A Fundamental Response to a Fundamentalist Question

[TOME]

Now that Christmas is almost here I am sure that most of us, who are Catholic, have entered into a discussion with a fellow Christian who is a “Fundamentalist” Protestant and inevitably our fellow Christian will ask the question, “Where is that in the Bible?”

The other day I was in a discussion with a friend about Mary and the “Immaculate Conception” (hardly surprising given the season we are now in - liturgical and shopping) and of coarse she asked me where was the Immaculate Conception stated in the Bible.
My response was if she truly knew her scripture she would know it was in the Chapter that immediately proceeds the list of canonical books of the New Testament.

It was a simple answer, some would say simplistic, but it introduced my point that Revelation does come from Scripture but not Scripture alone. I am sure most of us have all used this response at one time or another in a similar conversation but why isn’t this the standard reply for we Catholics? It, atleast in my experience, opens up a whole new avenue for diologue (actually it also tends to end the conversation rather quickly).

 

[epostle]

There are no fast answers for people who don’t want them. Denial of the Immaculate Conception leads to all kinds of Christological heresies, such as God and sin coexisting, or that Mary just gave birth to human half of Jesus, or Jesus was not a Person, (hence Mary is not the mother of God) or Jesus was not divine until later, blah, blah, blah…

I think the primary defense for the Immaculate Conception is found in her title, “Ark of the New Covenant”. The typology or forshadowing in the Old Testament are too numerous to ignore.
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

 

[tabcom]

Now that Christmas is almost here , , , “Where is that in the Bible?”

It’s not. Neither is the pagan festival of the Saturnalia – from which the Christ Mass evolved from.

However, the Christmas tree is in the Bible:

Jeremiah Chapter 10:3-10
1 Kings Chapter 16:30-33
1 Maccabees 1:47

Those references can be added to the long list of ‘Thou Shall Not’.

 

[Convert_Luke]

The easiest way to explain that Mary is the Immaculate Conception is to point to the Angel Gabriel referring to her as full of grace at the annunciation. Full of grace means there is no room for sin, even original sin. Therefore Mary is free from all sin or immaculate. The phrase full of grace is only used one other time and it is used to describe Jesus in chapter one of The Gospel of John.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

I am sure most of us have all used this response at one time or another in a similar conversation but why isn’t this the standard reply for we Catholics? It, atleast in my experience, opens up a whole new avenue for diologue (actually it also tends to end the conversation rather quickly).

1 Peter 3:15 “… yet do it with gentlenes and reverence” I’ve had times where I get more into the debate than into the convicining.
I don’t think this response is screeming with charity. Who cares if you make your point and refute everything they have to thro at you. If they are belittled or made to look stupid by you’re methods.
I’ve been praying about this. I’m bad for doing this.

 

[juliamajor]

It’s not. Neither is the pagan festival of the Saturnalia – from which the Christ Mass evolved from.

However, the Christmas tree is in the Bible:

Jeremiah Chapter 10:3-10
1 Kings Chapter 16:30-33
1 Maccabees 1:47

Those references can be added to the long list of ‘Thou Shall Not’.

Those scripture quotes have to nothing at all in common with a Christmas tree - no matter how you contort scripture to fit it. Those folks are writing about the making of and devotion to idols-Asherah. I 've never made my tree into an Asherah or has any other Christian who celebrates Christmas that I know. God takes pleasure in our pleasure at his creations.Matter is not what is evil but that which we do with it.

 

[inthecloud]

Who is tabcom, Jack Chick?

 

[adam_in_ohio]

I 've never made my tree into an Asherah or has any other Christian who celebrates Christmas that I know.

I’ve made my tree into fire wood!!!

 

[Petergee]

1 Peter 3:15 “… yet do it with gentlenes and reverence” I’ve had times where I get more into the debate than into the convicining.
I don’t think this response is screeming with charity. Who cares if you make your point and refute everything they have to thro at you. If they are belittled or made to look stupid by you’re methods.
I’ve been praying about this. I’m bad for doing this.

How does this response lack charity or belittle anyone? It merely succinctly points out the fact that for 2000 years Catholics have not believed in Sola Scriptura (indeed no-one belived in it until the 16th century), and so for Catholics, the question "Where is* that *in the Bible?" lacks the overwhelming significance that it has for protestants.
The protestant who asks this question of a Catholic is either asking a stupid question (in which case he has already **made himself **look stupid), or he is deliberately and uncharitably baiting the Catholic, in which case the response is a mild, truthful and charitable one.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

How does this response lack charity or belittle anyone? It merely succinctly points out the fact that for 2000 years Catholics have not believed in Sola Scriptura (indeed no-one belived in it until the 16th century), and so for Catholics, the question "Where is* that ***in the Bible?" lacks the overwhelming significance that it has for protestants.
The protestant who asks this question of a Catholic is either asking a stupid question (in which case he has already **made himself **look stupid), or he is deliberately and uncharitably baiting the Catholic, in which case the response is a mild, truthful and charitable one.

Yes, I agree to what it points out. I didn’t say it was incorrect.
It lacks charity because the response is driving home the point in a sarcastic manner. When debating with anyone about the Catholic faith. We have to ask ourselves why are we debating? To show that it’s obvious the Catholic Church is the true Church God founded? or to serve God by trying to bring others into the fullness of the faith.
Even if someone asks a “stupid” question, that does not give us the right to make shure they know it was a “stupid” question.
It’s more importand if they are deliberatelt being uncharitable that we are deliberatelt in our responce being one Christ would be proud of.

 

[Petergee]

Yes I do see your point Adam, but there are times when even sarcasm has its place, either to jolt someone into a realisation of the truth, or to show a baiting troll that his BS isn’t going to work.

 

[po18guy]

It’s not. Neither is the pagan festival of the Saturnalia – from which the Christ Mass evolved from.

However, the Christmas tree is in the Bible:

Jeremiah Chapter 10:3-10
1 Kings Chapter 16:30-33
1 Maccabees 1:47

Those references can be added to the long list of ‘Thou Shall Not’.

Tabcom, how come the only incorrect interpretation of scripture is the Catholic? Careful with your answer, because that might make your bible worthless by your own condemnation.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

Yes I do see your point Adam, but there are times when even sarcasm has its place, either to jolt someone into a realisation of the truth, or to show a baiting troll that his BS isn’t going to work.

I’ve been there. In fact I do it too often. But later, in thinking back my being smug is not going to jolt someone into even thinking about conversion. There too busy thinking about what a jerk I was being.

 

[po18guy]

It lacks charity because the response is driving home the point in a sarcastic manner.

Like this one?

Matthew 21:27 So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.” Then he said, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.

Mark 11:33 So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.” Jesus said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”

Luke 20:8 Jesus said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”

True, sarcasm isn’t always the best reply, but just look at its inspiration! It lead to the truth when Christ used it with the Pharisees, likely because it was them that heard it, but it was the others surrounding them who actually listened to it. Big difference. Now, shake hands, you two.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

Like this one?

Matthew 21:27 So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.” Then he said, "Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.

Mark 11:33 So they answered Jesus, “We don’t know.” Jesus said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”

Luke 20:8 Jesus said, “Neither will I tell you by what authority I am doing these things.”

True, sarcasm isn’t always the best reply, but just look at its inspiration! It lead to the truth when Christ used it with the Pharisees, likely because it was them that heard it, but it was the others surrounding them who actually listened to it. Big difference. Now, shake hands, you two.

I meen somthing more like this:
Oh you’re right! Since Jesus did it, we too have the forthknolage to know when it will help the blind see.

 

[TheMese]

The other day you were in a discussion with a friend about Mary and the “Immaculate Conception” and were asked “Where is that in the Bible?”

Can I ask “Where is that in the Writings of the Church Fathers?” We’ve got about 80 thick volumes in our theological library. Any references.

 

[Fidelis]

It’s not. Neither is the pagan festival of the Saturnalia – from which the Christ Mass evolved from.

However, the Christmas tree is in the Bible:

Jeremiah Chapter 10:3-10
1 Kings Chapter 16:30-33
1 Maccabees 1:47

Those references can be added to the long list of ‘Thou Shall Not’.

'Tis the season, I guess…

Tree worship?

**Q: Some Fundamentalists argue that it is wrong to have Christmas trees because they are of pagan origin and are condemned in the book of Jeremiah. How should we respond to that? **

A: The passage they are referring to is Jeremiah 10:2-4: “Thus saith the Lord, ‘Learn not the way of the heathen . . . For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not’” (King James Version).

We should respond by asking them to read the rest of the passage instead of stopping at verse 4. When one does this, it is clear that prophet is discussing idols, not Christmas trees.

God says, “They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.’ Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou art great, and thy name is great in might” (Jer. 10:5-6).

If this passage were talking about Christmas trees rather than idols, why would God need to point out to us that they cannot speak? Why would he point out that they have to be carried because they cannot walk around on their own? Why would God tell us not to be afraid of them, that they cannot do us evil-or good? Finally, why would Jeremiah say that there is no Christmas tree like God?

The passage makes sense only when one realizes the prophet is talking about idols-false gods. Idols cannot speak or walk. We should not be afraid of them, because they cannot do us evil; neither should we hope in them, because they cannot do us good. When one surveys the idols, one discovers that there is no god like Yahweh -the God who made the trees from which the idols were carved.

Fundamentalists tend to quote Jeremiah 10 from the King James Version. More recent versions make it even more obvious that Christmas trees are not being discussed. Here is how the New International Version (a contemporary Protestant translation) renders the passage:

“This is what the Lord says: ‘Do not learn the ways of the nations . . . For the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter. Like a scarecrow in a melon patch, their idols cannot speak; they must be carried because they cannot walk. Do not fear them; they can do no harm nor can they do any good.’ No one is like you, O Lord; you are great, and your name is mighty in power” (Jer. 10:2-6).

If a Fundamentalist still insists on taking the passage as a reference to Christmas trees, you can point out that it is perfectly harmless to have one in your house since God himself says, “Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil” (Jer 10:5).

By the way, if honoring the Lord with greenery were offensive to God, the disciples would not have borne palm branches to celebrate Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem (John 12:13).
catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9612qq.asp

For more seasonal apologetics:

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9312fea1.asp

 

[tabcom]

A: The passage they are referring to is Jeremiah 10:2-4: “Thus saith the Lord, ‘Learn not the way of the heathen . . . For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not’” (King James Version).

We should respond by asking them to read the rest of the passage instead of stopping at verse 4. When one does this, it is clear that prophet is discussing idols, not Christmas trees.

This play out of your ‘Defend the tree play book’ may be effective against a 10 year old.

Of course Jeremiah (and Elijah, and 1 Maccabees 1:47) are discussing idols. It is not the physical christmas tree that is being worshiped. It is what it metaphorically represents.

One more time . . .

What is idolatry???

Luke 12:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Covetousness = Idolatry

covetousness- greek: pleonektes- to want more; greediness

Idolatry = wanting more

Every man is covetous by nature until God deals with him and causes him to repent (turn from self to God). The word devil (daimon) means to distribute fortunes. A covetous man who “wants more” has a devil. Covetousness is the idolatrous worship of self. It is an idolatry as evil as falling down before Baal, the christmas tree, the golden calf, or anyone of the ancient pagan deities of Babylon.

Paul said, “having food and raiment, let us be there with content” (I Tim. 6:8). He also said, “I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” (Phil. 4:11).

Men, myself included, are involved in idolatry when they refuse to be content with what they have. Their hearts cry out, “I want more.”

John gives such warnings in 1 John 2:15-17.

15
Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16
For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and a pretentious life, is not from the Father but is from the world.
17
Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.

That sums up the material world. Lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, and the pride of life. Those are the three things that caused Eve to fall when she was sudduced by the serpent and accepted her gift from the first christmas tree.

 

[po18guy]

Those scripture quotes have to nothing at all in common with a Christmas tree - no matter how you contort scripture to fit it. Those folks are writing about the making of and devotion to idols-Asherah. I 've never made my tree into an Asherah or has any other Christian who celebrates Christmas that I know. God takes pleasure in our pleasure at his creations.Matter is not what is evil but that which we do with it.

Amen! How about Genesis 1:31, where God looked upon the earth that He created (matter), and proclaimed it “very good”. Likewise, Jesus said in Matthew 15:17-18 "Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’

You are absolutely right. It is what we do with it, how we view it. I can’t wait for the reply, which will be cut and paste from something to do with Baal worshippers, or other irrelevant passages.

 

[Fidelis]

This play out of your ‘Defend the tree play book’ may be effective against a 10 year old. Of course Jeremiah (and Elijah, and 1 Maccabees 1:47) are discussing idols. It is not the physical christmas tree that is being worshiped. It is what it metaphorically represents.Next time you see someone purposefully worshipping their Christmas tree with the methaphorical intent you attribute to it, you let me know.

Even a 10 year old can tell the difference between having the tree as a seasonal decoration, and worshipping it. In addition, most 10 year olds don’t presume to read the mind or intentions of others.