A Fundamental Response to a Fundamentalist Question

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Genesis 1:31, where God looked upon the earth that He created (matter), and proclaimed it “very good”.
What exactly are you trying to say? That everything is permissiable? I’m not following your logic.

With respects to Genesis. The first ‘thou shall not’ was with regards to the tree.

Genesis 2:16 17 – of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it.

And what was the ‘real power’ that was promised to Eve?

Genesis 3:5
“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

After spending the past six years not doing Christmas, I believe the tree metaphorically represents the tree in the garden.

When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing that they received what they wished for (lust of the flesh), it makes them feel good (pride of life).
 
It’s not. Neither is the pagan festival of the Saturnalia – from which the Christ Mass evolved from.

However, the Christmas tree is in the Bible:

Jeremiah Chapter 10:3-10
1 Kings Chapter 16:30-33
1 Maccabees 1:47

Those references can be added to the long list of ‘Thou Shall Not’.
Christmas is certainly in the Bible, since several chapters of the New Testament are dedicated to the Holy Nativity. The institution of a universal feast of the Church coincided with the eruption and defeat of several heresies concerning the Person of Jesus Christ (outlined by an earlier poster up-thread). You know perfectly well that the festival of sol invictus was co-opted by the Church as a way of emphasizing that the TRUE Light of the World had triumphed over darkness.

Frankly, objecting to the placement of the celebration of the Nativity near the winter solstice is an objection more against the Gospel of John than to the Catholic Church.

As for the metaphorical significance of a Christmas tree, for Christians it represents eternal life and light shining in darkness. Guess who THAT is?
 
When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing that they received what they wished for (lust of the flesh), it makes them feel good (pride of life).
Interesting point, but aren’t you condemning the gift giving, rather than the tree itself? I think we’d all agree that the materialistic excesses of the season go too far. The pope recently gave that very message to all of us.

If you want to avoid the materiality of the season by eliminating your tree, then bully for you. It in no way represents that for me. And for others, it may serve as a connection to family and friends. Picture a widower musing on the ornaments his children made, the decorations he and his wife picked out (or the one’s they disagreed over!). No greed or lust or covetousness there. Do you still condemn the tree?
 
Christmas is certainly in the Bible, since several chapters of the New Testament are dedicated to the Holy Nativity.
Saying there are ‘several chapters’ is a bit over the top, wouldn’t you say? I could cite the few verses that make reference to the magi (actual amount present is unknown) and the manger, but there really isn’t any need to do so. What is noteworthy is that there is no reference whatsoever as to when the birth took place.

I keep asking, and I’m still waiting for an answer as to why did it take over 300 years for the church in Rome to determine not only when Jesus’ birthdays was (by the way, it wasn’t even in December), and why did it need be linked with the pagan festivals of the Saturnalia?
. . . objecting to the placement of the celebration of the Nativity near the winter solstice is an objection more against the Gospel of John
please explain.
 
Saying there are ‘several chapters’ is a bit over the top, wouldn’t you say? I could cite the few verses that make reference to the magi (actual amount present is unknown) and the manger, but there really isn’t any need to do so. What is noteworthy is that there is no reference whatsoever as to when the birth took place.

I keep asking, and I’m still waiting for an answer as to why did it take over 300 years for the church in Rome to determine not only when Jesus’ birthdays was (by the way, it wasn’t even in December), and why did it need be linked with the pagan festivals of the Saturnalia? please explain.
The celebration of Christmas does not celebrate Christs birth-DAY: it celebrates his BIRTH as a historic fact and a theological construct. It took 300 + years to declare a universal feast (although most churches celebrated the Nativity, as early liturgies attest) because of the riot of heresies concerning the humanity/divinity of Jesus in the 2nd and 3rd centuries

None of this is hard to find. Early writers (Chrysostom, e.g.) mention the establishment of the Christian feast at the winter solstice as fitting since Christ is the true Light of the World.

John most eloqently portrays Christ as the Light of the World, so when I say that carping about the celebration of the Nativity of Our Lord, who is “the Light of the World” is to carp at the Gospel of John, that is what I am referring to.
 
What exactly are you trying to say? That everything is permissiable? I’m not following your logic.
God made all matter, He uses matter in all of His works. It is the inordinate attachment to matter that is sinful. Isn’t that your point?
With respects to Genesis. The first ‘thou shall not’ was with regards to the tree.
It was the fruit of the tree in the center of the garden that they were commanded not to eat.
Genesis 2:16 17 – of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it.
Exactly.
And what was the ‘real power’ that was promised to Eve?
Since the promise came from a liar and the father of lies, there was no power, only punishment.
Genesis 3:5 “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
This is, of course the lie that caused the fall. It is disrespect of God, and disobedience of His command. It is obedience only to the evil one, who is the self.
After spending the past six years not doing Christmas, I believe the tree metaphorically represents the tree in the garden.
I completely understand your turning from the warped celebration that the world has made of Christmas, but it is still a Holy day, and the Magi set out to pay homage to God in Christ. We must give thanks and praise to God, and that was the genesis of the Christmas (Christ mass) observance. When it is kept within the parameters of the original intent, it is pure and holy.
Matthew 2:11 “On coming to the house, they saw the child with his mother Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasures and presented him with gifts of gold and of incense and of myrrh”. These gifts were received, not taken.
When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing that they received what they wished for (lust of the flesh), it makes them feel good (pride of life).
You are reading a lot into this. Look at what you said: “lust”, “lust”, “pride”. That has nothing to do with the tree, or even with the gifts, but the heart. Matthew 15:18-19 “But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander”.

Thus, a gift is to be received, not taken. Adam and Eve took from the tree in the garden - they did not receive it. It is in the taking that evil exists. If you receive a gift in Christ’s name, there is no evil. But to take, even in His name, comes from evil in the heart. We are de-emphasizing the material gifts, but those which remain are received, not taken.

Witness how God always works: God placed a tree in the garden, and physically eating that fruit brought death. It was not simply believing that the fruit had the knowledge, or desiring to eat the fruit that brought death, it was the physical eating of that fruit. Once they consumed the fruit, Adam and Eve had death within them. No one argues this.

God then used another tree at the resurrection, and eating the fruit of it restored our relationship with Him and brought eternal life. But you must physically eat of that fruit-you can’t just believe in the fruit, or desire the fruit. You must eat it. God in Christ commanded us to eat the fruit of the resurrection: John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you”. How come so many argue this???

Now, I cannot expect that you believe in this, at least for now, but can you see why so many of the world’s Christians do eat His Body and drink His Blood?

May Christ’s peace always be with you.
 
It took 300 + years to declare a universal feast . . . because of the riot of heresies concerning the humanity/divinity of Jesus in the 2nd and 3rd centuries
You are the first person in the ten years that I have discussed the pagan origins of Christmas to cite this as a reason to have a Mass for Christ. I’ll add it to what I thought was a completed list.

The most popular reason I get when I ask people what Christmas means to them is ‘family’. And that includes a long list of catholics.

That’s not good enough for Christ . . .

Mt 19:29 -
"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

Mr 10:29 -
Jesus said, "Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake,

Lu 14:26 -
"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

Read those verses at your Christmas feast and watch the dining room empy.

My point is, although there may have existed a need to declare Jesus was a living man 3oo years after His birth by creating a feast for his natural birth, no one argues this point today. IMHO, 99% of people either don’t care about baby Jesus, or simply give lip service to their confession of faith.
 
You are the first person in the ten years that I have discussed the pagan origins of Christmas to cite this as a reason to have a Mass for Christ.
Well, I hope my response makes sense because it is historically accurate and theologically significant.
I’ll add it to what I thought was a completed list.
The most popular reason I get when I ask people what Christmas means to them is ‘family’. And that includes a long list of catholics.
Well, the Christmas story involved “family” – the Holy Family, Mary, Joseph, Jesus . . .

That’s not good enough for Christ . . .Putting Jesus into a family was definitely part of the divine plan. God the Father could have accomplished the Redemption WITHOUT using a human family, but chose to do it this way. We think that’s pretty important. Families are the principal unit entrusted with teaching and passing on the faith. Seems “good enough.”
Mt 19:29 -
"And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life.

Mr 10:29 - Lu 14:26 -

Read those verses at your Christmas feast and watch the dining room empy. You know these verses do not diminish the importance of family or the need for families. If “family” were not important, God would not have revealed Himself to us as “Father.”
My point is, although there may have existed a need to declare Jesus was a living man 3oo years after His birth by creating a feast for his natural birth, no one argues this point today. IMHO, 99% of people either don’t care about baby Jesus, or simply give lip service to their confession of faith.
Perhaps many do not understand the historical and theological significance of the Feast – but in Catholic churches, a great deal is made of the theology – to the extent that concepts like the hypostatic union can be rendered intelligible to general audiences. We focus on the devotional significance of the event more than on the arcane theology.

We ask, “what does Christ’s birth mean for our lives?” Generally, in those homilies that ALWAYS include the timeworn phrase, “Let your heart be the stable where Christ is born” (after St. Jerome), mention is made of the Cross. After all, no crib, no Cross. Someone will usually mention that Jesus’ first bed was a feeding trough. That resonates big with us Catholics, who consider Jesus to be the Bread of Life.
 
After spending the past six years not doing Christmas, I believe the tree metaphorically represents the tree in the garden.

When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing that they received what they wished for (lust of the flesh), it makes them feel good (pride of life).
Are you kidding me?!? :banghead:
 
This play out of your ‘Defend the tree play book’ may be effective against a 10 year old.

Of course Jeremiah (and Elijah, and 1 Maccabees 1:47) are discussing idols. It is not the physical christmas tree that is being worshiped. It is what it metaphorically represents.

One more time . . .

What is idolatry???

Luke 12:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Covetousness = Idolatry

covetousness- greek: pleonektes- to want more; greediness

Idolatry = wanting more

Every man is covetous by nature until God deals with him and causes him to repent (turn from self to God). The word devil (daimon) means to distribute fortunes. A covetous man who “wants more” has a devil. Covetousness is the idolatrous worship of self. It is an idolatry as evil as falling down before Baal, the christmas tree, the golden calf, or anyone of the ancient pagan deities of Babylon.

Paul said, “having food and raiment, let us be there with content” (I Tim. 6:8). He also said, “I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” (Phil. 4:11).

Men, myself included, are involved in idolatry when they refuse to be content with what they have. Their hearts cry out, “I want more.”

John gives such warnings in 1 John 2:15-17.

15
Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16
For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and a pretentious life, is not from the Father but is from the world.
17
Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.

That sums up the material world. Lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, and the pride of life. Those are the three things that caused Eve to fall when she was sudduced by the serpent and accepted her gift from the first christmas tree.
    1. Why would Jeremiah be talking about Christmas or the Saturnalia ? What possible relevance could either of them have to his work ?
    1. Genesis 3 has nothing whatever to do with Christmas - or with 1 John, which is not talking about it, or Christmas, or trees of any kind.
    1. A house can be an object of sinful desire - does coveting a house make the Jewish temples, which were houses of God, evil ? If not, why do Christmas trees become evil ?
    1. St. Paul calls love of money a root of all evil - so why not see what the Bible calls evil, instead of condemning what neither the Bible nor Christ condemn ?
    1. Why suppose that the mere presence of CTs must inevitably cause the bad passions described ?
    1. Presence of CT =//= worship of CT - any more than the presence of a car = a traffic disaster.
    1. Things far better than CTs can be - & have been - misused; shall we burn the Bible, in case someone makes an idol of it ? Why not encorage universal suicide ? Sin is the worst of evils, but no corpse ever sins. So let’s avoid sin by killing ourselves. 🙂
 
I’ve been there. In fact I do it too often. But later, in thinking back my being smug is not going to jolt someone into even thinking about conversion. There too busy thinking about what a jerk I was being.
All right, how’s this for a non-sarcastic response:
“It’s not explicitly stated in the Bible but there is overwhelming implicit evidence for it” (as per epostle’s and ConvertLuke’s responses). “Now may I ask you about one of your beliefs? You believe that there are 66 divinely-inspired books which all Christians must recognise as constituting the Bible, the basis of Christian belief, yes? Where is thatstated, even implicitly, in the Bible?”
 
Putting Jesus into a family was definitely part of the divine plan. . . . Families are the principal unit entrusted with teaching and passing on the faith. . . . If “family” were not important, God would not have revealed Himself to us as “Father.”
Let’s make a distinction here. God’s Family does not include every person that ever lived. God’s Family is conditional. The catholics I was raised around with simply don’t care. Their definition of family is what they can see and touch and what is living here and now-- that is pagan. When christmas time comes, they want to give out free forgiveness for the sake of everyone having a good time.
Perhaps many do not understand the historical and theological significance of the Feast – but in Catholic churches, a great deal is made of the theology – to the extent that concepts like the hypostatic union can be rendered intelligible to general audiences. We focus on the devotional significance of the event more than on the arcane theology.
At first, when I read your post, I too thought it arcane. After thinking about it over night, I no longer think so. I believe, people do understand the historical significance of Jesus being a real person. What is significant is that they don’t care because they do not believe. For me, that is comforting to know.
 
  1. Why would Jeremiah be talking about Christmas or the Saturnalia ? What possible relevance could either of them have to his work ?
Please bear with me as I work through your list.

Jeremiah prophesied that because of Northern Israel’s apostasy that God was going to bring judgment against it and led Northern Israel into captivity. Bringing the tree (Baal worship) into the Temple is an abomination to God. It is mixing Truth with a lie. There are only two doctrines in the Bible. Jesus preached the doctrine of death to self (Luke 9:23). The devil preaches the doctrine of fulfill self (1 John 2:15-17). When you mix a clean thing with an unclean thing – you get dirty.

I did a thread on the 3 beast of Rev. 13 last summer that is related to this.
*
What possible relevance could either of them have to his work?*

The Apostasy is here! Judgments coming. It is Jesus’ return, taking vengeance against His enemies, that should be the ‘reason for the season’.
 
  1. Genesis 3 has nothing whatever to do with Christmas - or with 1 John, which is not talking about it, or Christmas, or trees of any kind.
To clarify, your statement should read, ‘Genesis 3 has nothing whatever to do with (the) Christmas (tree)’. With respects to your statement, would you mind explaining yourself in more detail. I’m afraid your concise response lacks persuasion.
 
  1. . . . Why do Christmas trees become evil ?
It is not the literal tree that is evil. It is idolatry of the tree that is evil.

The decorating of the tree is nothing more than marketing that leads ones eyes to the stump, scanning for the presents with his or hers name on it.

Regardless of the mythological similes that Roman Catholics like to peg the Christmas tree to Christ, one metaphor that transcends time and space is the linkage of the tree to wanting more.
 
Someone will usually mention that Jesus’ first bed was a feeding trough. That resonates big with us Catholics, who consider Jesus to be the Bread of Life.
I was baptized at the Easter Vigil in a livestock watering tank. What a great, humbling message the priest taught us, from the very start.

Christ’s peace.
 
Please bear with me as I work through your list.

Jeremiah prophesied that because of Northern Israel’s apostasy that God was going to bring judgment against it and led Northern Israel into captivity. Bringing the tree (Baal worship) into the Temple is an abomination to God. It is mixing Truth with a lie. There are only two doctrines in the Bible. Jesus preached the doctrine of death to self (Luke 9:23). The devil preaches the doctrine of fulfill self (1 John 2:15-17). When you mix a clean thing with an unclean thing – you get dirty.

I did a thread on the 3 beast of Rev. 13 last summer that is related to this.
*
What possible relevance could either of them have to his work?*

The Apostasy is here! Judgments coming. It is Jesus’ return, taking vengeance against His enemies, that should be the ‘reason for the season’.
My friend, do you believe in the power of Christ’s cross? It is nothing more than a tree, the universal symbol for death in the known world at that time. To gaze upon a cross was to view satan himself, for the horrible deaths that occurred there, even to the guilty, were an abomination to the Lord. Why else would He choose that exact symbol to absolutely reverse the evil path of man, and offer redemption using that hated object, the cross? But, not an empty cross. Only the cross which bore Christ’s sacrificed Body on it had any redemptive power.

If a Christmas tree, in our practice, brings us closer to God in Christ, how is that different from your car bringing you closer to Christ at services in your church? If sin attaches to inanimate objects, to representations, to images, why is the bible not sinful? Perhaps it is, since Christ had nothing to do with scripture, other than to quote it, outside of the Temple. To carry a bible, to rely on the comfort of it’s words - is that not idolatry? For God alone shall be our comfort.

I think a few Evangelicals have almost allowed a tiny bit of superstition to creep in. Since we are in a Divinely created world of matter, constantly surrounded by it, is it not good? Our inordinate attachment to objects will condemn us. It is what is in our hearts regarding our love of God which is and will be judged.

Christ’s peace.
 
It is not the literal tree that is evil. It is idolatry of the tree that is evil.Of course, if it becomes idolatry!
Regardless of the mythological similes that Roman Catholics like to peg the Christmas tree to Christ, one metaphor that transcends time and space is the linkage of the tree to wanting more.
 
The easiest way to explain that Mary is the Immaculate Conception is to point to the Angel Gabriel referring to her as full of grace at the annunciation. Full of grace means there is no room for sin, even original sin. Therefore Mary is free from all sin or immaculate. The phrase full of grace is only used one other time and it is used to describe Jesus in chapter one of The Gospel of John.
You may want to look up in greek lexicon what these words mean. They don’t mean she was without sin…
 
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