A Funny Thing Happened

[Lost_Sheep]

…at my recent High School reunion. (Catholic High school).

When I was in school, I had a female friend (I’ll call Karen) who had always aspired to be come a nun. She always conducted herself in a “religious” manner, dressed conservatively even for Catholic school, and could often been seen praying her rosary during study hall or in the corner of the library. She felt that she had a calling and everyone respected her for that. She entered a convent as a postulant while still in college and later joined the order. That’s when I lost track of her.

Fast forward 35 years. At our reunion, we saw each in the hallway and immediately ran to each other and had a big hug. I said “It’s good to see you Karen, or I guess it’s ‘Sister Karen’ now.”

She said “Not any more.”

Huh?

“I’m a Lutheran minister now.”

I was completely flabbergasted! All those years she aspired to join the Sisters, but later decided it wasn’t leading her in what she felt was the right direction; particularly on the issue or ordaining women.

As we talked more, it became evident to me that she is happy where she is now. She has her own church in Colorado, she is well-liked by her congregation, and takes great joy in her ministry. She sincerely believes this is where she belongs and is at peace with herself.

So since she has left the Catholic Church, tell me again why she is going to Hell. After all, in the eyes of the Church, she has committed a mortal sin.

 

[Will_B]

To make a long story short, without quoting chapter and verse of the CCC or any C S Lewis book.

If you know the truth and reject the truth, you are at the mercy of God.

If you know the truth and follow the truth, you are in God’s grace.

If you have been told a lie, and believe that lie is the truth; then the person who started the lie stands condemned (or tossed into the sea with a millstone around his neck)… The person who followed the lie, believing it was truth, may very well be in God’s grace. (??)

Now the question is, for Karen, why did she abandon the truth?

We are not the Judge, only God can judge the heart of a human.

 

[Bballer32]

First of all it’s God’s judgement. Not ours.

Second, why not just look at the simple way of understanding this. If you have mortal sin on your soul, your chances of getting to heaven slim (with a sin only being mortal when it is willing AND against the commandments. So, denying God is a sin against the commandment and the Church is his Bride so denying the Church is DENYING God.

complicated topic put into simple words.

God Bless!

 

[Lost_Sheep]

First of all it’s God’s judgement. Not ours.

OK. No argument there.

Second, why not just look at the simple way of understanding this. If you have mortal sin on your soul, your chances of getting to heaven slim (with a sin only being mortal when it is willing AND against the commandments. So, denying God is a sin against the commandment and the Church is his Bride so denying the Church is DENYING God.

I really don’t believe she is denying God.

But if the Once-A-Catholic-Always-A-Catholic rule holds true, then by the simple fact she no longer attends Mass means she has committed a mortal sin because despite the fact that she now considers herself a Lutheran, the Church still sees her as Catholic and subject to Catholic rules.

I’m constantly reading here on CAF that if you die in the state of mortal sin, you go to Hell. Plain and simple.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Lost Sheep, we can’t know what will happen to her when she dies. You are actually technically incorrect to say that, in the eyes of the Church, she has committed a mortal sin.

All we can know is that she has committed a grave sin. For a sin to be mortal, it must be done with full knowledge and full consent. Those last two criteria are subjective.

So has she committed a mortal sin, or is she not culpable, to one degree or another, of heresy?

We cannot know the answer to this. This is especially true in light of the fact that you say you lost track of her for over three decades. Who knows what happened to her between then and now? Only God does. He loves her and will make sure she is offered every chance to repent.

All we should do is pray for her, and what we must not do is judge her. A spiritually productive, mature Christian is hard on himself/herself and lenient with others.

 

[Lost_Sheep]

So you are saying God may “cut her some slack”?

 

[Joe_5859]

OK. No argument there.

I really don’t believe she is denying God.

But if the Once-A-Catholic-Always-A-Catholic rule holds true, then by the simple fact she no longer attends Mass means she has committed a mortal sin because despite the fact that she now considers herself a Lutheran, the Church still sees her as Catholic and subject to Catholic rules.

I’m constantly reading here on CAF that if you die in the state of mortal sin, you go to Hell. Plain and simple.

Yes, but for a sin to be mortal, one also need full knowledge and complete consent. We know the sin is grave matter, but we can only speculate (which we probably shouldn’t do ) as to whether or not she meets the other two conditions.

People can be sincere, but still be wrong. I’m sure she believes she made the right call and she might even be really happy. That doesn’t change the fact that it’s wrong.

 

[St_Donatus]

To be honest, I am curious about what happened in between the time you saw her and now. I know that there are some more liberal orders of nuns that aspire to be priests and if she joined one of these orders, they very well could have influenced her. This is why I am so very gravely concerned about the situation with the LCWR and many of the beliefs promoted by them. Many of these nuns are the main source of religious education for lay Catholics. I personally had my thinking corrupted by some liberal clergy and after leaving the Catholic Church for thirty years, by Gods grace, I was able to find my way back.

I will always lament the loss of those thirty years when I could have served God fully and perhaps encouraged other Catholics to keep up the hard fight. Sadly, during that time I helped lead some Catholics to leave the Church. I feel that if the liberal clergy that had helped me fall away, had been disciplined by the Church, perhaps they would never had led me astray and I would not have led yet others away.

I pray every night for the nuns in the LCWR that have been lead astray. By Gods grace, may the be shown the light of the Truth that only can be received from his holy Church on earth.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

So you are saying God may “cut her some slack”?

That’s not exactly what I was saying, but of course it’s also true. God cuts all of us a great deal of slack, more than we can probably ever truly appreciate.

What I was saying is this: take heart. Catholic teaching not only does not lead to the conclusion that she is in “mortal sin” and is going to hell; it actually prohibits us from passing judgment on her.

That’s not to mitigate the seriousness of her decision, though. We should be praying for her, and we shouldn’t presume on God’s mercy. Like any of us, she may go to heaven or hell. But we will never have enough information to make that call ourselves.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

…at my recent High School reunion. (Catholic High school).

When I was in school, I had a female friend (I’ll call Karen) who had always aspired to be come a nun. She always conducted herself in a “religious” manner, dressed conservatively even for Catholic school, and could often been seen praying her rosary during study hall or in the corner of the library. She felt that she had a calling and everyone respected her for that. She entered a convent as a postulant while still in college and later joined the order. That’s when I lost track of her.

Fast forward 35 years. At our reunion, we saw each in the hallway and immediately ran to each other and had a big hug. I said “It’s good to see you Karen, or I guess it’s ‘Sister Karen’ now.”

She said “Not any more.”

Huh?

“I’m a Lutheran minister now.”

I was completely flabbergasted! All those years she aspired to join the Sisters, but later decided it wasn’t leading her in what she felt was the right direction; particularly on the issue or ordaining women.

As we talked more, it became evident to me that she is happy where she is now. She has her own church in Colorado, she is well-liked by her congregation, and takes great joy in her ministry. She sincerely believes this is where she belongs and is at peace with herself.

So since she has left the Catholic Church, tell me again why she is going to Hell. After all, in the eyes of the Church, she has committed a mortal sin.

Actually in the eyes of the Church we do not know if she has committed a mortal sin because the Church tells us what a mortal sin is not if we have committed one, so there is your strike one. Your religious peference states your a Catholic so you know this is a grave matter which you are either making light of or defending, so there is your strike two. Plus you lied about this being a funny thing in order to bring posts to the thread, so there is your strike three.

Your out! Who is next up to bat?

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

Actually in the eyes of the Church we do not know if she has committed a mortal sin because the Church tells us what a mortal sin is not if we have committed one, so there is your strike one. Your religious peference states your a Catholic so you know this is a grave matter which you are either making light of or defending, so there is your strike two. Plus you lied about this being a funny thing in order to bring posts to the thread, so there is your strike three.

Your out! Who is next up to bat?

You’re being too harsh on Lost Sheep. I don’t think (s)he meant “funny” in the sense of “THIS IS HILARIOUS!” but rather “funny” in the sense of “ironic.” The discovery of Karen’s dramatic religious change certainly thwarted expectations, and therefore fits that connotation of “funny” quite well.

 

[mfrances]

You’re being too harsh on Lost Sheep. I don’t think (s)he meant “funny” in the sense of “THIS IS HILARIOUS!” but rather “funny” in the sense of “ironic.” The discovery of Karen’s dramatic religious change certainly thwarted expectations, and therefore fits that connotation of “funny” quite well.

I agree, the OP was not trying to up their posts. Funny can also mean strange or ironic.

 

[coachkfan1]

I am in total agreement that we are not to judge anyone else’s eternal fate. Here is a little something that the Word of God has to say though:

**4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen[c] away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Hebrews 6:4-6**

 

[Lost_Sheep]

You’re being too harsh on Lost Sheep. I don’t think (s)he meant “funny” in the sense of “THIS IS HILARIOUS!” but rather “funny” in the sense of “ironic.” The discovery of Karen’s dramatic religious change certainly thwarted expectations, and therefore fits that connotation of “funny” quite well.

Thank you.

First, I am a “He.”

Second, I did mean funny ironic. It’s also a tribute/satire of the 1966 movie “A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum” staring Zero Mostel.

And while I agree that we should not pass judgement and can’t say for sure if a mortal sin as been committed, I see this as erring on the side of caution. Certainly with her Catholic upbringing and education she should be aware of Church teachings and I find it unlikely she is/was unaware of the spiritual consequences of such as decision.

Now, let’s assume for a moment that she has in fact committed a mortal since (again we can’t say for sure, but for the sake of discussion let’s assume she has). Following Church rules despite all the good she may have done as a Lutheran, she is not in good graces with God because of that mortal sin. Right?

 

[Joe_5859]

Thank you.

First, I am a “He.”

Second, I did mean funny ironic. It’s also a tribute/satire of the 1966 movie “A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum” staring Zero Mostel.

And while I agree that we should not pass judgement and can’t say for sure if a mortal sin as been committed, I see this as erring on the side of caution. Certainly with her Catholic upbringing and education she should be aware of Church teachings and I find it unlikely she is/was unaware of the spiritual consequences of such as decision.

Now, let’s assume for a moment that she has in fact committed a mortal since (again we can’t say for sure, but for the sake of discussion let’s assume she has). Following Church rules despite all the good she may have done as a Lutheran, she is not in good graces with God because of that mortal sin. Right?

Even someone who would seem to have no excuse not to have full knowledge of the immorality of an act may be so overwhelmingly taken in by the prevailing culture that they can really blind themselves. Perhaps someone who she trusted (like a priest or an older nun) told her it was just fine for her to leave the Church because the Church is “dragging their heels on the women’s ordination thing.”

Mortal sin severs our relationship with God, but we’re never totally cast off this side of heaven (if we were, we would cease to exist). And there is always hope that such a person would be afforded the opportunity to recognize what they have done and repudiate it at the moment of death.

I find situations like this to emphasize the importance of really living our faith as we ought to be living it. We know God is merciful and we hope for the salvation of all. But it’s a lot easier for ourselves if we follow the plan as He revealed to us through His Church.

 

[fix]

Now, let’s assume for a moment that she has in fact committed a mortal since (again we can’t say for sure, but for the sake of discussion let’s assume she has). Following Church rules despite all the good she may have done as a Lutheran, she is not in good graces with God because of that mortal sin. Right?

We really should not speculate about any person. Hypothetically, if a person is in the state of mortal sin they cannot enter heaven. It is not about adding up good and bad and the heavier side wins.

It is that the “rules” are followed because we love God. It is hypocritical to say we love God and then break the “rules”.

Can you imagine a married man committing adultery and saying he was a good provider and loves his wife therefore not following the rules that one time was ok?

 

[Lost_Sheep]

Can you imagine a married man committing adultery and saying he was a good provider and loves his wife therefore not following the rules that one time was ok?

So using this analogy, she would go to Hell.

 

[mountee]

I read your post this morning and it struck a nerve in me, but I couldn’t figure out what I wanted to say. What you experienced has happened to me so many times over the last several years that I couldn’t begin to count how many. It seemed to me that you are trying to determine if you will stay Catholic, although you didn’t say that in so many words, but your name and other things on your profile suggest it. Then you look at the idea that your old friend once a great Catholic is now a happy non-Catholic minister and is she committing a mortal sin? How would we ever know the answer to this as she has to do decide so many things for herself, and if I were to guess she no longer cares about the concept of mortal sin. Judging can become a very serious problem when we start to look at someone’s life that is not our own and try to determine if there is mortal sin as we do not have the key to anyone’s conscience but our own. One day we will have that private conversation with God and when we are done we will know the truth about the faith we tried to live on this earth. I have many old friends who can no longer tolerate the teachings of the Church. They say things like, “but surely Mountee you don’t believe in the archaic law against birth control do you?” This past week I had a friend post on her FB site a link to something about the Church and she said “and this is why I hate the Catholic Church.” I could go on and on with similar tales, but the bottom line is this, I have to live my life in a way that is pleasing to God and worrying about other people who have chosen other paths is not going to work. Each day I have to try to live a life that people watch and say, wow, Mountee is really happy and peaceful, I want to have that too. And, when they watch how I live and what I believe in they will know the truth, that a Catholic way of life is my answer. God bless you.

 

[fix]

So using this analogy, she would go to Hell.

Mortal kills the soul, yes. Unless one repents.

 

[St_Donatus]

We really should not speculate about any person. Hypothetically, if a person is in the state of mortal sin they cannot enter heaven. It is not about adding up good and bad and the heavier side wins.

It is that the “rules” are followed because we love God. It is hypocritical to say we love God and then break the “rules”.

Can you imagine a married man committing adultery and saying he was a good provider and loves his wife therefore not following the rules that one time was ok?

Good point. Honestly though, as I mentioned earlier, I had persons I trusted as authoritative in the Church (clergy) who basically told me that it was okay for me to do certain things against Church teaching. These same clergy were those who taught me Church teaching. In many cases, I didn’t know I was not following Gods way because of that poor Catechizing. So the question remains, was she taught false doctrines by some of her fellow nuns? If, like me, she was lead astray, what culpability do those clergy that lead the way hold? Plenty I suppose.