A Global Catholic Council of Women Elders as Opposed to Appointments of Women to the Cardinal Position

[Saints_Alive]

Brendon my friend… that is either a poor arguement for continued denial of the full role of women in our church or a very narrow view of the purpose of the church…

Trickster

Actually it’s a true Catholic argument.

Are you a convert ?

 

[choliks]

After reading your post, I thought about it. I would really like to be a ciborium. Not just any ciborium but the kind that gets put in the tabernacle.

I’d like to be a monstrance or ostensorium.

 

[trickster]

Bruce, a ciborium is the sacred vessel which holds the Hosts. There are some who will find it hard to believe that a Catholic doesn’t know that.

Well I am happy to have raised eyebrows … listen I have been Catholic all my life and we called the “ciborium” a chalice … go figure eh…

Trickster

 

[trickster]

I’d like to be a monstrance or ostensorium.

OK, not falling for this a second time…going to look up the word ostensorium before I ask what the "hell’’ is it…

Trickster

 

[Abba]

Martha and Mary… one was busy in the “motherhood arguement” that most conservative catholics always rely on , but the other was busy in questioning, and listening and being one with Our Lord. Women in the church are not limited to creating babies and raising families, or limited to being nuns…

It seems that the understanding is that the value and dignity of a human being is measured by what public position the human being holds in society. Being pregnant, giving birth and raising little ones is presented as a beastly, low thing and I must say even some Fathers of the Church presented as such, perhaps impart due to the time they lived in.

I don’t agree with this view. I agree with Mother Theresa, when visiting New York (if I recall correctly) she said that the civilization of a society can be measured by how that society values mother and child. I think it is the erroneous perception of motherhood that needs to be adjusted.

Of course, the Pope can always hire some heavy duty female financial analyst to take care the financial situation of the Vatican. What I do not have much appreciation for is the idea that women have to hold powerful important public positions to demonstrate the worth. If we play into that we are only playing in the discrimination of women and mothers.

 

[Phemie]

Well I am happy to have raised eyebrows … listen I have been Catholic all my life and we called the “ciborium” a chalice … go figure eh…

Trickster

The chalice is the vessel that holds the Precious Blood.

 

[Corki]

In learning recently about cardinals, the potential role of appointing lay cardinals and that includes women, I found the idea exciting. So I thought, about a global body made up of women appointed by the Pope to form a new “cardinal like college” in the Vatican as an alternative to appointing women to the college of cardinals. If the position of Cardinal is instituitonally made and governed by canon law, then it is of equal value to create via our vatican institution a female body that would act with the same powers of the cardinal positoin and even vote for the new pope. The only difference is that this body would not be ordained. And the totality of the church is not just the ordained, we are the church too… so why not?

Trickster

Wow, where to start?

This would address full participation of women in the life of the church and it would be a body that is defined by power of the female spirit and gender…you know all those reasons we say that women cannot be priests…just throwing it out there in the spirit of brainstorming, visioning and imagining…

Trickster.

Nothing in your proposal would address “full participation of women in the life of the Church”. Nor should “power” be a consideration in how the Church is governed, let alone how Popes are elected.

The only difference is that this body would not be ordained.

That would not be the only difference. There would also be the difference that they are women.

What would be the purposes of such a council? Is it your position that there should be some representative process imposed on the Church and the work of the Holy Spirit? Why single out elder women for “inclusion” while leaving out so many other groups who might want a “vote”? What about lay men, women religious, younger lay women, youth, married couples, non-Catholics?

There is also a practical matter of who would you get to serve on such a council? The type of woman who would possibly be appropriate would not likely be the slightest bit interested in it. And the type of women who would be most interested, at least in today’s Church, are those that should be as far away from any decision making as possible.

Most importantly, why would anyone want to denigrate women in this way? The idea that woman don’t participate in the life of the Church without some kind of invented title is to disregard the teachings of the Church, specifically addressed by the last three Popes (at least) on the unique gifts of women to the Church. Instead of embracing the uniqueness of the gifts, this type of proposal would effectively say ‘woman are only valuable if we create a parallel role that is just like the mens role.’

A woman doesn’t need to be treated like a man in order to be a full participant in the Church.

 

[Usige]

There is also a practical matter of who would you get to serve on such a council? The type of woman who would possibly be appropriate would not likely be the slightest bit interested in it. And the type of women who would be most interested, at least in today’s Church, are those that should be as far away from any decision making as possible.

Echos my thoughts exactly. Those that most want to drive the decisions are those that would likely do the most harm.

A woman doesn’t need to be treated like a man in order to be a full participant in the Church.

 

[MomaMary8]

Nothing in your proposal would address “full participation of women in the life of the Church”. Nor should “power” be a consideration in how the Church is governed, let alone how Popes are elected.

**Most importantly, why would anyone want to denigrate women in this way? ** The idea that woman don’t participate in the life of the Church without some kind of invented title is to disregard the teachings of the Church, specifically addressed by the last three Popes (at least) on the unique gifts of women to the Church. Instead of embracing the uniqueness of the gifts, this type of proposal would effectively say ‘woman are only valuable if we create a parallel role that is just like the mens role.’

A woman doesn’t need to be treated like a man in order to be a full participant in the Church.

(bold added)

I am not a man. I have been gifted with the glory of womanhood! The power that is innate in a woman is one that can only be fully realized when we meditate upon the mystery of the Virgin Birth and Our Lady (well, at least I feel that is how we can begin to realize the gift of being a woman.) As one who was raised amongst all boys, I know for certain that femininity is a gift that is not the same as masculinity and I for one am tired of society trying to make women into men. I am also tired of the push for power by various groups who wish to move the Church in the direction they see as best. Let us pray that only those who are given roles of authority do not want these roles, and that they are then guided by the Holy Spirit.

 

[M-Dent]

I want to be a religious sister.

(I am a man.)

Careful now, in this age of data-farming - you might start getting mail and email offers and specials from gender reassignment surgeons.

 

[revert_jen]

Most importantly, why would anyone want to denigrate women in this way? The idea that woman don’t participate in the life of the Church without some kind of invented title is to disregard the teachings of the Church, specifically addressed by the last three Popes (at least) on the unique gifts of women to the Church. Instead of embracing the uniqueness of the gifts, this type of proposal would effectively say ‘woman are only valuable if we create a parallel role that is just like the mens role.’

A woman doesn’t need to be treated like a man in order to be a full participant in the Church.

Exactly!

I refuse to accept the notion that in order to be as good as a man, I have to be like a man.

I do not believe that in order to be worth as much as men, women have to do all of the same things men do.

It’s not supposed to be the cardinals who are electing the Pope anyway; isn’t it supposed to be the Holy Spirit? Won’t He listen to the prayers of men and women equally?

I spent a good number of years working in a male-dominated field. I found that a lot of my most important contributions were actually more “feminine” than not. I was very good at customer meetings because I would listen to people and I could tell when they were talking at cross-purposes, and what’s more, I was able to help fix that. I was able to empathize with users of our (software) product and thus was pretty good at coming up with requirements that actually worked. (I could also do the technical things, but the guys on the team could do them too.)

The way to come up with “gender equality” is not to make women into carbon copies of men, but to do what the popes have been telling us to do, which is to acknowledge the value of the feminine.

–Jen

 

[trickster]

As if women do not already fully participate in the lfe of the Church.

Power of the female spirit? Blech.

I find this repulsive.

female spiritrepulsive…

Trickster

 

[trickster]

To be fair, he is aboriginal and that aboriginal spirituality is different from what we are used to.

thank you Phemie, those are very kind words. One of my own challenges it that I use words that I have learned within an aboriginal context…and the female spirit is reflected in our legends, stories and indeed our view of the earth. My concepts of eco-theology that looks at the inter-connectedness of nature and the Creator often cause confusion. These comments against what I have to say come from the heart and a western place that people from a western tradition are not used to hearing or they interpret it within western political or philosophical base (i.e. western feminism…) that is good cause if I just talk to people I agree with, then my own learning and my own spirit do not grow…Catholic Answers and the people in them - through their responses - always offers me the opportunity to learn how people view my words and I look forward to finding new words and expressions and or ways of explaining myself better…it`s all good.

Trickster
Bruce Ferguson

 

[trickster]

The teachings of the Catholic Church are not dependant on culture or country. They are of Jesus who founded the Catholic Church. We, as Catholics, need to identify as Catholic first before culture, country or political bias.

You are correct Johnny… however… the traditions of the church (i.e the forms of mass, etc.) I would argue have been dependant upon culture…the forms we have today come from a very specific Roman culture…but I agree that the teachings of our church are not just limited to our life on earth, they are eternal and universal.

My work is about taking cultural narratives (and we know that culture as a human creation is therefore an imperfect and fluid dynamic that changes over place and time) are in conversation with the universal and eternal teachings of our Church.

Trickster
Bruce

 

[trickster]

female spiritrepulsive…

Trickster

The above quote was written wrong - what I meant was female spirit - what part was repulsive to the poster…not that the idea that a female spirit is repulsive…sorry about that mistake on my part…

Trickster
Bruce

 

[Abba]

My work is about taking cultural narratives (and we know that culture as a human creation is therefore an imperfect and fluid dynamic that changes over place and time) are in conversation with the universal and eternal teachings of our Church.

I would just be very careful not to promote** syncretism** in the community where you are a leader. It will affect the members spiritual growth and understanding of the faith. I think it is best to learn the teachings of the Church with an open heart and mind. Learn as much as you can about her history, structure, spirituality, etc… And, from the Catholic perspective eliminate what does not belong in the beliefs and activities of the community and keep the rest. As if you were panning for gold, the Church is the pan and you keep what it did not eliminate.

This is done, at the individual level all the time. A person may be growing in the faith or spiritually developing and realizes that he/she needs to do some purging. So, you get rid off what does not belong and leave the rest. But, you don’t want to come from the position of I like a,b,c,d,e, etc… and let me see how I can integrate these things into my Catholic faith or how I can get the Church to adopt some of these things.

The direction you want to approach the Church with your culture may lead to syncretism. It’s best to approach the culture with a Catholic perspective (and eliminate what does not belong) than to approach the Church with the project of preserving as much as possible of a culture and it’s religious beliefs. I see a problem there, Trickster, but, you insist with your approach.

+++

I just want to note here that when I wrote about females perhaps not being the best to be in the confessional and listening to sins and having to keep all secret; I was recalling Mother Angelica who very humorously made fun of the whole idea on one of her shows. Of course, women can keep secrets and handle listening to difficult things (we have many fine psychiatrist, politicians, investigators, secret agents, heads of states, etc…), but it is the will of God that priests be males and their nature is more apt for the job.

 

[revert_jen]

The above quote was written wrong - what I meant was female spirit - what part was repulsive to the poster…not that the idea that a female spirit is repulsive…sorry about that mistake on my part…

Trickster
Bruce

I think that what 1ke meant was that the phrase “power of the female spirit” has become repulsive through being used and abused in western culture for the past few decades. At least, I find that phrase distasteful for that reason myself.

However, I think the problem there is at least partly one of terminology. Whe you are talking about the power of the female spirit, you may not be talking about the self-absorbed, moon-worshipping, nature-goddess, men-are-evil “power of the female spirit” that people in the west are used to hearing it mean. (I exaggerate, but you get the flavor of how the phrase can seem to people.)

It is possible that by the “power of the female spirit” you mean something more like what we are talking about when we refer to genuine femininity.

The problems arise when either gender decides that it is “better” than the other. They arise when men expect women to be ambitious in exactly the same way as men (and if they’re not, declare them unfit for a particular workplace) and when women deride men for not being “sensitive” in the same way women are. If we could get people to stop competing and recognize the complementarity of the genders and how each contributes equally to the totality of the human race, we would be a lot better off. It doesn’t require that women be cardinals, and it doesn’t require men to be Mr. Mom. It does require that we recognize that mothers are as important as cardinals, however.

–Jen

 

[Abba]

I just want to note that I made reference to the problem of syncretism on post #66 after understanding as per your post below; that you are not coming with your proposition of a Global Catholic Council of Women Elders from the position of western feminism but instead from the spirituality of the aboriginals of Canada. I then recalled having a discussion with you regarding the problem of syncretism a couple of years ago when you stated your intention of doing as much as you can to preserve the spirituality and culture of the aboriginals while adopting the Catholic faith.

Given that it has been made clear that the origin of the interest in proposing such a college of females is different than originally thought, I am simply suggesting the consideration of the problem of syncretism. I think it is still within topic to suggest such a consideration as it is the origin of the interest of the proposal.

thank you Phemie, those are very kind words. One of my own challenges it that I use words that I have learned within an aboriginal context…and the female spirit is reflected in our legends, stories and indeed our view of the earth. My concepts of eco-theology that looks at the inter-connectedness of nature and the Creator often cause confusion. These comments against what I have to say come from the heart and a western place that people from a western tradition are not used to hearing or they interpret it within western political or philosophical base (i.e. western feminism…) that is good cause if I just talk to people I agree with, then my own learning and my own spirit do not grow…Catholic Answers and the people in them - through their responses - always offers me the opportunity to learn how people view my words and I look forward to finding new words and expressions and or ways of explaining myself better…it`s all good.