A friend and i were talking about Purgatory

[ErricFiggy]

Someone brought up the passage of Lazarus and the rich man. I commented that the rich man was most likely in purgatory, since he was communicating with Lazarus and Abraham, and in Hell you can’t communicate with anyone or show compassion, like the rich man was showing when he begged Abraham to warn his brothers so they wouldn’t suffer the same fate. My conversation with a friend roughly like this:

My friend asked if I believe in Purgatory and I said yes.
He asked: "what about the thief on the cross? Jesus said “today you will be with me in paradise.”
I said “it’s possible that after he repented of his sins and accepted Jesus, he died right after. So he didn’t have any sins on his soul before he died.”
he said “but he was a criminal, he was a thief.”
I decided to change direction, and asked him “where did Jesus go after He did?”
my friend said “to heaven.”
I said “no, because we saw that Jesus ascended into Heaven after speaking to the apostles. But he rose after three days, so where was He during those three days?”
He stayed silent and said that he would study it more from the Bible so we could talk about. I encouraged him to do so.

So my question is, was I in the right track in explaining Purgatory? Did i handle it well? Looking back, I feel like i starting veering more in the direction of the Bosom of Abraham instead of purgatory…but i do feel like I planted a seed, getting him to think of other possibilities other then just Heaven and a Hell. What would have been a proper response to his thief on the cross claim?

Thank you all, and sorry for the wall of text

 

[Godfollower]

I believe that the Church affirmatively teaches that Jesus was in the abode of the dead for three days – the place where the souls of the saints were waiting until He opened the doors of Heaven.

As for the concept of “other places” than Heaven and Hell, clearly there are: where are the people standing in Matthew 25 when He separates the sheep from the goats and then sends them to their final destinations? They clearly aren’t in Heaven (because the sheep on His right are being sorted to go there based on their lives), and they clearly aren’t in Hell (because the goats on His left are being sorted to go there based on their lives); ergo, they’re somewhere else.

And there’s nothing in the Bible that contradicts the concept of Jesus cleansing the sheep on His right as they head off to Heaven. That purging process is called Purgatory. The Church doesn’t say that Purgatory takes any time at all (though it might); she doesn’t teach that Purgatory is a final destination (it clearly is not, because it is only available to those headed to Heaven).

My guess is that the “good thief” was purged of his sins by Jesus Himself right then.

 

[jschutzm]

I think you are heading in the right direction… even if you veer a little to talk about where Jesus is.

I WOULD, however, answer the question about the Good Thief more directly.

In that we see that God can show great mercy and that the Good Thief could represent an exception to the rule. We have no reason to doubt all the rest of the passages which DO seem to point towards a state between heaven and hell MERELY and EXCLUSIVELY based on this one passage.

As you have already shown there are other interpretations for that one sequence in the bible. Perhaps his faith and subsequent death was attributed to him as ‘righteousness’ and therefore he went straight to heaven, having no more sin or temporal stain on him. - MAYBE

Maybe he went to Purgatory but that same ‘day’ (what is a day to God anyways once you leave Earth) WAS, TRULY in heaven with Christ.
The Church no where teaches that Purgatory is a physical place and so our concept of “time” in Purgatory, Heaven, or Hell are completely invalid and flawed. However, the writers had no other way to convey the idea.

We MAY even find that the word “day” in the original Greek has more then one meaning or context… Anyone an expert on Koine Greek and 1st century ‘figures of speech’ ??? - I’m not.

But what we DO know is that there are OTHER verses which seem to hint at Purgatory.

1. Christ himself says that we will not get out of jail until we pay the last penny… what does he mean by “jail” ? – We can’t get out of Hell and Heaven is not a Jail. And what does he mean by “pay the last penny” ?? We can not repay our debt in hell and there is no debt to pay in Heaven.
2. Christ says that some sins will not be forgiven in this world “or the next” - What does he mean by ‘next’ ?? This seems to indicate that at least SOME sins ARE forgiven in the next life. But in Hell, no sins are forgiven. And in Heaven… there are no sins TO forgive. So what ‘world’ is he referring to where there seems to be a possibility of at least some sins being forgiven?
3. Paul says that when we die… our deeds will be tested and those which are burned up will be counted as lost…and that some of us will pass through, but only as someone who enters through fire. – This is the classic Catholic verse referring to Purgatory. The ‘process’ that Paul is elluding to is WHERE the term “Purgatory” comes from. He is talking about a process of ‘purgation’ (a place of purgation is called “Purgatory”) This process ‘purges’ us of any ties we have to our sin.
4. Book of Macabees, which was part of the Bible 'til the Protestants decided to throw it out (who gave them that right?), and that Catholics bibles still contain, Talks about how the General Macabee prayed for the souls of his fallen soldiers who died with pagan emulets around their necks. - He didn’t know if they were in Heaven or Hell…but he had his soldiers pray for them. This was seen as righteous and a faithful act.
   But WHY pray for the deceased at all? - if they are in Hell, a prayer can’t get them OUT. If they are in heaven… a prayer is not needed, as they have been forgiven. So WHERE does Macabees think his dead comrades are if not Heaven or Hell?
   Macabees shows that the concept of Purgatory or a place between heaven and hell existed in Judaism and was NOT invented by Catholicism.

 

[rfournier103]

I think you are heading in the right direction… even if you veer a little to talk about where Jesus is.

I WOULD, however, answer the question about the Good Thief more directly.

In that we see that God can show great mercy and that the Good Thief could represent an exception to the rule. We have no reason to doubt all the rest of the passages which DO seem to point towards a state between heaven and hell MERELY and EXCLUSIVELY based on this one passage.

As you have already shown there are other interpretations for that one sequence in the bible. Perhaps his faith and subsequent death was attributed to him as ‘righteousness’ and therefore he went straight to heaven, having no more sin or temporal stain on him. - MAYBE

Maybe he went to Purgatory but that same ‘day’ (what is a day to God anyways once you leave Earth) WAS, TRULY in heaven with Christ.
The Church no where teaches that Purgatory is a physical place and so our concept of “time” in Purgatory, Heaven, or Hell are completely invalid and flawed. However, the writers had no other way to convey the idea.

We MAY even find that the word “day” in the original Greek has more then one meaning or context… Anyone an expert on Koine Greek and 1st century ‘figures of speech’ ??? - I’m not.

But what we DO know is that there are OTHER verses which seem to hint at Purgatory.

1. Christ himself says that we will not get out of jail until we pay the last penny… what does he mean by “jail” ? – We can’t get out of Hell and Heaven is not a Jail. And what does he mean by “pay the last penny” ?? We can not repay our debt in hell and there is no debt to pay in Heaven.
2. Christ says that some sins will not be forgiven in this world “or the next” - What does he mean by ‘next’ ?? This seems to indicate that at least SOME sins ARE forgiven in the next life. But in Hell, no sins are forgiven. And in Heaven… there are no sins TO forgive. So what ‘world’ is he referring to where there seems to be a possibility of at least some sins being forgiven?
3. Paul says that when we die… our deeds will be tested and those which are burned up will be counted as lost…and that some of us will pass through, but only as someone who enters through fire. – This is the classic Catholic verse referring to Purgatory. The ‘process’ that Paul is elluding to is WHERE the term “Purgatory” comes from. He is talking about a process of ‘purgation’ (a place of purgation is called “Purgatory”) This process ‘purges’ us of any ties we have to our sin.
4. Book of Macabees, which was part of the Bible 'til the Protestants decided to throw it out (who gave them that right?), and that Catholics bibles still contain, Talks about how the General Macabee prayed for the souls of his fallen soldiers who died with pagan emulets around their necks. - He didn’t know if they were in Heaven or Hell…but he had his soldiers pray for them. This was seen as righteous and a faithful act.
   But WHY pray for the deceased at all? - if they are in Hell, a prayer can’t get them OUT. If they are in heaven… a prayer is not needed, as they have been forgiven. So WHERE does Macabees think his dead comrades are if not Heaven or Hell?
   Macabees shows that the concept of Purgatory or a place between heaven and hell existed in Judaism and was NOT invented by Catholicism.

I love your post, jschutzm. Purgatory and prayer for the dead are very hard topics when discussing with Protestants. I don’t know why so many get bent out of shape about Purgatory and prayer for the dead, but I think this topic needs to be put out there. So many think the Catholic Church “invented” Purgatory so it could collect money for masses to be said for the deceased. It is far older than that indeed. Thanks for the great post!

 

[ErricFiggy]

I think you are heading in the right direction… even if you veer a little to talk about where Jesus is.

I WOULD, however, answer the question about the Good Thief more directly.

In that we see that God can show great mercy and that the Good Thief could represent an exception to the rule. We have no reason to doubt all the rest of the passages which DO seem to point towards a state between heaven and hell MERELY and EXCLUSIVELY based on this one passage.

As you have already shown there are other interpretations for that one sequence in the bible. Perhaps his faith and subsequent death was attributed to him as ‘righteousness’ and therefore he went straight to heaven, having no more sin or temporal stain on him. - MAYBE

Maybe he went to Purgatory but that same ‘day’ (what is a day to God anyways once you leave Earth) WAS, TRULY in heaven with Christ.
The Church no where teaches that Purgatory is a physical place and so our concept of “time” in Purgatory, Heaven, or Hell are completely invalid and flawed. However, the writers had no other way to convey the idea.

We MAY even find that the word “day” in the original Greek has more then one meaning or context… Anyone an expert on Koine Greek and 1st century ‘figures of speech’ ??? - I’m not.

But what we DO know is that there are OTHER verses which seem to hint at Purgatory.

1. Christ himself says that we will not get out of jail until we pay the last penny… what does he mean by “jail” ? – We can’t get out of Hell and Heaven is not a Jail. And what does he mean by “pay the last penny” ?? We can not repay our debt in hell and there is no debt to pay in Heaven.
2. Christ says that some sins will not be forgiven in this world “or the next” - What does he mean by ‘next’ ?? This seems to indicate that at least SOME sins ARE forgiven in the next life. But in Hell, no sins are forgiven. And in Heaven… there are no sins TO forgive. So what ‘world’ is he referring to where there seems to be a possibility of at least some sins being forgiven?
3. Paul says that when we die… our deeds will be tested and those which are burned up will be counted as lost…and that some of us will pass through, but only as someone who enters through fire. – This is the classic Catholic verse referring to Purgatory. The ‘process’ that Paul is elluding to is WHERE the term “Purgatory” comes from. He is talking about a process of ‘purgation’ (a place of purgation is called “Purgatory”) This process ‘purges’ us of any ties we have to our sin.
4. Book of Macabees, which was part of the Bible 'til the Protestants decided to throw it out (who gave them that right?), and that Catholics bibles still contain, Talks about how the General Macabee prayed for the souls of his fallen soldiers who died with pagan emulets around their necks. - He didn’t know if they were in Heaven or Hell…but he had his soldiers pray for them. This was seen as righteous and a faithful act.
   But WHY pray for the deceased at all? - if they are in Hell, a prayer can’t get them OUT. If they are in heaven… a prayer is not needed, as they have been forgiven. So WHERE does Macabees think his dead comrades are if not Heaven or Hell?
   Macabees shows that the concept of Purgatory or a place between heaven and hell existed in Judaism and was NOT invented by Catholicism.

Hmm, that’s interesting. I wish i could have addressed the thief in the cross question more, but honestly the response I gave was the only one that came to mind. I didn’t want to wing it, because I know that’s even worse then not giving an answer but thank you for this info though, we didn’t have any Bibles on us since this came up in a casual conversation at the park. But he said he was going to study and prepare for next time, so we will have them then and I’m definitely going to do some homework of my own. Please pray that the Holy Spirit speaks through me and that the seed that was planted in a him grows thank you!

 

[johnnyjones]

The correct translation of the thief on the cross is, “THIS DAY I TELL YOU…you will be with me in paradise .” I think it would actually be pretty foolish of us to think we could go from this stinking flesh full of sin right into the presence of God without preperation. That includes burning off the sins, purging the old self. Some of us (myself fully included) will need Purgatory because we are simply not ready for heaven.

 

[rfournier103]

I think you are heading in the right direction… even if you veer a little to talk about where Jesus is.

I WOULD, however, answer the question about the Good Thief more directly.

In that we see that God can show great mercy and that the Good Thief could represent an exception to the rule. We have no reason to doubt all the rest of the passages which DO seem to point towards a state between heaven and hell MERELY and EXCLUSIVELY based on this one passage.

As you have already shown there are other interpretations for that one sequence in the bible. Perhaps his faith and subsequent death was attributed to him as ‘righteousness’ and therefore he went straight to heaven, having no more sin or temporal stain on him. - MAYBE

Maybe he went to Purgatory but that same ‘day’ (what is a day to God anyways once you leave Earth) WAS, TRULY in heaven with Christ.
The Church no where teaches that Purgatory is a physical place and so our concept of “time” in Purgatory, Heaven, or Hell are completely invalid and flawed. However, the writers had no other way to convey the idea.

We MAY even find that the word “day” in the original Greek has more then one meaning or context… Anyone an expert on Koine Greek and 1st century ‘figures of speech’ ??? - I’m not.

But what we DO know is that there are OTHER verses which seem to hint at Purgatory.

1. Christ himself says that we will not get out of jail until we pay the last penny… what does he mean by “jail” ? – We can’t get out of Hell and Heaven is not a Jail. And what does he mean by “pay the last penny” ?? We can not repay our debt in hell and there is no debt to pay in Heaven.
2. Christ says that some sins will not be forgiven in this world “or the next” - What does he mean by ‘next’ ?? This seems to indicate that at least SOME sins ARE forgiven in the next life. But in Hell, no sins are forgiven. And in Heaven… there are no sins TO forgive. So what ‘world’ is he referring to where there seems to be a possibility of at least some sins being forgiven?
3. Paul says that when we die… our deeds will be tested and those which are burned up will be counted as lost…and that some of us will pass through, but only as someone who enters through fire. – This is the classic Catholic verse referring to Purgatory. The ‘process’ that Paul is elluding to is WHERE the term “Purgatory” comes from. He is talking about a process of ‘purgation’ (a place of purgation is called “Purgatory”) This process ‘purges’ us of any ties we have to our sin.
4. Book of Macabees, which was part of the Bible 'til the Protestants decided to throw it out (who gave them that right?), and that Catholics bibles still contain, Talks about how the General Macabee prayed for the souls of his fallen soldiers who died with pagan emulets around their necks. - He didn’t know if they were in Heaven or Hell…but he had his soldiers pray for them. This was seen as righteous and a faithful act.
   But WHY pray for the deceased at all? - if they are in Hell, a prayer can’t get them OUT. If they are in heaven… a prayer is not needed, as they have been forgiven. So WHERE does Macabees think his dead comrades are if not Heaven or Hell?
   Macabees shows that the concept of Purgatory or a place between heaven and hell existed in Judaism and was NOT invented by Catholicism.

I am someone who is NOT very well-versed in Biblical study. I know the passage you cited in number 4, but where may I find the passages you cited in 1, 2, and 3?

Thank you

 

[jschutzm]

Hmm, that’s interesting. I wish i could have addressed the thief in the cross question more, but honestly the response I gave was the only one that came to mind. I didn’t want to wing it, because I know that’s even worse then not giving an answer but thank you for this info though, we didn’t have any Bibles on us since this came up in a casual conversation at the park. But he said he was going to study and prepare for next time, so we will have them then and I’m definitely going to do some homework of my own. Please pray that the Holy Spirit speaks through me and that the seed that was planted in a him grows thank you!

YES… as I have learned the hard way with my Wife, who is Baptist… more harm then good can be done by “winging it” when you don’t truly know the answer.

But I think you did a REALLY good job. And you shouldn’t be too hard on yourself. It is easy for us, here on the Worldwide Web to sit back and come up with answers.

Much harder to remember all these points when you are sitting next to a person and didn’t choose the topic.

And, having said that… let me just be humble by saying…by no means am I an expert, or even play one on TV.
I am merely paraphrasing and in some cases regurgitating what I’ve heard on Catholic Answers LIVE and from this site: scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

I would read the information at that link. scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html ,but also read the verses which are referenced, yourself, so you are familiar with what they say. In some cases I think Scripture Catholic may read into things a very Catholic perspective that many non-Catholics won’t have.
So read the verses yourself and see if you think they fit.

 

[ErricFiggy]

I am someone who is NOT very well-versed in Biblical study. I know the passage you cited in number 4, but where may I find the passages you cited in 1, 2, and 3?

Thank you

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

That has excellent verses that pertain to Purgatory that have helped me

 

[ErricFiggy]

Wow J! How crazy is that, here you are referencing it to me and at the same time me to another thank you for your responses they’re really encouraging

 

[Godfollower]

I am someone who is NOT very well-versed in Biblical study. I know the passage you cited in number 4, but where may I find the passages you cited in 1, 2, and 3?

Thank you

1 - Jail until we have paid the last penny (two cites).

And when thou goest with thy adversary to the prince, whilst thou art in the way, endeavour to be delivered from him: lest perhaps he draw thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the exacter, and the exacter cast thee into prison. I say to thee, thou shalt not go out thence, until thou pay the very last mite.

Luke 12:58-59.

Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who would take an account of his servants. And when he had begun to take the account, one was brought to him, that owed him ten thousand talents. And as he had not wherewith to pay it, his lord commanded that he should be sold, and his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.

But that servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And the lord of that servant being moved with pity, let him go and forgave him the debt. But when that servant was gone out, he found one of his fellow servants that owed him an hundred pence: and laying hold of him, throttled him, saying: Pay what thou owest. And his fellow servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he paid the debt.

Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done. Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

Matthew 18:21-35.

2 - Cannot be forgiven in this world “or the next”

Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Matthew 12:31-32.

3 - Some will be saved, but only “as through fire”

According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15.

 

[jschutzm]

The correct translation of the thief on the cross is, “THIS DAY I TELL YOU…you will be with me in paradise .” I think it would actually be pretty foolish of us to think we could go from this stinking flesh full of sin right into the presence of God without preperation. That includes burning off the sins, purging the old self. Some of us (myself fully included) will need Purgatory because we are simply not ready for heaven.

AMEN! – I second that!

I think it is incredibly naive.

Some Protestant groups believe that Christ’s sacrifice ‘covers’ their sins… kind of like they are still there…but the blood of Christ simply covers OVER them… like a blanket or coating. So that their sins are hidden from God.

To a Catholic… this is a bit like God ‘pretends’ that you are OK and sinless and if God can’t SEE the sin… it doesn’t exist. - Which to a Catholic, kinda makes a mockery of justice and the omniscience of God.

BETTER if our sins were TRULY purged or removed from us, so that they were truly gone and we were truly clean and without sin… no pretending on God’s part,

ONE line of reasoning that I heard… simplifies Purgatory to this 1 principle.

**Q1: ** At the end of your life, when you die, are you PERFECT? - Without even 1 single Sin? Without any attachment or tendency towards sin?

A1: NO

** Q2: **In heaven are you without Sin or any tendency towards sin?

A2: YES

RESPONSE: Then you believe in Purgatory - because that is the name that Catholics give to the process or transition between those 2 states.

 

[Godfollower]

AMEN! – I second that!

I think it is incredibly naive.

Some Protestant groups believe that Christ’s sacrifice ‘covers’ their sins… kind of like they are still there…but the blood of Christ simply covers OVER them… like a blanket or coating. So that their sins are hidden from God.

To a Catholic… this is a bit like God ‘pretends’ that you are OK and sinless and if God can’t SEE the sin… it doesn’t exist. - Which to a Catholic, kinda makes a mockery of justice and the omniscience of God.

BETTER if our sins were TRULY purged or removed from us, so that they were truly gone and we were truly clean and without sin… no pretending on God’s part,

ONE line of reasoning that I heard… simplifies Purgatory to this 1 principle.

**Q1: ** At the end of your life, when you die, are you PERFECT? - Without even 1 single Sin? Without any attachment or tendency towards sin?

A1: NO

** Q2: **In heaven are you without Sin or any tendency towards sin?

A2: YES

RESPONSE: Then you believe in Purgatory - because that is the name that Catholics give to the process or transition between those 2 states.

Well put. As the Bible says, “There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb.” Revelation 21:27.

 

[po18guy]

Paradise is not heaven. Jesus descended to the abode of the righteous dead. There, He preached the Gospel to those spirits in prison See 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:6. The gates of heaven were not opened until Jesus ascended. Here is Saint Jerome’s translation from the Latin Vulgate, preceded by the English translation from the Douay-Rheims.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him: “Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise.”

Luke 23:43 et dixit illi Iesus “amen dico tibi hodie mecum eris in paradiso”

Neither of these is the Aramaic which Jesus spoke on the cross, as we see from **Mark 15:3 **. Someone who speaks Syriac (which is much closer to the Aramaic) may be able to provide a clearer or older transliteration. However, look at the Old Testament usage of “paradise.” In the Douay-Rheims, which is Catholic and pre-dates the King James Version, “paradise” invariably refers to earth. “Heaven” is used separately, and in a different context. No protestant bible mentions “paradise” outside of the New Testament. Since heaven is referred to throughout both Catholic and protestant Old Testaments, how can “paradise” refer to heaven? I think that the protestant rejection of the Church teaching on purgatory has flavored their translations. They rarely if ever, in my experience, mention where Jesus went upon His death.

 

[thistle]

Someone brought up the passage of Lazarus and the rich man. I commented that the rich man was most likely in purgatory, since he was communicating with Lazarus and Abraham, and in Hell you can’t communicate with anyone or show compassion, like the rich man was showing when he begged Abraham to warn his brothers so they wouldn’t suffer the same fate. My conversation with a friend roughly like this:

My friend asked if I believe in Purgatory and I said yes.
He asked: "what about the thief on the cross? Jesus said “today you will be with me in paradise.”
I said “it’s possible that after he repented of his sins and accepted Jesus, he died right after. So he didn’t have any sins on his soul before he died.”
he said “but he was a criminal, he was a thief.”
I decided to change direction, and asked him “where did Jesus go after He did?”
my friend said “to heaven.”
I said “no, because we saw that Jesus ascended into Heaven after speaking to the apostles. But he rose after three days, so where was He during those three days?”
He stayed silent and said that he would study it more from the Bible so we could talk about. I encouraged him to do so.

So my question is, was I in the right track in explaining Purgatory? Did i handle it well? Looking back, I feel like i starting veering more in the direction of the Bosom of Abraham instead of purgatory…but i do feel like I planted a seed, getting him to think of other possibilities other then just Heaven and a Hell. What would have been a proper response to his thief on the cross claim?

Thank you all, and sorry for the wall of text

The thief on the cross was probably the first instance of baptism of desire. Baptism removes original sin and personal sin.

 

[ErricFiggy]

Someone brought up the passage of Lazarus and the rich man. I commented that the rich man was most likely in purgatory, since he was communicating with Lazarus and Abraham, and in Hell you can’t communicate with anyone or show compassion, like the rich man was showing when he begged Abraham to warn his brothers so they wouldn’t suffer the same fate. My conversation with a friend roughly like this:

My friend asked if I believe in Purgatory and I said yes.
He asked: "what about the thief on the cross? Jesus said “today you will be with me in paradise.”
I said “it’s possible that after he repented of his sins and accepted Jesus, he died right after. So he didn’t have any sins on his soul before he died.”
he said “but he was a criminal, he was a thief.”
I decided to change direction, and asked him “where did Jesus go after He did?”
my friend said “to heaven.”
I said “no, because we saw that Jesus ascended into Heaven after speaking to the apostles. But he rose after three days, so where was He during those three days?”
He stayed silent and said that he would study it more from the Bible so we could talk about. I encouraged him to do so.

So my question is, was I in the right track in explaining Purgatory? Did i handle it well? Looking back, I feel like i starting veering more in the direction of the Bosom of Abraham instead of purgatory…but i do feel like I planted a seed, getting him to think of other possibilities other then just Heaven and a Hell. What would have been a proper response to his thief on the cross claim?

Thank you all, and sorry for the wall of text

The thief on the cross was probably the first instance of baptism of desire. Baptism removes original sin and personal sin.

YES! I remembered that bit of information, but i didn’t want to switch topics. He asked about purgatory so i figured we’d stick to that and talk about baptism another time.

 

[Evan]

The thief on the cross was probably the first instance of baptism of desire. Baptism removes original sin and personal sin.

Since the thief knew Jesus, it is possible, he had already been baptized by Jesus or the Apostles.

But we also know that the requirement for Baptism did not come about for another 40 days, at the time of the ascension. So if he was a circumsized Jew, he went to paradise (Purgatory or Abraham’s Bosom), then he could then proceed to heaven when Jesus freed those OT saints.

 

[po18guy]

Since the thief knew Jesus, it is possible, he had already been baptized by Jesus or the Apostles.

But we also know that the requirement for Baptism did not come about for another 40 days, at the time of the ascension. So if he was a circumsized Jew, he went to paradise (Purgatory or Abraham’s Bosom), then he could then proceed to heaven when Jesus freed those OT saints.

Well, that certainly is part of His great commission, but Jesus and the Apostles were baptizing long before that (John 3:22-26, 4:1-2). And, our Lord said and did nothing during His ministry that was not without eternal consequence.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I said “no, because we saw that Jesus ascended into Heaven after speaking to the apostles. But he rose after three days, so where was He during those three days?”

This is not entirely easy to grasp in Catholic theology, as far as I can tell (someone feel free to correct me with Magisterial resources if I should err). There have been theological suppositions that Jesus descended to something if I may say was hell-like, if not a permanent hell of futility, because it was death. For example, I dug this up from a memory from my Eschatology class:* "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? … This anguish, in fact, contains no object to which we could put a name. It is the terrible expression of our ultimate solitude. Who among us has not felt the awful sensation of this state of abandonment? Who would not hear the blessed, comfortimg miracle worked in these circumstances by an affectionate word? But wherever there is such solitude as to be inaccessible to the transforming word of love, then that is the place we call hell. … All the world’s anguish is, in the final analysis, the anguish generated by this solitude. This is why in the Old Testament, the word indicating the kingdom of the dead was identical to the word for hell: sheol. Death, in fact, is absolute solitude. But this solitude which can no longer be illumined by love, which is so profound that love can no longer reach it, is hell.

“Descended into hell” - this confession of Holy Saturday means that Christ passed through the door of solitude, that he descended to the deep, too deep for our condition of solitude to fathom, so deep it never even comes near. This means, however, that also in that extreme night which no word penetrates, when we will all be like children, banished, weeping, there will be a voice that calls to us, a hand that takes our hand and leads us on. Man’s insuperable solitude was overcome from the moment* He* entered it. Hell was beaten from the moment love entered the region of death and the no man’s land of solitude was inhabited by him. …the moment there is the presence of love in death’s sphere, then life penetrates death: life is not taken from your faithful, O Lord, but transformed, the Church prays in its funeral liturgy.

In the final analysis, no one can measure the portent of the words: “descended into hell”. … And in the throes of our protest against the darkness of the death of God we begin to be grateful for the light that comes to us from this same darkness." (Cardinal Ratzinger, Prefect of the CDF, Second Meditation on Holy Saturday, 1969)*I found more from him, as Pope Benedict XVI from this blog (which also references Von Balthasar’s theological contributions on the matter), emphasizing Christ’s victory over death on Holy Saturday:*His Cross opens wide the gates of death, the stern doors. They are barred no longer. His Cross, his radical love, is the key that opens them. The love of the One who, though God, became man in order to die – this love has the power to open those doors. This love is stronger than death. The Easter icons of the Oriental Church show how Christ enters the world of the dead. He is clothed with light, for God is light. (Benedict XVI, 2007 Easter Vigil Homily)*So it’s kind of like that the abode of the dead was hell, absent of love, but “unlockable” only by He who is love. In essence the “place” we call hell is indeed eternal, but in order to escape its locks, we must be attached to he who has the key. In encountering this futile “place of death,” which is deprived of love, he defeats death.

It’s really a mystery. Especially if we try to impose some kind of logical mechanics to the event - like what (spoiler alert), did Jesus dive into hell like Neo dives into the Agent at the end of The Matrix? Rather, as Pope Benedict also said in that Easter Vigil Homily:In the Creed we say about Christ’s journey that he “descended into hell.” What happened then? Since we have no knowledge of the world of death, we can only imagine his triumph over death with the help of images which remain very inadequate.

 

[Actaeon]

The thief on the cross was probably the first instance of baptism of desire. Baptism removes original sin and personal sin.

Another possible explanation that I’ve heard is that the “thief” obviously knew Jesus well enough to recognize Him by mere appearance alone. It is entirely possible that the “thief” was already a baptised follower of Christ before this encounter.

I put the word thief in quotes because it is also possible to doubt that the man committed a mortal sin in getting crucified. After all, the romans were keen to crucify just about any upstart… it’s possible he venially stole something (say a loaf of bread to feed his starving children) from the wrong person and landed next to Jesus for what would be a venial sin at best.

So between the idea of a baptism by desire and the possibility that the thief was already a christian anyway, there’s no reason the “good thief” passage indicates that purgatory does not exist.