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Petergee
Guest
And wjhat on earth does this equation have to do with trees?
Between what?
A cross and a tree? You’re obviously not familiar with the Bible’s frequent reference to the Cross as “a tree”. 
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tabcom
Guest
There are two Jesus’ in the bible.
How does a Believer tell the difference between them? By their doctrine.
**
Christmas Tree = Satan’s Doctrine = the doctrine of fulfill self (1 John 2:15-17).**
John gives such warnings in 1 John 2:15-17.
15
Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16
For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and a pretentious life, is not from the Father but is from the world.
17
Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.
That sums up the material world. Lust of the flesh, lust of the eye, and the pride of life. That is the unholy trinity that caused Eve to fall when she was seduced by the serpent and accepted her gift from the first christmas tree.
The Cross = Jesus’ Doctrine = the doctrine of death to self (Luke 9:23)
And (Jesus) was saying to {them} all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.
Perform this experiment this christmas season. While watching television, listening to the radio, reading the newspaper, going to the mall, or simply going shopping, take a critical look at what the message is being sent by these advertisements and in the churches. Is any of it preaching the Doctrine of Christ? Or is it preaching the devils doctrine of fulfill self?
po18guy
Well-known member
Sorry! A little too cryptic. This fear of trees must have some basis in reality?!?! As for me and my house, we will fear the Lord.
po18guy
Well-known member
Don’t quite get this one…
Find a spirit-filled Catholic, like those you meet here, and go to mass. It’s one hour. Could you not even spend one hour with the Lord?
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justasking4
Guest
Luke 1:48, Romans 3:9-10, Romans 5:12, Mary died.
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guanophore
Guest
Don’t be absurd, tabcom. The Mass evolved from the synagogue service, which you can plainly see if you attend one today. All the first Christians were Jews, and used to go to synagogue on Saturday (until they were kicked out) and gather to celebrate the Lord’s Day on Sundays.
Honestly, do you really believe people WORSHIP their Christmas trees!!?
Do you think having a Christmas tree is the same as worshipping Baal?!
Why are you using Maccabees at all, since you don’t consider it inspired scripture?
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Petergee
Guest
There are two Jesus’ in the bible.
How does a Believer tell the difference between them? By their doctrine.
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tabcom
Guest
From where did the first tree worship begin? I believe it began in Gen 2:16.
Genesis 2:16 17 – of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it.
And what was the ‘real power’ that was promised to Eve?
Genesis 3:5
“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
After spending the past seven years not doing Christmas, I believe the tree metaphorically represents the tree in the garden.
When one bows down to accept a gift from the tree, they are doing three things: they want that present with their name on it (lust of the eye). After opening the gift and seeing that they received what they wished for (lust of the flesh), it makes them feel good (pride of life).
1 John 2:15-17
15
Do not love the world or the things of the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16
For all that is in the world, sensual lust, enticement for the eyes, and pride life, is not from the Father but is from the world.
17
Yet the world and its enticement are passing away. But whoever does the will of God remains forever.
I humbly submit this not to enrage, but to testify, as to my personal path to Christ.
I’m afraid that if you cannot see the metaphorical imagery, you are missing my point.
Luke 12:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Covetousness = Idolatry
covetousness- greek: pleonektes- to want more; greediness
Idolatry = wanting more
Every man is covetous by nature until God deals with him and causes him to repent (turn from self to God). The word devil (daimon) means to distribute fortunes. A covetous man who “wants more” has a devil. Covetousness is the idolatrous worship of self. It is an idolatry as evil as falling down before Baal, the christmas tree, the golden calf, or any one of the ancient pagan deities of Babylon.
Paul said, “having food and raiment, let us be there with content” (I Tim. 6:8). He also said, “I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” (Phil. 4:11).
People, myself included, are involved in idolatry when they refuse to be content with what they have. Their hearts cry out, “I want more.”
Your assumption not withstanding, the point is that the Jews kicked the tree out of the temple.
po18guy
Well-known member
You think that we don’t believe that Mary died? Come on! We have tried to explain Christ’s church to you and your heart will not be moved. Just whom was John speaking of in 1:13 “Not of human stock”? He did not say “all believers” but rather “to those who accepted Him He gave power to become children of God” What did the Angel mean when He said “You who enjoy God’s favor” in Luke 1:28? Who else was ever greeted in such a manner? Luke 1:41-42 indicates, from the mouth of one directly blessed by God, Elizabeth, that Mary’s presence even caused her to be filled with the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist leapt at hearing Mary’s voice. And you don’t wonder why?
Luke 1:48 also indicates, not the condemnation of Mary, but that she was eternally Blessed. Elizabeth says so, and so does Mary herself, in exalting God. Jesus, being God (you do believe this, right?) created His own mother. What ind of mother would you create, even in your mortal, sinful state? Would you create a sinner mother like yourself, or a perfect one? How can God willfully create sin? Why would God in Christ suddenly reverse everything He has done since creation, and demand that He be born of sin? No! God, Who does not change, would be born of a very special woman - one who would rather do His will than live. One who chose to be obedient, even under the penalty of death by stoning for what appeared to be adultery to the authorities of her time.
So, it appears that you believe God, for some strange reason, would not and did not desire a perfect vessel to carry himself. This in spite of His commands to Moses regarding the ark of the covenant. Since Christ is also God’s Covenant, the new and Everlasting Covenant, why would he not deserve the respect of being carried in a spotless vessel? Why must your god be carried in sin for you to believe?
Eve, the mother of all the living, was conceived of and created without sin. Mary, the Mother of God, is also the mother of all who are alive in Christ. Why must your heart denigrate her, casting aspersions and filth at her? What is it about the woman chosen by Christ that so offends you? I will not stand before God and explain why I disdained anyone He sent out of love for me.
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epostle
Guest
“But the Bible is definitely against Christmas trees!” many proclaim with reference to Jeremiah 10:2-4: “Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen…For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and hammers, that it move not.”
Now if this passage refers to decorated Christmas trees, we most certainly would be disobeying God by having them. But by no legitimate interpretation can this 10th chapter of Jeremiah be twisted into a prohibition or condemnation of Christmas trees! The context plainly associates the action not with apostates in this Christian dispensation, but with idolaters who were alive at the time! Jeremiah is not foreseeing paganism 2000 years in the future (the first Christmas tree apparently was decorated in the 16th century AD), but denouncing rampant contemporary heathenism!
Jeremiah writes to Jews about to go into captivity in Babylon. The circumstance dictating his rebuke was the widespread idolatry in the land whither the captives were bound. The prophet’s purpose was to forewarn the Jews against apostatizing further in their new and idolatrous environment, and to give guidance how to avoid involvement in rites and orgies indulged in by their eventual neighbors.
A reading of the entire chapter gives a proper perspective for understanding the chapter. Verse 11 offers a formula pious Jews might use to decline the invitations of their neighbors to participate in the ceremonies: “Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under the heavens.”
But what about the tree in this chapter? Obviously the passage has nothing to do with decorating a tree. The warnings relate to the practice of carving idols! A man fells a tree and transports the trunk to a woodworker who carves an idol therefrom with his axe. While the rich could afford idols made of molten metals, the poor had to content themselves with gods of wood (cf. Isaiah 40:19, 20). In Jeremiah 10 we have a wooden idol plated with precious metals. The prophet outlines the steps in the “creation” of such gods: First, the log is felled—“one cutteth a tree out of the forest;” second, the trunk is carved—“the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe;” and third, the idol is plated—“then deck it with silver and with gold.”
Verses eight and nine corroborate that this decking refers to the covering: “…the stock is a doctrine of vanities. Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.” Thus not only is the idol plated, it is clothed with bright rainment— something true of no Christmas tree which I have ever seen.
But some might still be puzzled about why Jeremiah would refer to an idol as a tree. The prophet here uses a figure of speech called synecdoche by which the name of the material is used to denote the product made of it. Since the tree was used in making the idol, the finished product is by synecdoche called a tree. Likewise the Bible refers to Jesus’ cross as a tree because its materials came from such a source.
Is God against Christmas trees? The Bible certainly does not so reveal. But even if he were, that would hardly dictate abolition of the whole Christmas observance. Is there anything intrinsically immoral or unrighteous about a decorated tree? Are lights on a fir tree more evil than candles on a birthday cake? Is a tree in the house more improper than having plants and cut flowers indoors? If you think so, then by all means remove your tree. But don’t use a Christmas tree as a whipping boy to slander Christmas!
IS GOD AGAINST CHRISTMAS?
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/ISGODAGI.HTM
Now if this passage refers to decorated Christmas trees, we most certainly would be disobeying God by having them. But by no legitimate interpretation can this 10th chapter of Jeremiah be twisted into a prohibition or condemnation of Christmas trees! The context plainly associates the action not with apostates in this Christian dispensation, but with idolaters who were alive at the time! Jeremiah is not foreseeing paganism 2000 years in the future (the first Christmas tree apparently was decorated in the 16th century AD), but denouncing rampant contemporary heathenism!
Jeremiah writes to Jews about to go into captivity in Babylon. The circumstance dictating his rebuke was the widespread idolatry in the land whither the captives were bound. The prophet’s purpose was to forewarn the Jews against apostatizing further in their new and idolatrous environment, and to give guidance how to avoid involvement in rites and orgies indulged in by their eventual neighbors.
A reading of the entire chapter gives a proper perspective for understanding the chapter. Verse 11 offers a formula pious Jews might use to decline the invitations of their neighbors to participate in the ceremonies: “Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under the heavens.”
But what about the tree in this chapter? Obviously the passage has nothing to do with decorating a tree. The warnings relate to the practice of carving idols! A man fells a tree and transports the trunk to a woodworker who carves an idol therefrom with his axe. While the rich could afford idols made of molten metals, the poor had to content themselves with gods of wood (cf. Isaiah 40:19, 20). In Jeremiah 10 we have a wooden idol plated with precious metals. The prophet outlines the steps in the “creation” of such gods: First, the log is felled—“one cutteth a tree out of the forest;” second, the trunk is carved—“the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe;” and third, the idol is plated—“then deck it with silver and with gold.”
Verses eight and nine corroborate that this decking refers to the covering: “…the stock is a doctrine of vanities. Silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the workman, and of the hands of the founder: blue and purple is their clothing: they are all the work of cunning men.” Thus not only is the idol plated, it is clothed with bright rainment— something true of no Christmas tree which I have ever seen.
But some might still be puzzled about why Jeremiah would refer to an idol as a tree. The prophet here uses a figure of speech called synecdoche by which the name of the material is used to denote the product made of it. Since the tree was used in making the idol, the finished product is by synecdoche called a tree. Likewise the Bible refers to Jesus’ cross as a tree because its materials came from such a source.
Is God against Christmas trees? The Bible certainly does not so reveal. But even if he were, that would hardly dictate abolition of the whole Christmas observance. Is there anything intrinsically immoral or unrighteous about a decorated tree? Are lights on a fir tree more evil than candles on a birthday cake? Is a tree in the house more improper than having plants and cut flowers indoors? If you think so, then by all means remove your tree. But don’t use a Christmas tree as a whipping boy to slander Christmas!
IS GOD AGAINST CHRISTMAS?
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/ISGODAGI.HTM
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tabcom
Guest
epostle . . . the ewtn.com citation is most interesting. Thank you for allowing me to comment on it.
What is idolatry?
Luke 12:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man’s life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Covetousness = Idolatry
covetousness- greek: pleonektes- to want more; greediness
Idolatry = wanting more
Every man is covetous by nature until God deals with him and causes him to repent (turn from self to God). The word devil (daimon) means to distribute fortunes. A covetous man who “wants more” has a devil. Covetousness is the idolatrous worship of self. It is an idolatry as evil as falling down before Baal, the christmas tree, the golden calf, or any one of the ancient pagan deities of Babylon.
Paul said, “having food and raiment, let us be there with content” (I Tim. 6:8). He also said, “I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” (Phil. 4:11).
People, myself included, are involved in idolatry when they refuse to be content with what they have. Their hearts cry out, “I want more.”
As the days of Noah were, so shall the coming of the son of man (Jesus) be at the end of time. The world will be eating and drinking (partying, fulfilling their own desires), marrying and giving in marriage (marrying truth and a lie) (Matt. 24:38).
After the flood, Nimrod re-instituted, at Babel (Babylon), the rebellion of Eden, setting up a new boundary (city and tower), and a new commandment (name or authority). Pride (let us make a name) is the foundation of “all” idolatry (spiritual harlotry) that has polluted the world for all time. It is the system of self-worship. (Repent means to turn from self to God). Babel began a series of “world order” beast (ruling) systems (Dan. 2:31-45; 7:3-7). These empires, (beasts) ruled all the civilized world and fell as one conquered the other (Babylon, Persia/Medes, Greece, Rome. etc). America has dispensed with icon (statue) worship and retained the “self-esteem” (pride) system of Rome/Babylon and is polluting the world with it. Babylon fell once as a literal empire never to rise again (Jer. 51:26). The second time she will fall as a wicked idolatrous religious system of “self-esteem” and “pride”. (Babylon is fallen, is fallen - Rev. 18:2).
Christians are commanded to be on alert for such signs.
I Thess. 5:2, 4, 6 – For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night – But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you as a thief. – Therefore let us not sleep (spiritually) as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
- watch - Greek: gregoreuo - keep awake; stand alert or watch.
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pete_29
Guest
I have an artificial tree, does tha t count.
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tabcom
Guest
No . . . . but Proverbs 26:04 does, pete 29.
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mercygate
Guest
Touche’, tab!
T
tabcom
Guest
my pleasure.
po18guy
Well-known member
tabcom, we have all the same scripture, and more. Can you see any difference between having possessions and sinful attachment to those possessions? How is the mechanic supposed to make his living without tools of the trade?
How did Saint Joseph and Christ fashion wood into useful items without tools? Were they sinful or lustful each time they desired to make, purchase or find a tool used to make a particular item? No! They were not sinfully attached to those items.
To walk your talk, we would all have to sell everything and become nomadic tribesmen! But, sell to whom? You then condemn the person to whom you sell your possessions, if mere possession is s sin. And you tempt them to sin even if possession alone is not sin, for they may develop an attachment to those possessions.
Please, it is the disordered attachment to anything (except God) that condemns one. Christ doesn’t condemn us. By our actions, we condemn ourselves.
Christ’s peace this Advent and Christmas.
T
tabcom
Guest
The old pagan dieties are not gone at all. They have reshaped themselves into new and much powerful forms. Jeremiah lived right before Israel was carried into captivity in 586 BC. Pagan worship did not end with him. Paul was constantly teaching baby believers not to be sudducced by pagan gods in their various forms (That came after Christ).
2 Cor 11:3
But I (Paul) am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity {of devotion} to Christ.
And at the end of time, John writes in
Re 20:2 -
And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan
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tabcom
Guest
You can see those dead gods about a week after Christmas. Their corpses can be found at the curb awaiting the garbage man to pick them up and send them to their final resting place.
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epostle
Guest
Tabcom, how do you get ego-worship and pride from a Christmas tree? I agree that these are idols of our day, but a Christmas tree is not a religious symbol, it is a cultural one, and cultural fascists are out to destroy what is good.
“It is simply wrong to maintain that the sensitivity police want to scrub society clean of all vestiges of religion. As the following examples demonstrate, Christianity is their real target.”
· A spokesman explained that the reason K-Mart forbids calling Christmas trees Christmas trees is because “we do not want to offend any of our associates.” So they are dubbed “Holiday Trees.”
· A staff member at North Seattle Community College was berated for discussing “Christmas cookies” in an e-mail.
· Menorahs are called menorahs—not candelabra—at LSU, but Christmas trees are called “Holiday Trees.”
· Hanukkah and the Islamic holy day Eid al-Adha are mentioned in the school calendar of the Spokane Public Schools, but Christmas is not.
· Minutes after a “Giving Tree” was displayed at a school in Leominster, Massachusetts, some parents complained and it was immediately taken down.
· A Christmas tree was taken down after a faculty member complained at Missouri State University, but was later restored. No one complained about the menorah.
· A miniature nativity scene was removed from the main lobby of CentraState Medical Center in New Jersey, but was later restored. No one complained about the menorah.
· Hanukkah is celebrated at Harvard, but not Christmas. A giant menorah sits in Harvard Yard but there is not a nativity scene in sight.
· Pembroke Lakes Mall in South Florida displays a 5-foot-tall menorah but all nativity scenes have been censored.
Donohue concludes as follows: “In Israel there are menorahs aplenty. And in the Muslim nations, stars and crescents are displayed. So why is it that in a nation that is overwhelmingly Christian, manger scenes are banned but Jewish and Muslim symbols are not? There is something sick going on.”
catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1369
“It is simply wrong to maintain that the sensitivity police want to scrub society clean of all vestiges of religion. As the following examples demonstrate, Christianity is their real target.”
· A spokesman explained that the reason K-Mart forbids calling Christmas trees Christmas trees is because “we do not want to offend any of our associates.” So they are dubbed “Holiday Trees.”
· A staff member at North Seattle Community College was berated for discussing “Christmas cookies” in an e-mail.
· Menorahs are called menorahs—not candelabra—at LSU, but Christmas trees are called “Holiday Trees.”
· Hanukkah and the Islamic holy day Eid al-Adha are mentioned in the school calendar of the Spokane Public Schools, but Christmas is not.
· Minutes after a “Giving Tree” was displayed at a school in Leominster, Massachusetts, some parents complained and it was immediately taken down.
· A Christmas tree was taken down after a faculty member complained at Missouri State University, but was later restored. No one complained about the menorah.
· A miniature nativity scene was removed from the main lobby of CentraState Medical Center in New Jersey, but was later restored. No one complained about the menorah.
· Hanukkah is celebrated at Harvard, but not Christmas. A giant menorah sits in Harvard Yard but there is not a nativity scene in sight.
· Pembroke Lakes Mall in South Florida displays a 5-foot-tall menorah but all nativity scenes have been censored.
Donohue concludes as follows: “In Israel there are menorahs aplenty. And in the Muslim nations, stars and crescents are displayed. So why is it that in a nation that is overwhelmingly Christian, manger scenes are banned but Jewish and Muslim symbols are not? There is something sick going on.”
catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1369
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