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Sirach2
Guest
Some people will do anything to minimize a truth!
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brb3
Guest
Simply saying Johns vision of large multitude gives us no clue as to the % of population that gets to heaven. But, we do know its multicultural… not just Hebrews!Some people will do anything to minimize a truth!
On the otherhand, Christ’s depiction of narrow gate / path entry…and few that enter — is very telling.
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Sirach2
Guest
John’s vision is not one that mankind is privy to understand, so it is foolish to speculate on what he saw, and what he was able to transcribe numerically. Did you miss my post about the “stars in the sky and the sands of the seashore?” How do you reconcile the two scriptures? We simply cannot.
This is why I maintain that it is offensive to God to speculate on the number of those who will be saved, when there is no solid evidence provided by the Church or in scripture. Can you show me a single encyclical from the Church that directs us to evangelize using terminology such as, “Ya better watch out, only a few will make it and be saved” ?
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Liquid47
Guest
Perhaps there is no encyclical, but there is a better text: the Bible. There are 73 books in the Bible, and the books point to one thing: not many people are saved.
- Consider the Noah and the Ark, a proto-salvic story. How many people were saved from the Flood?
- Consider the Exodus, when Moses led the Israelites out of bondage and towards the Promised Land. How many followed Joshua into Canaan? How many perished in the desert?
- Consider the 12 tribes of Israel. How many were destroyed by the Assyrian invasion? How many continued under the (smaller) southern Kingdom of Judah?
One person. Out of the thousands Jesus had preached towards in his three year ministry, one had merited the kingdom of Heaven upon the instant of his death and resurrection. The Beloved Disciple would also be the first Christian to take as his Mother, the Blessed Virgin, who had merited heaven since her Immaculate Conception.
The truth is, very few people go to Heaven. In order to explain why, the obvious question needs to be answered. What is Heaven?
Heaven is eternal communion with the Triune God. It is eternal prayer. The Holy Mass is the carnal reality of the glories of Heaven, the ultimate prayer of confession, petition, thanksgiving, and adoration. One must be absolutely in love with the Holy Mass, for it is a taste of what is to come in Heaven. One must absolutely rejoice in supplementing the Holy Mass with private devotions and sacrifices, because leaving the presence of the Blessed Sacrament is pain enough, but also because additional private prayer is highly favoured by God.
Heaven is total ecstasy in self-oblation to God, and Our Blessed Lord passionately preached us to do exactly the same on Earth.
If that sounds like fanatical hokum, then it’s easy to see why few go there. Most people do not see the Holy Mass as the focus of their lives. Most people do not attempt to right this wrong. Of those that know that it should be their focus, most do not pray for a change of heart, nor do they attempt to build upon it with private prayer and sacrifice.
Very few could look at the paragraphs above the last and say “yes, that is totally me”. If they can, then they can hope in the saving grace of the Lord, that they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. To those that cannot relate to the same paragraphs, they would do very well to heed the words of Christ, who did not over state the truths of Hell. Wide is its gate, and broad is its road.
I’ll dedicate my next 5 decades of the Rosary today to those who read this post and wish to have the heart that leads to Heaven.
May God be with you all!
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Sirach2
Guest
Wonderful job! Do you think they will make you Pope soon? I think Jesus would be so happy that you preach His sacred birth, passion, and resurrection as hope for only a “few” who will benefit from it. What a sublime mission you have embarked upon…straight from the Heart of Christ and the Holy Spirit! How you must delight that you will be one of the few who will not have to share heaven with all those heathens!
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Liquid47
Guest
Just a couple of things,
- I’m not sure if they’ll make me Pope, but I have been praying earnestly over the past year on why I’m not called to the vocation of marriage, and only last month has the constant idea of Holy Orders ever come up. I believe God is compelling me towards the priesthood. It’s hard at the moment because I’m tied up in the entertainment industry, and in order to receive Holy Communion, I need to go to the Confession every week. Please pray for me that I am able to do his will.
- Sarcasm is sinful. It says so in the Catechism of the Catholic Church itself:
I use to be pretty good with cruel wit too (I sometimes still am). You don’t end up the victor though, kinda like how those fools on Calvary taunted Christ by telling him to come down off the Cross.
If you feel compelled to make reparations, make a reparation towards God instead. I don’t demand any apologies
If you want to offer a proper rebuttal to my previous post, then please do so again. It’s not about who’s better, stronger, or more faithful. It’s about charity in truth
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stevekehl
Guest
Well then, see you at Armaggedon. :aok:
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Sirach2
Guest
Liquid47
You have not answered my questions, but sidestepped into judgmentalism. Will you answer them please?
You have not answered my questions, but sidestepped into judgmentalism. Will you answer them please?
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Liquid47
Guest
Sirach, may I ask what your agenda is? I’m not sure if you’re joking or if you’re being serious.
Do I have self-righteous pride? Not only have I claimed constant sinfulness, I’ve asked you to pray to the Lord on behalf of me. You yourself have not once retracted any comments or false accusations against me.
I have not isolated any verses. In fact, I’ve given you both examples from the Old Testament and the New Testament pertaining to the salvation of souls. The entire Bible is the failure of man to turn to God, and despite His own sacrifice on the Cross, man still fails to turn to him. Why else would Paul, in his letters, chastise the baptized Corinthians even after Christ’s death on the cross? (A reminder that this is an additional example to the original ones in my first post)
On the contrary, you have isolated scripture by quoting Jesus rebuking Peter in John 21. You believe it is about who will be saved, but it is not. Jesus had just told Peter he will die for the Lord in a way he will not enjoy (Peter ended up being crucified upside down), and Peter, filled with grief, asked if John the Beloved was called to a similar fate (John would die a natural death).
In that way, Jesus does not want us to compare our paths to salvation, nor who is the more privileged follower; one is not holier because he’s a priest and the other is a tax collector, or that the other will glorify God in his wealth, and one will suffer for God in poverty. However God asks you to glorify him in life, one must accept. Thank God Peter accepted his martyrdom.
So again, I ask, do you have a disturbing agenda, Sirach, or is it because you sincerely do not understand our Deposit of Faith? I have no ill feelings towards you, but you are constantly trying to distress my person, rather than compellingly deconstructing my argument.
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Liquid47
Guest
Did you just edit your post? I find your actions and your comments disturbing, Sirach. My initial reply to you was not an ad hominem. It was you who decided to not answer my questions and decide to sarcastically offend me.
Please refer to the post above to make your next reply.
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MKKW
Guest
Look around you. Consider how few actually want to be saved. Only a relatively small handful of people are good Christians who want to listen to God’s word. So many are lukewarm Christians, or not Christians at all. So many people just want to play by their own rules.
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Sirach2
Guest
I did not say that. My post was edited … you are reading more into it than I intended. In quoting Jesus’ words to the pharisees, I was giving you an example of him using far more than simple sarcasm, as you accused me of doing. It was not a direct reference to you whatsoever, other than to show that there are times when a literary devise may be used, and that Jesus also used it. It is not sinful, as you allege.
Indeed you have! As we celebrate the Christmas message with profound joy, you come on the scene and puncture it with scriptures of damnation and condemnation. It is not only ill-timed, but it is not a message that is taught by the Church.
Again, I ask you to answer my question: show me where the Church Herself teaches that only a few will be saved. If that is your message, I denounce it as false, and ask that you listen to the gospel readings, especially of this holy season.
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Sirach2
Guest
There we are, you with your understanding, me with mine. You missed the point entirely, I’m afraid. It should not matter to Peter what anyone else’s vocation is, and he was finger-pointing and inquiring into business not his own. Jesus told him, “What is that to thee? Follow me.”
That’s the bottom line. You are here in this thread attempting to persuade the faithful of what? That few of us will be saved? That many will go to hell? Is that your business? Is this the Church’s Christmas message?
I say to you again in Jesus’ words: What is that to you? If my words are strong, then so be it. I think your post is entirely out of place. What’s more, I noticed your on-line activity at this time, looking for document proof to back up your words about hell. That tells me it’s time to exit this thread before my Christmas spirit is spoiled any further.
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Liquid47
Guest
This is getting quite unacceptable. Sarcasm is a literary device, but it is never an acceptable one. Jesus used righteous anger. Yours is passive aggressive jest. In any case, you are being disingenuous here, but it is not for me to come to terms with it.
Have you never heard the saying that over the shoulder of Christmas is the foot of the Cross? It’s a very popular phrase used in Christmas homilies, because in fifteen minutes the Priest will be celebrating the glorious death of Our Blessed Lord (and three months 'til the Lenten season). And c’mon, we’re Catholic. We’re unique among Christians for our constant desire to parade the crucifixion. Not even our Orthodox brethren dare to the same.
CONCERNING ON THE NUMBER SAVED
First, the most important passage:
“Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction,*** and many there are who go in thereat***. 14 How narrow is the gate, and strait is the way that leadeth to life: and few there are that find it!” (Matt 7:13-14)
We’ll get back to that passage in a second.
I’m not sure how to show you what you want, because you’ve firstly decided to reject many books of Sacred Scripture (look to my original post about the stories of the perished and the saved). I’m not appealing to sola scriptura, but you are certainly sweeping my scriptural arguments under the rug, along with the other things you’ve done already, including all (or many? or few?) of the quotes attributed to saints of the ages. Denying the saints wholesale is what the Protestants do (and naturally they believe everyone will be saved anyway).
And then if you want the Church’s teachings in explicit writing, I can’t point you to any one document (which would almost constitute as sola encyclicera or something similar). What I can point to you is both tradition and Tradition, of which our Church is proud of. The first and most obvious one is “Outside the Church There Is No Salvation”. It means what it means, but in the last 50 years, it has been unfortunately spun to mean something completely different. But quite simply, that doctrine in honest practice states that if the amount of baptized souls in the world is much less than the sum of the entire number of people who ever lived (and we will include the number of pre-Christian righteous souls awaiting Christ’s victory), and if not all the baptized souls will enter the Beatific Vision due to the rejection of Christ in some way, shape, or form, then more people will enter Hell than go to Heaven.
Jesus did not say ‘half will go to heaven, half will go to hell’, he did not say ‘Most people would have entered Hell, but I’ll override that anyway’, he said what he said in Matthew 7: 13-14. Remember that Matthew’s Gospel is one to the Jews, who thought that by being God’s own People, they will be delivered from evil because of their heritage (whether they were Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, or Zealots). Rather, Christ preached salvation in good works and true faith, which he implied, through the Gospel of Matthew for the Jews, is not as easy to come as many had believed.
I stress that we cannot know the number of those saved, but according to Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, we can know there’s no even number going either way.
In summary:
- Jesus himself proclaimed the distribution of human souls into Heaven and Hell.
- Sacred Scripture, when read in light of reason, confirms what Our Blessed Lord said. From the many that turned away from God and perished in the Old Testament, to Peter and Paul writing about salvation as scarce and delicate, the the fewness of the faithful is sound.
- Sacred Tradition of the fathers, saints, and theologians affirm this. You laughed it off on the first page, but unless you want to accuse every single sermon, letter, or journal of the faithful as being forged or fabricated (and what a scandalous Church we live in if that’s the case), they too say fewer enter heaven than enter hell, like Jesus taught.
- In relation to the previous one, the living Church through its proclamation of “No Salvation Outside the Church”, when read in light of everything previous, also affirms it.
The concept of the fewness saved and hope in Christ is not something to delve deeply into in the same manner as the discourse about a creature’s free will and God’s divine foreknowledge.
If I have caused despair in fellow Catholics, I apologize. I do confess to hope in the Lord for our salvation, but always be vigilant!
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Liquid47
Guest
Just reading Sirach’s last message, I’m sorry she/he feels that way. I don’t mean to ruin anyone’s Christmas, but I’m also aware of the strange indignant tone of the posts.
In any case, I want to be open with other people, especially from learned persons about the topic. If I am wrong, I am wrong, and deserve to be reprimanded justly!
In any case, I want to be open with other people, especially from learned persons about the topic. If I am wrong, I am wrong, and deserve to be reprimanded justly!
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brb3
Guest
Sirach2…
Christ talks of the sacrifice and hardship of discipleship in scripture, and that many that start the journey give up and turn back. Do a survey of all the scripture that speaks to this topic …and you will discover very few, if any, that suggest that a majority make heaven.
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brb3
Guest
You’re right … no reprimand needed. Not sure what set Sirach2 off.
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rellanor
Guest
The question of whether there are more people in heaven or hell is answered by Jesus Himself in one succinct passage: “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matthew 7:13-14).
This passage tells us that only those who receive Jesus Christ and who believe in Him are given the right to become children of God (John 1:12). As such, the gift of eternal life comes only through Jesus Christ to all those who believe. He said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). It’s not through Islam, Buddha, or other false gods of man’s making. It’s not for those wanting a cheap and easy way to heaven while continuing to live their own selfish and worldly lives on earth. Jesus only saves those who fully trust in Him as Savior (Acts 4:12)…
So, what are these two gates in Matthew 7:13-14? They are the entrance to two different “ways.” The wide gate leads to the broad way, or road. The small narrow gate leads to the way that is narrow. The narrow way is the way of the godly, and the broad way is the way of the ungodly. The broad way is the easy way. It is attractive and self-indulgent. It is permissive. It’s the inclusive way of the world, with few rules, few restrictions, and fewer requirements. Tolerance of sin is the norm where God’s Word is not studied and His standards not followed. This way requires no spiritual maturity, no moral character, no commitment, and no sacrifice. It is the easy way of salvation following “the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:2). It is that broad way that “seems right to a man, but end is the way to death” (Proverbs 14:12).
Those who preach a gospel of inclusiveness where “all ways lead to heaven” preach an utterly different gospel than the one Jesus preached. The gate of self-centeredness, self-absorption, and a proud, holier-than-thou mindset is the wide gate of the world that leads to hell, not the narrow gate which leads to eternal life. As a result, most people spend their lives following the masses who are on the broad road, doing what everyone else does and believing what everyone else believes.
The narrow way is the hard way, the demanding way. It is the way of recognizing that you cannot save yourself and must depend on Jesus Christ alone to save you. It’s the way of self-denial and the cross. The fact that few find God’s way implies that it is to be sought diligently. “You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart” (Jeremiah 29:13). The point is this that no one will stumble into the kingdom or wander through the narrow gate by accident. Someone asked Jesus: "Lord, will those who are saved be few?” He replied, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able” (Luke 13:23-24).
Many will seek to enter that narrow door, the door of salvation, but “will not be able.” They are unwilling to trust/rely on Jesus alone. They are unwilling to pay the price. It costs too much for them to give up the world. God’s gate is a gate through which one cannot carry the baggage of sin and self-will, nor can one carry the accoutrements of materialism. The way of Christ is the way of the cross, and the way of the cross is the way of self-denial. Jesus said, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it” (Luke 9:23-24).
Jesus knows that many will choose the wide gate and the broad way which leads to destruction and hell. Correspondingly, He said that only a few will choose the narrow gate. According to Matthew 7:13-14, there is no doubt that more will go to hell than to heaven. The question for you is, then, on which road are you on.
This passage tells us that only those who receive Jesus Christ and who believe in Him are given the right to become children of God (John 1:12). As such, the gift of eternal life comes only through Jesus Christ to all those who believe. He said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (John 14:6). It’s not through Islam, Buddha, or other false gods of man’s making. It’s not for those wanting a cheap and easy way to heaven while continuing to live their own selfish and worldly lives on earth. Jesus only saves those who fully trust in Him as Savior (Acts 4:12)…
So, what are these two gates in Matthew 7:13-14? They are the entrance to two different “ways.” The wide gate leads to the broad way, or road. The small narrow gate leads to the way that is narrow. The narrow way is the way of the godly, and the broad way is the way of the ungodly. The broad way is the easy way. It is attractive and self-indulgent. It is permissive. It’s the inclusive way of the world, with few rules, few restrictions, and fewer requirements. Tolerance of sin is the norm where God’s Word is not studied and His standards not followed. This way requires no spiritual maturity, no moral character, no commitment, and no sacrifice. It is the easy way of salvation following “the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:2). It is that broad way that “seems right to a man, but end is the way to death” (Proverbs 14:12).
Those who preach a gospel of inclusiveness where “all ways lead to heaven” preach an utterly different gospel than the one Jesus preached. The gate of self-centeredness, self-absorption, and a proud, holier-than-thou mindset is the wide gate of the world that leads to hell, not the narrow gate which leads to eternal life. As a result, most people spend their lives following the masses who are on the broad road, doing what everyone else does and believing what everyone else believes.
The narrow way is the hard way, the demanding way. It is the way of recognizing that you cannot save yourself and must depend on Jesus Christ alone to save you. It’s the way of self-denial and the cross. The fact that few find God’s way implies that it is to be sought diligently. “You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart” (Jeremiah 29:13). The point is this that no one will stumble into the kingdom or wander through the narrow gate by accident. Someone asked Jesus: "Lord, will those who are saved be few?” He replied, “Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able” (Luke 13:23-24).
Many will seek to enter that narrow door, the door of salvation, but “will not be able.” They are unwilling to trust/rely on Jesus alone. They are unwilling to pay the price. It costs too much for them to give up the world. God’s gate is a gate through which one cannot carry the baggage of sin and self-will, nor can one carry the accoutrements of materialism. The way of Christ is the way of the cross, and the way of the cross is the way of self-denial. Jesus said, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it” (Luke 9:23-24).
Jesus knows that many will choose the wide gate and the broad way which leads to destruction and hell. Correspondingly, He said that only a few will choose the narrow gate. According to Matthew 7:13-14, there is no doubt that more will go to hell than to heaven. The question for you is, then, on which road are you on.
J
juliamajor
Guest
God sent His only son not to condemn the world but to save it. Who goes to hell and who doesn’t is no for me to say. Nor should I speculate.
The sheep and the goats were both surprised to find out what their fate was.
There are many people who seem pious and godly but have a heart that is not. Only God truly knows the ones who obey him and have a heart for Him.
To to worry about anyone else 's soul but your own and how you REALLY stand with God requires more effort and soul searching than most of us can stomach. The being in the mirror is the one you should be concerned for first.
Would anyone who read Genesis honestly would think that Jacob would become anything but a trickster and wind up on the narrow road? Or Rahab the prostitute? Or Simon Peter?
How many, in numbers? I think that the Lord would think that losing one sheep would be to lose too many. Is’nt that why the Good Shepherd leaves the rest of his flock and goes after the ONE?
The sheep and the goats were both surprised to find out what their fate was.
There are many people who seem pious and godly but have a heart that is not. Only God truly knows the ones who obey him and have a heart for Him.
To to worry about anyone else 's soul but your own and how you REALLY stand with God requires more effort and soul searching than most of us can stomach. The being in the mirror is the one you should be concerned for first.
Would anyone who read Genesis honestly would think that Jacob would become anything but a trickster and wind up on the narrow road? Or Rahab the prostitute? Or Simon Peter?
How many, in numbers? I think that the Lord would think that losing one sheep would be to lose too many. Is’nt that why the Good Shepherd leaves the rest of his flock and goes after the ONE?
R
rellanor
Guest
This is refreshing someone who knows that Christ know what is inside us and doesnt wear a mask to please others-- this is golden.
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