A Fundamental Response to a Fundamentalist Question

[tabcom]

You may want to look up in greek lexicon what (full of grace) mean. They don’t mean (Mary) was without sin…

For the record . . . the term ‘full of grace’ is used only one time in the Bible. And it is not referencing Mary.

John 1:14 -
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

That’s Jesus folks!

the greek lexicon for grace is the word charis. It means unfavorite mention.

The reference to Mary is in

Luke 1:30 The angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God.

Also, Mary was a sinner. Only sinners need call on the Lord as Savior:

Luke 1:46 And Mary said: "My soul exalts the Lord, 47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

 

[Petergee]

the term ‘full of grace’ is used only one time in the Bible. And it is not referencing Mary…
The reference to Mary is in Luke 1:30

Back up a little to verse 28. Eureka! you’ve found it.

 

[Petergee]

The catholics I was raised around with simply don’t care. Their definition of family is what they can see and touch and what is living here and now-- that is pagan.

What unusual Catholics. Usually we Catholics get pilloried for including “dead people” and “imaginary people” in our family.

When christmas time comes, they want to give out free forgiveness for the sake of everyone having a good time.

Just as Christ said. I’m so sorry you have a problem with His offer of free forgiveness to anyone who asks. Well at least you’re a change from the usual Catholicophobics who accuse us of “weighing down people with guilt”.

I believe, people do understand the historical significance of Jesus being a real person. What is significant is that they don’t care because they do not believe. For me, that is comforting to know.

How can a Christian find “comfort” in the fact that some people do not believe in Christ? Truly weird.

 

[adam_in_ohio]

All right, how’s this for a non-sarcastic response:
“It’s not explicitly stated in the Bible but there is overwhelming implicit evidence for it” (as per epostle’s and ConvertLuke’s responses). “Now may I ask you about one of your beliefs? You believe that there are 66 divinely-inspired books which all Christians must recognise as constituting the Bible, the basis of Christian belief, yes? Where is thatstated, even implicitly, in the Bible?”

Thats fine! I’m not trying to be a pain on the charity. I was just putting my 2 cents in on the delivery.
I get too into debates many times. Trust me, this is a perfict example of the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[tabcom]

I’m so sorry you have a problem with His offer of free forgiveness to anyone who asks

I’m afraid I didn’t make myself clear with respects to, ‘When christmas time comes, they want to give out free forgiveness for the sake of everyone having a good time.’

A repentant heart leads one to ask for forgiveness. The word ‘repent’ in the original greek (metanoeo) means to turn and think differently. The word ‘ask’ in the orginal greek (aiteo) is a conditional word. The point I was making is that the catholics I was raised around were satisfied with another year going by and had no regret about the sin that they where knee-deep in. Christians aren’t suppose to be hanging around with, at worst, reprobates, at best, rebellious believers.

How can a Christian find “comfort” in the fact that some people do not believe in Christ? Truly weird.

What if I said, 'How can a Christian find “comfort” in the fact that most people do not believe in Christ? For those Christians that believe Scripture alone is the sole rule of faith., they know what I mean.

the term ‘full of grace’ is used only one time in the Bible. And it is not referencing Mary. The reference to Mary is in Luke 1:30

Back up a little to verse 28. , , , you’ve found it.

the term ‘full of grace’ is not in the original greek text, nor my NAB (Catholic) Bible.

Luke 1:28
And coming to her, he said, “Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

 

[tabcom]

1. (why are you) condemning what neither the Bible nor Christ condemn ?

The Bible condemns idolatry. It is my belief that the christmas tree is idolatry. Christ condemnation was against false teachers. He condemned the rituals and dogma.

 

[Petergee]

I’m afraid I didn’t make myself clear with respects to, ‘When christmas time comes, they want to give out free forgiveness for the sake of everyone having a good time.’

A repentant heart leads one to ask for forgiveness. The word ‘repent’ in the original greek (metanoeo) means to turn and think differently. The word ‘ask’ in the orginal greek (aiteo) is a conditional word. The point I was making is that the catholics I was raised around were satisfied with another year going by and had no regret about the sin that they where knee-deep in. Christians aren’t suppose to be hanging around with, at worst, reprobates, at best, rebellious believers.

Gee, you really should get together with the other Catholicophobes who accuse Catholics of being in a constant state of false guilt, which exactly cancels out your fanciful description of Catholics sinning away merrily without a thought of repentance.

What if I said, 'How can a Christian find “comfort” in the fact that most people do not believe in Christ? For those Christians that believe Scripture alone is the sole rule of faith., they know what I mean.

OK I get it, you’re “comforted” by your belief that you and the rest of your little denomination are the only ones with a ticket to Heaven and you’re gleefully anticipating everyone who disagrees with you going to eternal hellfire. You are one sick puppy.

And the NAB is not a “Catholic” Bible AFAIK.

 

[Petergee]

The Bible condemns idolatry. It is my belief that the christmas tree is idolatry.

If you ever happpen to meet someone who worships Xmas trees, you have my full support in condemning his idolatry.

Christ condemnation was against false teachers.

Yes that’s why He founded the Church to safeguard His truth.

He condemned the rituals and dogma.

Really? Strange how He spent so much of His time taking part in rituals and teaching dogma.

 

[mercygate]

OK I get it, you’re “comforted” by your belief that you and the rest of your little denomination are the only ones with a ticket to Heaven and you’re gleefully anticipating everyone who disagrees with you going to eternal hellfire. You are one sick puppy.

Peter, I think you’re being too hard on tabcom. I believe tabcom’s “comfort” came from this:

Perhaps many do not understand the historical and theological significance of the Feast – but in Catholic churches, a great deal is made of the theology – to the extent that concepts like the hypostatic union can be rendered intelligible to general audiences. We focus on the devotional significance of the event more than on the arcane theology.

tabcom:

At first, when I read your post, I too thought it arcane. After thinking about it over night, I no longer think so. I believe, people do understand the historical significance of Jesus being a real person. What is significant is that they don’t care because they do not believe. For me, that is comforting to know

.

I think tabcom’s “comfort” comes from the proclamation of the significance of the Incarnation as part of Catholic liturgies at Christmas.

 

[tabcom]

. . . the NAB is not a “Catholic” BiblePlease explain to me how this website, from which I source my bible citation, is not Catholic?

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

The USCCB is an assembly of the Catholic Church hierarchy who work together to unify, coordinate, promote, and carry on Catholic activities in the United States; to organize and conduct religious, charitable, and social welfare work at home and abroad; to aid in education; and to care for immigrants. The bishops themselves constitute the membership of the Conference and are served by a staff of over 350 lay people, priests, deacons, and religious.

 

[mercygate]

Let’s make a distinction here. God’s Family does not include every person that ever lived. God’s Family is conditional. The catholics I was raised around with simply don’t care. Their definition of family is what they can see and touch and what is living here and now-- that is pagan. When christmas time comes, they want to give out free forgiveness for the sake of everyone having a good time.

We seem to be talking past each other here. My point was that the natural human family is God’s invention,and like everything else He invented, it is good – good enough for Himself to become incarnate through a human family.

The fact that the widening circle of His covenants with mankind has brought a new definition of God’s family as those “who hear the word of God and keep it” in no way obviates or replaces the value of natural human families.

 

[mercygate]

The Bible condemns idolatry. It is my belief that the christmas tree is idolatry. Christ condemnation was against false teachers. He condemned the rituals and dogma.

Idolatry: The worship of idols or images ‘made with hands’; more generally, the paying or offering of divine honours to any created object. (Oxford English Dictionary)

Trees are not “made with hands.” Nor will you find anybody, except maybe a self-made neo-pagan poseur giving “divine honors” to them.

 

[tabcom]

mecrygate . . it kind of surprises me that you would cite a secular source for a definition of idolatry when a better one can be found in Scriptures.

One more time . . .

What is idolatry???

Luke 12:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.

Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Covetousness = Idolatry

covetousness- greek: pleonektes- to want more; greediness

Idolatry = wanting more

Every man is covetous by nature until God deals with him and causes him to repent (turn from self to God). The word devil (daimon) means to distribute fortunes. A covetous man who “wants more” has a devil. Covetousness is the idolatrous worship of self. It is an idolatry as evil as falling down before Baal, the christmas tree, the golden calf, or anyone of the ancient pagan deities of Babylon.

Paul said, “having food and raiment, let us be there with content” (I Tim. 6:8). He also said, “I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” (Phil. 4:11).

Men, myself included, are involved in idolatry when they refuse to be content with what they have. Their hearts cry out, “I want more.”

 

[po18guy]

If you ever happpen to meet someone who worships Xmas trees, you have my full support in condemning his idolatry. Yes that’s why He founded the Church to safeguard His truth. Really? Strange how He spent so much of His time taking part in rituals and teaching dogma.

Last Sunday I attended a talk given by Mr. Mark Shea, an author (By What Authority?, This is my Body and other books) and Catholic apologist. He converted from the Evangelical church when he researched the entire “sola scriptura” philosophy and found that it has no scriptural foundation. He explained that some Evangelicals believe what basically amounts to superstition, and shun all images, photos, and paintings as well as other physical objects as idols.

Now, idol worship is most certainly sinful, but are not the printed words on the pages of the bible merely “images” of the spoken word of God? Maybe we should only listen to CDs or audio tapes of the Word - except that we might find the narrator’s voice comforting and thus worship it as a spoken idol. This superstitious fear of material is apparently what we are seeing here in this thread.

Let’s keep God’s creation in perspective.

Christ’s peace.

 

[tabcom]

. . . .like everything else He invented, it is good . . . God declaring His creation good, was prior to Him creating Adam and Eve and putting them in a garden and telling them ‘thou shall not’. It is the devils doctrine to believe that we can be like God and declare everything good.

mercygate:

The fact that the widening circle of His covenants with mankind has brought a new definition of God’s family as those “who hear the word of God and keep it” in no way obviates or replaces the value of natural human families.

That doctrine is not what Jesus taught . . .

Mark 3:31
(Jesus’) mother and his brothers arrived. Standing outside they sent word to him and called him.
32
A crowd seated around him told him, “Your mother and your brothers 12 (and your sisters) are outside asking for you.”
33
But he said to them in reply, “Who are my mother and (my) brothers?”
34
And looking around at those seated in the circle he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers.
35
(For) whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother.”

 

[po18guy]

Please explain to me how this website, from which I source my bible citation, is not Catholic?

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.

We sometimes fight even the USCCB on various issues: such as the glowing review of that detestable movie “The Golden Compass”. After being brought to light, the review has been pulled. As I understand it, The RSV-CE is the official bible of the Catholic Church. I prefer it, since accuracy was a higher goal than ecumenism. Make no mistake, the Catholic church constantly fights to maintain unity. I pray daily for the US Bishops - that they lead with humility, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and obedience. Mostly obedience.

Christ’s peace.

 

[tabcom]

I think tabcom’s “comfort” comes from the proclamation of the significance of the Incarnation as part of Catholic liturgies at Christmas.

With respects to . . .

Originally Posted by tabcom
. . . . I believe, people do understand the historical significance of Jesus being a real person. What is significant is that they don’t care because they do not believe. For me, that is comforting to know.

The comfort comes from what Jesus said in Luke 13:24. Also, see 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

OK I get it, you’re “comforted” by your belief that you and the rest of your little denomination . . .

“Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.” Luke 12:32.

 

[Petergee]

The comfort comes from what Jesus said in Luke 13:24.

Ok, so you’re convinced that you’re one of the chosen few who will (already have?) entered by the narrow door. That still doesn’t explain why you would find “comfort” in the fact that so many others are going to perdition.

And the fact that Catholics may use the NAB does not make it “a Catholic Bible”.

 

[tabcom]

And the fact that Catholics may use the NAB does not make it “a Catholic Bible”.

with respects to ‘the term ‘full of grace’ is not in the original greek text, nor my NAB (Catholic) Bible.’

Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (1966)

Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!”

Original Greek Interlinear Bible –

http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/4/9/8/8/2/6/webimg/92111726_o.jpg

kexaritomena means “highly favored, make accepted, make graceful”.

It does not mean “full of grace” which is “plaras karitos” (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek.

* 5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored” (Lk 1:28+) (Swanson, J. (1997). Dictionary of Biblical Languages with Semantic Domains : Greek (New Testament) (electronic ed.) (GGK5923). Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
* 5487 χαριτόω [charitoo /khar·ee·to·o/] v. From 5485; TDNT 9:372; TDNTA 1298; GK 5923; Two occurrences; AV translates as “be highly favoured” once, and “make accepted” once. 1 to make graceful. 1a charming, lovely, agreeable. 2 to peruse with grace, compass with favour. 3 to honour with blessings.  ( Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the test of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G5487). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

Luke 1:28 is just one example of dozens of changes that the 1966 RSV-CE made. you can read all the other changes at:

Changes made in the RSV-CE

 

[po18guy]

God declaring His creation good, was prior to Him creating Adam and Eve and putting them in a garden and telling them ‘thou shall not’. It is the devils doctrine to believe that we can be like God and declare everything good.

Neither can you call Jesus “Good” or “Savior” or “Son of the Most High” since only God or His angels may use such words. You don’t want to be an idolater, or blasphemer do you?!?

(For) whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother."

Ah, but part of that will is when Jesus commanded us to eat His Body and drink His Blood. Not bread and wine. His Body and Blood. Please give the specific verse that says this is figurative, and just who interpreted it thusly, and their theological qualifications, and the history of their teaching, in an unbroken line, that goes directly back to Christ. Proof, that’s what I demand before I cling to any modernist teaching!

Who defined your shortened canon of scripture? And, why did they delete the OT books that contain passages that are quoted by the Apostles in the NT? If that is not a caution flag, nothing is.

The peace of Christ be always with you.