answer for your question below

Why would allah cause what you believe to be a false religion [Christianity] to grow by faking Jesus’ death on the cross?

did you read ever about development of early Christianity as recorded by history.
this article is very worthy to read
biblestudy.org/basicart/what-did-early-church-believe-preach-after-death-of-jesus.html

may be you are right
for me early Christians had major problems and disagreements about who truly Jesus was and whether or not he got crucified or not.
In regards to the New Testament, there are 24,000 epistles (letters) found so far that were written about Jesus. Constantine, which came around year 325 decided to chose the current 30+ books and gospels of the “Cannon” or New Testament. But before that, many books or epistles were believed to be inspired

here is what is written in The Apocalypse of Peter
wesley.nnu.edu/sermons-essays-books/noncanonical-literature/the-apocalypse-of-peter

O Peter." “Come therefore, let us go on with the completion of the will of the incorruptible Father. For behold, those who will bring them judgment are coming, and they will be put to shame. But me they cannot touch. And you,O Peter, shall stand in their midst. Do not be afraid because of your cowardice. Their minds shall be closed,for the invisible one has opposed them.” When he said those things, I saw him seemingly being seized by them. And I said “What do I see, O Lord, that it is you yourself whom they take, and that you are grasping me Or who is this one, glad and laughingon the tree And is it another one whose feet and hands they are striking” The Savior said to me, “He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But thisone into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put toshame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.” But I, when I had looked, said “Lord, no one is looking at you. Let us flee this place.”

in the end , i have to say that I personally don’t have any proof about the divinity of the banned apocalypse . i’m not trying to convince you that this one hold the truth

but you have to get my point , You guys need to understand and know that these beliefs existed between christians in the first century,
after the first council did the people in Rome set what we see today as the standard christian theology. All those other early churches have been persecuted and killed for their different views

This so called Apocalpse of Peter is not the Original Apocalypse of Peter but the Gnostic one. Of course Gnostics are heretics and they would have a book to Ignore Christs divinity.

If you want a quote from the original Apocalpse of Peter then why not this.

Take heed that no man deceive you, and that ye be not doubters and serve other gods. Many shall come in my name, saying: I am the Christ. Believe them not, neither draw near unto them. For the coming of the Son of God shall not be plain (i.e. foreseen); but as the lightning that shineth from the east unto the west, so will I come upon the clouds of heaven with a great host in my majesty; **with my cross **going before my face will I come in my majesty, shining sevenfold more than the sun will I come in my majesty with all my saints, mine angels (mine holy angels). And my Father shall set a crown upon mine head, that I may judge the quick and the dead and recompense every man according to his works.

And when they (Israel) shall perceive the wickedness of their deeds they shall turn away after them and deny him [whom our fathers did praise], even the first **Christ whom they crucified **and therein sinned a great sin.

Of couse these are non Canonical books.

earlychristianwritings.com/text/apocalypsepeter-mrjames.html

There was no arguement amoung christians about Christ being crucified and if you believe that then you are deluded. The major debate was about his Nature.

 

[contentedself]

Why did allah deceive people into believing that Jesus was crucified?

To what end did allah cause Jesus’ mother Mary to believe Jesus died on the cross? Imagine her grieve. Why would allah put her through this?

Why the deceiving plan that Jesus was replaced or didn’t die?

Was the man who died in place of Jesus guilty of a crime? Who was it?

Why would allah cause what you believe to be a false religion [Christianity] to grow by faking Jesus’ death on the cross?

Did allah not know that because of all the eyewitnesses to the crucifixion that Christianity would grow to what it is today? Especially when compared to Mohammad who had no witnesses that an “angel” revealed anything to him.

Why allow people who saw Jesus die and placed in the tomb, to see Jesus walking around afterwards showing HIS wounds?

What makes you think He deceived anybody? If we assume He did want to deceive anybody, wouldn’t the jewish priests be the first on this list? And don’t you think that Jesus (as) would have told his disciples and family that he is protected by God and will be raised to Him and that he shall return at the end of time and fight falsehood along side the descendants of prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?

What makes you think that the one who replaced him had committed any crime? Didn’t you think about the possibility that he loved God so much that when Jesus (as) asked him to take his place, he willfully did??

Whoever told you that we believe the teachings of Jesus are false? Who gave you that nonsense? Ever heard of the perfection of religions through time? All according to their capacity? ever thought of that? or didn’t bother to read?

Ever heard of something called divine tests? Couldn’t God be testing you all to see whether you would use your intellects to investigate and challenge your OWN religion first before you go pick on silly things like this? Ever heard of something called quality not quantity?

You believe that he was raised from the dead, we don’t. He was raised to God ALIVE. Or do you not think God is capable of that?