A few questions for Muslims

[thirddec]

What makes you think He deceived anybody? If we assume He did want to deceive anybody, wouldn’t the jewish priests be the first on this list? And don’t you think that Jesus (as) would have told his disciples and family that he is protected by God and will be raised to Him and that he shall return at the end of time and fight falsehood along side the descendants of prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?

What makes you think that the one who replaced him had committed any crime? Didn’t you think about the possibility that he loved God so much that when Jesus (as) asked him to take his place, he willfully did??

Whoever told you that we believe the teachings of Jesus are false? Who gave you that nonsense? Ever heard of the perfection of religions through time? All according to their capacity? ever thought of that? or didn’t bother to read?

Ever heard of something called divine tests? Couldn’t God be testing you all to see whether you would use your intellects to investigate and challenge your OWN religion first before you go pick on silly things like this? Ever heard of something called quality not quantity?

You believe that he was raised from the dead, we don’t. He was raised to God ALIVE. Or do you not think God is capable of that?

Like most times I have to deal with muslim debate it becomes such a spray of ideas no no coherant pattern so one become baffled as to which piece of nonscence to deal with first but I will attempt to in the hope that you will actually try and stay on what you have said long enough to recognise it for the self deception it is.

What makes you think He deceived anybody? we dont think this you do.

**And don’t you think that Jesus (as) would have told his disciples and family that he is protected by God ** as I told you before Christ explained to his apostles that he would Die and be raised up. If Christ knew there was a rescue plan then why the suffering in the Garden before. You even quote this yourself in another thread,

What makes you think that the one who replaced him had committed any crime?
we don’t think anyone replaced him we know no one did.

Didn’t you think about the possibility that he loved God so much that when Jesus (as) asked him to take his place, he willfully did?? now this is a question from someone who can’t believe God would allow his Son to die but would find a human that would be prepared to make a sacrifice that God wouldn’t.

Whoever told you that we believe the teachings of Jesus are false? you even say yourselves that you never had the teachings of Christ as they were distorted by Muhammeds time so how can you decide if something is true or false if you never seen or heard them ? of course you pick which teachings you find that you like in our Gospels but then deny what you don’t like. Especially the ones about his death and resurection. To be honest what you do is worse as you pretend to follow Christs teaching. Let Christ give you his answer.

*Revelation 3:15-17 (Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition)

I know thy works, that thou art neither cold, nor hot. I would thou wert cold, or hot.

16But because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold, not hot, I will begin to vomit thee out of my mouth.

17Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.*

.
**Ever heard of something called divine tests? Couldn’t God be testing you all to see whether you would use your intellects ** yes they are called mysteries like the Trinity which is a divine test Islam can’t get around.

There at least I have tried to answer your questions so before you spew out another set can you go on the other thread about Easter ( yours ) and answer my 1 question plz

 

[swariffin]

i read about these stuff many times ago , and i saw decumentry film called " banned from the bible" which takling about beliefs of early christians in first and second century

what do you think about so called gnostic Christians and their beliefs about resurrection , did they had the same beliefs you have about it?

if you interrested to discuss them then cite what the bible said exactly

Do you know the difference between Gnostic Christian and “Regular” Christian?

 

[swariffin]

first of all , thank you for you answer
i can understand that Gnostic writing were forgereis according to you , as i can understand that your version may considered forgeries according to them
as you can understand that according to me both of them may be forgeries either ,
i’m not trying to specify which one is forged and which one is the truth , i just says that both of them existed from the very early centuries
is that wrong or right ?

Nope, when Church leaders all over the world agreed about the canon of the Bible, then what was decided is the correct one. If you want to see the correct version of the Bible, you should not ask the Muslims. The same thing happen to me. I am not the one who can give justification of a “correct” version of Quran.

Let alone, scientifically speaking, those Gnostic writing, came from the third century or end of second century. So, timewise, it is highly impossible to be originated from the apostle. In this case, the old rule apply. The latter issues must be checked against the earlier version, not the other way around.

 

[swariffin]

I don’t believe Muslims would question why Allah would do such things, as they believe he is transcendent, unlike our belief that God stays true to His promises, they believe that Allah can change his mind about things or decide one thing is right one day or then change it another day.
:bowdown::bowdown:

Isn’t it wonderful. I am a sinner based of God’s law today, and while doing nothing, became a saint on the following day, just because God has changed His mind.

 

[mase127]

Why did allah deceive people into believing that Jesus was crucified?

To what end did allah cause Jesus’ mother Mary to believe Jesus died on the cross? Imagine her grieve. Why would allah put her through this?

Why the deceiving plan that Jesus was replaced or didn’t die?

Was the man who died in place of Jesus guilty of a crime? Who was it?

Why would allah cause what you believe to be a false religion [Christianity] to grow by faking Jesus’ death on the cross?

Did allah not know that because of all the eyewitnesses to the crucifixion that Christianity would grow to what it is today? Especially when compared to Mohammad who had no witnesses that an “angel” revealed anything to him.

Why allow people who saw Jesus die and placed in the tomb, to see Jesus walking around afterwards showing HIS wounds?

The people who thought Jesus died on the cross were the people who were trying to kill him. Nowhere does it say in the Quran that Mary or any of his followers believed he died on the cross.

Why did Allah do it? I can’t read His mind, so I don’t know. Why the plan to replace his body, again, there’s nothing in the Quran about God’s intentions, so any Muslim’s answer should be God knows best.

Why would Allah allow Christianity to grow based on the Jesus’s crucifixion? Well, and this is just my thoughts here, but in early Christianity, there was a significant about of Christians who rejected the divinity of Christ. It most certainly was not as homogeneous as it is today (which is weird, you’d expect there to be more clarity in the early years, no?). At any rate, again, I can’t read the mind of God, and so like most of your questions, you aren’t going to find a definitive answer.

Christianity grew to what it is today because of eyewitnesses to the crucifixion? that’s news to me. last i checked, the gospels weren’t written by anyone present at the crucifixion. And as to Jesus walking around with his wounds… well, the bible says one thing and the Quran says another.

 

[mase127]

The most important difference between Christianity and Islam is the divinity of Christ. So, since many early Christians (you can debate whether they were Christian or not) did not believe in Christ, and that this disbelief was very common, it follows that after a few pages of discussion, it might come up.

In any rate, the questions asked or kinda bunk. The questioner is asking us to read the mind of God. If there isn’t a definitive answer, then I’m not going to divine the results just to appease you or anyone else.

 

[swariffin]

The most important difference between Christianity and Islam is the divinity of Christ. So, since many early Christians (you can debate whether they were Christian or not) did not believe in Christ, and that this disbelief was very common, it follows that after a few pages of discussion, it might come up.

In any rate, the questions asked or kinda bunk. The questioner is asking us to read the mind of God. If there isn’t a definitive answer, then I’m not going to divine the results just to appease you or anyone else.

No, my friend. The most important difference between Christianity and Islam, is the logical credibility of those who spread the teaching of the respective prophet.

 

[LtTony]

The people who thought Jesus died on the cross were the people who were trying to kill him. Nowhere does it say in the Quran that Mary or any of his followers believed he died on the cross.

OK. That is reasonable. On the face of it.

Why did Allah do it? I can’t read His mind, so I don’t know. Why the plan to replace his body, again, there’s nothing in the Quran about God’s intentions, so any Muslim’s answer should be God knows best.

Now we’re getting into the sticky part for muslims.
We have multiple, lengthy scripture accounts of His death and resurrection, including reports of appearances witnessed by hundreds of people. Plus many, many NT references outside the Gospels to the events.
PLUS – we have Christ Himself predicting more than once His own death. (not to mention OT prophesies)
There were many disagreements in the early church, as described unabashedly in the scriptures and church history. The questions of gentiles, even of the divinity of Christ. But there was no controversy to speak of regarding Christ’s death and resurrection.

So, along comes an Arab some 600 years after these well-documented and well-known events who says God told him alone in a cave that they didn’t happen. And/or all these scriptures are corrupted. The whole affair is brushed aside with a “they killed him not.”
That’s it. “They killed him not.” This entire religion that had been sweeping the world comes down to “they killed him not.” Mohammad goes on and on and on about how to kill and conquer, and everyday minutiae like toilet habits and black dogs while praying but this entire other religion gets only — “they killed him not.”
Now, to me, and I think to most discerning people, the onus is on that Arab fellow to prove it, or at least make a better case. Especially when muslims like to say how intellectual and logical Islam is, and how science can prove this and that in the Koran.

Islam, imo, essentially ignores its problem. The Muslim prophet knew he couldn’t defeat Christ’s redemtive sacrifice, so he flanked it, went around it, ignored it.
Not a bad strategy, given Mohammad’s predicament.
Don’t get me started on the mythical “Injeel” that muslims have never produced.

Don’t get me wrong. I think some people have reasonable objections to christianity – Jews being one group – but the Islamic position is defies reason. Ridiculous to bring only a “they killed him not” in an attempt to wipe out six centuries of documented reports, faith and tradition.
God isn’t cruel. He wouldn’t allow deception to mislead people like that. If Christ was only a prophet, as muslims claim, God wouldn’t have allowed His message to be shrouded with a monumental lie like that.

Why would Allah allow Christianity to grow based on the Jesus’s crucifixion? Well, and this is just my thoughts here, but in early Christianity, there was a significant about of Christians who rejected the divinity of Christ.

That is your characterization, and an unsubstantiated one to boot.
Besides the Divinity of Christ is another subject. Let’s stay focused on the crucifixion, shall we?

It most certainly was not as homogeneous as it is today (which is weird, you’d expect there to be more clarity in the early years, no?).

Well, there’s a lot of muslims who would disagree with you. They would say (hypocritically, imo) that christianity is riddled with sects while Islam isn’t.

At any rate, again, I can’t read the mind of God, and so like most of your questions, you aren’t going to find a definitive answer.

You keep mentioning “reading God’s mind.” I think you should talk to muslims about that because I think they are the ones doing the reading.

Christianity grew to what it is today because of eyewitnesses to the crucifixion?

Yes. There are a handful of extra-biblical references that mention it as well, I believe.

that’s news to me. last i checked, the gospels weren’t written by anyone present at the crucifixion.

Again, that is another subject. But John was there.

And as to Jesus walking around with his wounds… well, the bible says one thing and the Quran says another.

Yep. And I’m willing to let each stand on its own, as I described above.

Yeah, intentionally or not, the topic tends to get off track. That’s why I tried to keep the focus on the crucifixion.

The most important difference between Christianity and Islam is the divinity of Christ. So, since many early Christians (you can debate whether they were Christian or not) did not believe in Christ, and that this disbelief was very common, it follows that after a few pages of discussion, it might come up.

“Many early christians did not believe in Christ.” Makes no sense.

“This belief was very common.”

What belief? And when you define it, cite some sources. Then we’ll talk.

And again, the divinity of Christ is not the question at hand. The crucifixion is. (Christ’s sacrifice is the major difference, imo.)

In any rate, the questions asked or kinda bunk. The questioner is asking us to read the mind of God. If there isn’t a definitive answer, then I’m not going to divine the results just to appease you or anyone else.

There you go again with the mind reading thing. All due respect, your replies are weak, as weak as this facet of Islam, as I stated earlier. There are a number of things to admire in Islam and Mohammad, but this part is nonsense, as I outlined above.

 

[schaick]

The people who thought Jesus died on the cross were the people who were trying to kill him. Nowhere does it say in the Quran that Mary or any of his followers believed he died on the cross.

Why did Allah do it? I can’t read His mind, so I don’t know. Why the plan to replace his body, again, there’s nothing in the Quran about God’s intentions, so any Muslim’s answer should be God knows best.

Why would Allah allow Christianity to grow based on the Jesus’s crucifixion? Well, and this is just my thoughts here, but in early Christianity, there was a significant about of Christians who rejected the divinity of Christ. It most certainly was not as homogeneous as it is today (which is weird, you’d expect there to be more clarity in the early years, no?). At any rate, again, I can’t read the mind of God, and so like most of your questions, you aren’t going to find a definitive answer.

Christianity grew to what it is today because of eyewitnesses to the crucifixion? that’s news to me. last i checked, the gospels weren’t written by anyone present at the crucifixion. And as to Jesus walking around with his wounds… well, the bible says one thing and the Quran says another.

Well we know that allah is a planner, schemer and deceiver it says so in the Quran. Muslims say that Jesus was not crucified even though HE was seen on the cross by many eyewitnesses.

Yes some reports were by historians of the day- not followers. It was HIS crucifixion and resurrection that changed the minds of many non followers of Christ to follow Christ.

But it was also Jesus’ followers and HIS mother that saw the person on the cross as Jesus. Why did allah substitute someone else for Jesus? To what end? In allah’s scheming, deception he created a religion. If allah faked all this it is allah’s fault there is Christianity.

So to what end? Your allah purposely misleads people down the wrong path?

 

[gmcbroom]

Well, and these are just my opinions mind you.

A) The Evil One would love nothing better than to see the ruiniation of souls. He would and could have impersonated an angel (not difficult as he is one). Then told Mohammed he was Gabriel and start dictating the Koran to him which Mohammed spread. For those that are religious this could be a plausible answer. After all, The Evil One hates the name of Jesus. I read a story a while back about a priest conducting an exorcism; in it the demon told the priest to silence the monk who was praying the Jesus Prayer outside the building; it complained it felt like chains of fire encircling it. Naturally the priest asked the monk to continue . So that’s one reason.

B) The other reason is less spiritual and more material. It’s all about power. Mohammed, was well aware of the state of christianity as his first wife was a christian. He got the idea from people he knew then began to synthesize it into one faith he hoped many would adher to and stop the fracturing he saw occuring around him among the christians. A better alternative if you will. Regretfully, many didn’t embrace it. So he went from town to town, tribe to tribe until his following grew (many would be drawn to his message especially the miracle of the Koran’s great poetry that portrayed a decent message and governing structure…atleast in the beginning). However, as time went on the same thing that happens among people with power today ocurred back then. He wanted more. Thats when his message changed from something peaceful to conquest and it worked. As for how he could make the Koran he’d simply need a jewish/christian slave a former scribe familar with both faiths and have him write the Koran when he was done the slave was simply killed and disposed of.

Due to the state of the christian faith at the time in Arabia schimatics were everywhere it wouldn’t have been hard for him to enslave one and if the scribe had a schismatic view of the trinity that would be incorporated into the Koran.

Of course I could just be ,“spinning tales.” as St. John of Damascus said to those who were bringing the Islamic faith to him. He didn’t believe in Islam either even though he lived under an islamic regime at the time.

In any case we will never know for certain until we meet out our maker. Until then, I’ll just keep the Christian faith I have, and pray.

Peace be with you.

 

[thegame_786]

Why did allah deceive people into believing that Jesus was crucified?

To what end did allah cause Jesus’ mother Mary to believe Jesus died on the cross? Imagine her grieve. Why would allah put her through this?

Why the deceiving plan that Jesus was replaced or didn’t die?

Was the man who died in place of Jesus guilty of a crime? Who was it?

Why would allah cause what you believe to be a false religion [Christianity] to grow by faking Jesus’ death on the cross?

Did allah not know that because of all the eyewitnesses to the crucifixion that Christianity would grow to what it is today? Especially when compared to Mohammad who had no witnesses that an “angel” revealed anything to him.

Why allow people who saw Jesus die and placed in the tomb, to see Jesus walking around afterwards showing HIS wounds?

First off all please don’t take my answers as definite answers. it is just my own personal view. For the first question the answer is pretty simple. Allah deceived the people who were present during the crucifixation. these were mostly people who hated Jesus (pbuh) and wanted him to suffer terribley (as seen in passion of the christ). when all the evil people hatched a plan to kill Jesus (pbuh) Allah knew about it and even let them carry it out. But they were decieved. just remeber this is the same Allah who saved Noah from the flood, Jonah from the whale and Moses from the Pharoh. and dont forget Abraham from the fire (pbota). Why it is so difficult to belive that Allah would not save his prophet Jesus (pbuh) from a terrible fate that he definitly did not deserve. i will answer the rest of the questions later…
. For the record you can’t say Allah has deceived people. it is common knowledge that Jesus (pbuh) was NOT crucified. Well at least thats what muslims believe. You can’t say someone is deceiving when the truth has been told but you are not listening. Thats just not right lol

 

[LtTony]

I’m sorry, but with all the charity I can muster… that is about the worst defense of muslim poppycock I’ve ever read.

“the people who were present during the crucifixation. these were mostly people who hated Jesus (pbuh) and wanted him to suffer terribley (as seen in passion of the christ)”

You’re basing your theory on a movie scene. How do you know Jesus’ enemies outnumbered His followers?
You don’t. Your’s is PURE SPECULATION. Guesswork to defend the indefensible.

“For the record you can’t say Allah has deceived people. it is common knowledge that Jesus (pbuh) was NOT crucified.”

Common knowledge? ROFLMAO Common knowledge to muslims. They get it from the Koran. And the Koran is the word of God. How do we know? Because the Koran says so.

 

[GaryTaylor]

First off all please don’t take my answers as definite answers. it is just my own personal view. For the first question the answer is pretty simple. Allah deceived the people who were present during the crucifixation. these were mostly people who hated Jesus (pbuh) and wanted him to suffer terribley (as seen in passion of the christ). when all the evil people hatched a plan to kill Jesus (pbuh) Allah knew about it and even let them carry it out. But they were decieved. just remeber this is the same Allah who saved Noah from the flood, Jonah from the whale and Moses from the Pharoh. and dont forget Abraham from the fire (pbota). Why it is so difficult to belive that Allah would not save his prophet Jesus (pbuh) from a terrible fate that he definitly did not deserve. i will answer the rest of the questions later…
. For the record you can’t say Allah has deceived people. it is common knowledge that Jesus (pbuh) was NOT crucified. Well at least thats what muslims believe. You can’t say someone is deceiving when the truth has been told but you are not listening. Thats just not right lol

My brother, do you realize its a historical fact Jesus Christ was crucified. Written history of the Jews, Romans, and Christians confirm it. And just as biblically stated.

Do yourself a favor. Forget Christianity, forget Islam, and go to library with a clear, open mind and study Jesus Christ is History.

Leave fast google sights, You Tube, the movies, and the forums alone for a moment. And spend “one year” in study of just Jesus Christ.

You’ll walk away with a completely different understanding of “truth” I promise you.

God Bless, Gary

 

[thirddec]

First off all please don’t take my answers as definite answers. it is just my own personal view. For the first question the answer is pretty simple. Allah deceived the people who were present during the crucifixation. these were mostly people who hated Jesus (pbuh) and wanted him to suffer terribley (as seen in passion of the christ). when all the evil people hatched a plan to kill Jesus (pbuh) Allah knew about it and even let them carry it out. But they were decieved. just remeber this is the same Allah who saved Noah from the flood, Jonah from the whale and Moses from the Pharoh. and dont forget Abraham from the fire (pbota). Why it is so difficult to belive that Allah would not save his prophet Jesus (pbuh) from a terrible fate that he definitly did not deserve. i will answer the rest of the questions later…
. For the record you can’t say Allah has deceived people. it is common knowledge that Jesus (pbuh) was NOT crucified. Well at least thats what muslims believe. You can’t say someone is deceiving when the truth has been told but you are not listening. Thats just not right lol

Well done as at least there is evidence that you are actually trying to think for yourself and at this stage in your journey you are trying valiently to defend your faith

But lets look carefully at what you have said; Allah protects his prophets mmmh yes he will make sure that they are protected until they can at least carry out his mission for them. No Noah no human race-no Abraham no Semites- No Moses no Jews- Jonah wasn’t saved by God in the whale but rather taken to where God had wanted him to be ( Jonah was trying to run away from Gods mission ) . Jesus had a mission and he preached and told his apostles all about it but even they failed to understand before hand that he had to die to be resurected. Read all about it in all the gospels and in all the related prophesy of the Old testement and forget about Bart Ehrman and changes; the changes he talks about do not cover rewriting the whole bible and when asked directly did any affect doctine or belief he struggled to find any ( I think he found 1 but it was nothing to do with central doctrine ) but Bart takes the crucifixion as as certain as anything in ancient history can be. Read you own Quran and see does Allah protect his prophets ?

surah3:21
Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slay the prophets wrongfully, and slay those of mankind who enjoin equity: promise them a painful doom.
surah3:112
Ignominy shall be their portion wheresoever they are found save (where they grasp) a rope from Allah and a rope from men. They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the prophets wrongfully. That is because they were rebellious and used to transgress.

if you know your Quran you know I can find more !

Now where does The God of Abraham ; where does The God of Truth in the bible decieve anyone.

There were still Jewish followers of Christ at the foot of the cross and they buried Him; so Christ tells all his people before that he is to be killed to fullfil his mission and he is not killed ; that would mean he did not fullfil his mission. What Agent of God never fullfilled their mission.

Now why don’t you read the Gospel accounts in the bible as the Truthfull witness of the writer and any verses you don’t believe go and find the oldest versions available and see what has been changed . Im guessing it wont affect anything. Try to do this from as impartial a site as you can. Then you can come back and show us the evidence something your less honestly scholarly brothers continue to fail to do.

I wish you well in honest scholarship; while you do that Why don’t you pray to Abraham’s God and instead of calling him Allah call Him the TRUE GOD OF ABRAHAM in your prayers and ask him for help in your studies. If Allah is the True GOD of ABRAHAM then you can’t be wrong

 

[schaick]

Well done as at least there is evidence that you are actually trying to think for yourself and at this stage in your journey you are trying valiently to defend your faith

But lets look carefully at what you have said; Allah protects his prophets mmmh yes he will make sure that they are protected until they can at least carry out his mission for them. No Noah no human race-no Abraham no Semites- No Moses no Jews- Jonah wasn’t saved by God in the whale but rather taken to where God had wanted him to be ( Jonah was trying to run away from Gods mission ) . Jesus had a mission and he preached and told his apostles all about it but even they failed to understand before hand that he had to die to be resurected. Read all about it in all the gospels and in all the related prophesy of the Old testement and forget about Bart Ehrman and changes; the changes he talks about do not cover rewriting the whole bible and when asked directly did any affect doctine or belief he struggled to find any ( I think he found 1 but it was nothing to do with central doctrine ) but Bart takes the crucifixion as as certain as anything in ancient history can be. Read you own Quran and see does Allah protect his prophets ?

surah3:21
Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slay the prophets wrongfully, and slay those of mankind who enjoin equity: promise them a painful doom.
surah3:112
Ignominy shall be their portion wheresoever they are found save (where they grasp) a rope from Allah and a rope from men. They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the prophets wrongfully. That is because they were rebellious and used to transgress.

if you know your Quran you know I can find more !

Now where does The God of Abraham ; where does The God of Truth in the bible decieve anyone.

There were still Jewish followers of Christ at the foot of the cross and they buried Him; so Christ tells all his people before that he is to be killed to fullfil his mission and he is not killed ; that would mean he did not fullfil his mission. What Agent of God never fullfilled their mission.

Now why don’t you read the Gospel accounts in the bible as the Truthfull witness of the writer and any verses you don’t believe go and find the oldest versions available and see what has been changed . Im guessing it wont affect anything. Try to do this from as impartial a site as you can. Then you can come back and show us the evidence something your less honestly scholarly brothers continue to fail to do.

I wish you well in honest scholarship; while you do that Why don’t you pray to Abraham’s God and instead of calling him Allah call Him the TRUE GOD OF ABRAHAM in your prayers and ask him for help in your studies. If Allah is the True GOD of ABRAHAM then you can’t be wrong

Here is another one:
002.061
YUSUFALI: And remember ye said: “O Moses! we cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech thy Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth groweth, -its pot-herbs, and cucumbers, Its garlic, lentils, and onions.” He said: “Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!” They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and **slaying His Messengers **without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing.
PICKTHAL: And when ye said: O Moses! We are weary of one kind of food; so call upon thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of that which the earth groweth - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its corn and its lentils and its onions. He said: Would ye exchange that which is higher for that which is lower? Go down to settled country, thus ye shall get that which ye demand. And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah’s revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression.
SHAKIR: And when you said: O Musa! we cannot bear with one food, therefore pray Lord on our behalf to bring forth for us out of what the earth grows, of its herbs and its cucumbers and its garlic and its lentils and its onions. He said: Will you exchange that which is better for that which is worse? Enter a city, so you will have what you ask for. And abasement and humiliation were brought down upon them, and they became deserving of Allah’s wrath; this was so because they disbelieved in the communications of Allah and killed the prophets unjustly; this was so because they disobeyed and exceeded the limits.

And YES! Jesus did fufill HIS mission! Praise GOD!

 

[thegame_786]

I’m sorry, but with all the charity I can muster… that is about the worst defense of muslim poppycock I’ve ever read.

“the people who were present during the crucifixation. these were mostly people who hated Jesus (pbuh) and wanted him to suffer terribley (as seen in passion of the christ)”

You’re basing your theory on a movie scene. How do you know Jesus’ enemies outnumbered His followers?
You don’t. Your’s is PURE SPECULATION. Guesswork to defend the indefensible.

“For the record you can’t say Allah has deceived people. it is common knowledge that Jesus (pbuh) was NOT crucified.”

Common knowledge? ROFLMAO Common knowledge to muslims. They get it from the Koran. And the Koran is the word of God. How do we know? Because the Koran says so.

First off all i stated at the start my answer was not definitive just my own personal view to which I did not even spend much time thinking about lol. it was just a quick vague answer which i probably should have elaborated on. secondly the reference to the movie was just a light hearted joke, thirdly please dont associate the word poppycock with islam. i find it offensive. if anything you have to agree that I have been polite and courteous in my reply. is it so hard to do the same back. i mean i find alot of christianity especially cathlicism extremly difficult to digest, often to the point of bewilderment. but i dont call it poppycock,

youre right i dont know the details of when jesus was supposably crucified. all i know is that Allah made it seem that Jesus was crucuified. do i know the details. NO. do i beleive that if Allah wished for that to happen then obviously you can have all the accounts from Romans, jews etc. my point is that it is possible for all historical accounts to be wrong if Allah has stated that the people were deceived. God is capable of anything you have to agree with this at least

Lastly i got a feeling this debate is futile.you will not accept the Quran so there is no point in using that as a basis for my arguement. lets just say you have your faith and I have mine, you will not believe in what i believe and i will not believe in what you believe (this is what the Quran tells us to say in situations like these)

 

[GaryTaylor]

First off all i stated at the start my answer was not definitive just my own personal view to which I did not even spend much time thinking about lol. it was just a quick vague answer which i probably should have elaborated on. secondly the reference to the movie was just a light hearted joke, thirdly please dont associate the word poppycock with islam. i find it offensive. if anything you have to agree that I have been polite and courteous in my reply. is it so hard to do the same back. i mean i find alot of christianity especially cathlicism extremly difficult to digest, often to the point of bewilderment. but i dont call it poppycock,

youre right i dont know the details of when jesus was supposably crucified. all i know is that Allah made it seem that Jesus was crucuified. do i know the details. NO. do i beleive that if Allah wished for that to happen then obviously you can have all the accounts from Romans, jews etc. my point is that it is possible for all historical accounts to be wrong if Allah has stated that the people were deceived. God is capable of anything you have to agree with this at least

Lastly i got a feeling this debate is futile.you will not accept the Quran so there is no point in using that as a basis for my arguement. lets just say you have your faith and I have mine, you will not believe in what i believe and i will not believe in what you believe (this is what the Quran tells us to say in situations like these)

As far as your last paragraph. I agree, but theres a difference here. Many of us have studied the Quran.

All we are suggesting is you take an honest look with an open mind at “Historic Christ” in regards to all authors be it Jews, Romans killing Christains at the time of Nero, or early Christians writters.

If you still believe what you believe? No harm, but I don’t think thats possible. Anyway the choice is yours. I just have never met anyone with an open mind who has studied Christ and not concluded His life and death are recorded as Bible states.

Its a very accurate piece of History. Emporers such as Napoleon who studied History wrote on Him also. Those who chose to destroy, the Huns at the gates of Rome with 60-Thousand soldiers. Walked away without a death convienced in the Supernatural power of Christ. It just goes on and on. But the Crucifixtion is well documented.

Astounding history and truth.

GT

 

[KathleenGee]

El Will, and any others who want to study early Christian history.

Before you do that, you need to discern and learn to find the materials that are honest, factual, historically accurate.

In the first place, you have to decide if you are seeking the truth. I mean, learning is a life long endeavor. So when you seek to read certain books, are you choosing them to support your bias?

Constantine was not baptized, did not become a Christian until only days before his death. Constantine greatly admired the message of Christianity. Its worst persecution and destruction of many bishops and places of worship happened through the last two emperors of the Roman Empire.

Constantine, as a secular ruler, rebuilt and expounded on the message of Christianity by restoring buildings, but elaborating them, at worship putting physical distance between the bishop/priest and the congregation to give greater prominence and glory to the message of Christ. He made Sunday a day of rest for everyone, and allowed Christians to publicly worship that day. What he did for the Church was to restore what his predecessors had torn down, but he did not profess faith and become baptized until his death.

Likewise, the Christian name for Easter is Pascoa/Pasch/Paschal. We in the English and German speaking countries simply evolved to the usage of Easter because of linguistic consideration. But Easter is the Passion of Christ, and the promise of new life that only God can give…and restore.

There was alot of spin going on regarding the Spanish Inquisition. Its documents were finally opened in 2003 at the Vatican, and the contents re-affirmed what church people long suspected…was that there were alot of excesses and exaggerations written about the Inquisition by biased people, two of them being American Restorationists in the mid 1800’s. The Church actually exonerated many of the accused.

The problem at that time was the Eucharist was violated, received out of disbelief or political reasons, a sacrilege…the same as someone attempting to desecrate the Mercy Seat in the old Jewish temple…or desecrating the name of Mohammed.

The Eucharist is God among us.

Recall Abraham and his son Isaac, his initial request by God to sacrifice his only son…and the Angel thwarted him…Isaac was a precursor, a message, a description of what would come to God’s Son…it is only through Jesus and His apostles that it was made known Christ is the Son of God…His baptism at the River Jordan…Christ the Sacrificial Lamb for the atonement of sin.

There is a very popular webpage making these great discoveries about the origins of Christianity…like these were hidden and they are incredible…well…this is all misinformation. You ask these same people if they would instead read factual history of Christianity, and they refuse.

If you want to get a book on the history of Christianity and objective church history—all the good, bad and ugly…I can give you a very good source. I myself don’t want to look at my Church with rose colored glasses…

But yes, please study why you choose only certain angles to your study of Christianity.

Islam expanded through conquering others. Christianity expanded throughout the ancient world by the message of the Living Christ…Who died and resurrected for us and our sins.

Christ’s mission is both to be the atonement for our sins, and the means God the Creator used to create this world…Christ the Word Made Flesh. And through Christ among us, after His death, He made all the world new. He lives within us, and if we are faithful to Him, we become His ministers, His hands, feet, heart, soul, and mind to extend His presence into our lives. We Christians are the means Christ uses to renew the earth. And when we fail Him, we fail miserably.

Being faithful to Christ, living by His grace and power through the Eucharist, is a daily walk requiring daily renewal.

 

[thirddec]

Ok lets see everything is clear in the Quran as you believe it is the pure words of Allah.
It is the only pure words of Allah left. Everything else is second rate so to leave the Quran for explaination brings in error.

By the manifest Book (i.e. this Qur’ân that makes things clear). surah 44:4

By the manifest Book (this Qur’ân) that makes things clear, surah 44:2

worth repeating ; the meaning is always clear!

Verily, We it is Who give life and cause death; and to Us is the final return **surah 50:43
B]

And that it is He (Allâh) Who causes death and gives life. Surah 53:44

worth repeating : it is only Allah that can cause death ( Kill )

so lets read the big one and see what is clear and consistant with the above

**(Sura 4:157,158) ** “That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God’; but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow. For of a surety they killed him not: Nay, God raised him up unto Himself …”

So the Jews didn’t kill him ; of couse they didn’t ; the fools didn’t realise that only Allah can Kill something only Allah has power over life and death. So Christ died ok its just the Jews didn’t kill him.

exactly mirroring what Christ said about everything that day
You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.” (John 19:11)

Of Course Christ showed he had power over death before ; the only Person in the bible to raise the dead. And he still had power over death when he decided it was time he gave up his spirit . And yes we agree He was raised from the Dead to himself.

So none of the events that took place was under the controll of the JEWS nothing happened except as allowed by GOD or as you believe Allah. So the Jews were foolish thinking the were in controll and they Killed him . They were not. So the Quran doesn’t deny the crucifiction. mmmh and thats according to you the pure clear word of Allah ; I don’t need anything else as this is clear .

If I should need more then the Quran is not clear. **

 

[KathleenGee]

The first people to believe and follow Christ were Jews. The Church of Jerusalem was essentially Jewish, and tradition has it that Christ’s mother Mary attended there as well. St. James the Apostle, the Lesser, was the first head or bishop there.

Besides seeking truth with a pure heart and mind, when going back in time, people have to remember context. The Catholic faith looks at Scripture from its entire content, each part relating to the whole.

Quoting our local question and answer man, Deacon Owen Cummings, he says, ‘Remember all texts have a context.’

He says, 'All texts have contexts so that to ignore or to be unaware of the context is to fail to interpret adequately the text. Or, more punchily put in an oft-quoted aphorism of the great 20th century Catholic philosopher and theologian, Jesuit Father Bernard Lonergan, “All ideas have dates.”

‘Knowing the context of a text, knowing its date and its originating circumstances are required to grasp the intention of the text and author.’

When it comes to understanding Jewish faith history in the Old Testament, to know it in depth, I would tend to follow the instructions and insights of Jew, gathering the teachings of culture that has been passed on for thousands of years.

When it comes to understanding Christianity, I would want to first, read and study what Christ said…I would ask for help to understand what He was trying to say…I would look at the people who knew Him and were faithful to Him,…that being the Apostles, and then to question and study how from there Christianity took off, I would then look at those appointed by the Apostles, learn more how the early Church protected this understanding of Christ, and then see what these Christians did, what they set up to protect and insure the person of Christ and His message was properly understood and passed on.

From there, I would then go back and see how Christianity compares to the Jewish Old Testament, to see the connections between it and Christ’s teachings and then see if there is common ground. So many times we hear, read, and witness that Christ, His Church and Sacraments and teachings, are the fulfillment of the Old Testament in how the Jews understood it and lived it out.

I hope this makes sense as to why I and others question Muslims’ claim to be authority of Scripture and Judeo-Christianity living outside of it, and its oftentimes declared war or targeting of Christians…normally we don’t fight back very well…you can take that any way you want, because you will see many reactions by Christians in various forms in reacting to Islam and its manner of influence.

I say the same to Restorationists, and to anybody else who think Catholics are not of the Bible…