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ProdigalSun
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This is your subjective judgmental opinion and is objectively untrue. Not agreeing with a pope on something he has not declared infallible is “NOT” disagreeing with the church. The Catholic Church teaches that adultery is a mortal sin. The Church also teaches that one can not receive communion in a state of mortal sin. How can you reconcile this fact with what you are erroneously trying to push on us.
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TMC
Guest
No Pope has pronounced infallibly on this topic, and the current Pope has the same teaching authority as previous Popes.Then by your own admission one must follow the Church. Two Popes before this one taught infallibly that one can not receive communion while being in an adulteress situation.
I’m glad you finally understand.
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TMC
Guest
No, what you are saying is what is untrue. The Church’s teachings are all authoritative, even if only a few are “infallible.” There is no authority for saying that one can dissent from non-infallible teachings and not be disagreeing with the Church. If that were true, the vast majority of the catechism would be optional, as very little of it is infallible.This is your subjective judgmental opinion and is objectively untrue. Not agreeing with a pope on something he has not declared infallible is “NOT” disagreeing with the church. The Catholic Church teaches that adultery is a mortal sin. The Church also teaches that one can not receive communion in a state of mortal sin. How can you reconcile this fact with what you are erroneously trying to push on us.
I am not trying to push anything on you. I am only pointing out that disagreeing with the Church’s teaching is dissent. Many, if not most (or nearly all) Catholics pick and choose among the Church’s teachings. Those Catholics are dissenting from the teachings they dismiss or disagree with. That is all I am saying. One cannot dismiss the teachings one does not agree with, and simply claim those teachings don’t count.
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St_Francis
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I am going to start a separate thread about “authoritative,” and how that all works.
Right now, wrt this issue, I see perennial Church teaching and statements by previous popes on one side, and this new thing all by itself on the other. To me, the changes proposed by AL cannot be resolved with the previous teachings, so I do not understand how I can assent to both what came before and AL. The weight of authority falls on the side of the previous teaching, so I go with that.
I do not say, “I disagree with AL,” because there may be something I have not thought of which reconciles the two positions, and if that were the case, then I would have no trouble accepting it.
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St_Francis
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I started the thread on authoritative stuff in the Liturgy Forum.
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Wedge_Antilles
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Those who admit confusion can’t win anyway. Many of want and seek clarity.
Yet, I’ve seen repeated ad nauseum on this board the following two themes.
- It isn’t confusing, you’re just being intentionally obtuse.
- Why is it your concern? It is intended for those it affects and the pastoral community.
That’s a great way to spread the faith. I wonder if we should treat non-Catholics who questions things the same way?
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TMC
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Let me step back and explain myself a bit, and maybe change tone a bit, also. I don’t want to minimize your difficulty with this, or to question your sincerity - you are obviously sincere. I would simply suggest that my own experience is that issues like this usually resolve with understanding that there is simply disagreement. I used to gnash my teeth over the things I think the Church gets wrong, and look for ways to tell myself that Church teaching allows my viewpoint. I realized over time that I simply disagree with the Church about some things. I would rather agree with the Church, but cannot do that as long as I sincerely believe the Church is wrong. And I can no longer pretend that there is some clever interpretation that makes the Church right without changing my strongly held beliefs. It may be that you are right, and that AL is either being misinterpreted or is inscrutable or what have you. I don’t think that is where this is going, but I certainly support your attempts to sort it out. But I really think that what is going on is that doctrine is evolving in a way you are not comfortable with, and you are going to have to figure out how to deal with that. I don’t mean that in any kind of negative or accusatory fashion, and I sincerely hope it works out in the end for you and all the faithful.
Meanwhile, I think I will probably stop talking much about AL here because I think I have brought more heat than light to the topic, and I hope that time and more elucidation from the Pope will eventually resolve all of this.
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ProdigalSun
Guest
Nicely said!
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JPUSC
Guest
Pope Francis Thanks Maltese Bishops for ‘Amoris Laetitia’ Guidelines
National Catholic Register
On behalf of Pope Francis, Cardinal Lorenzo Baldisseri has reportedly sent a letter to Malta’s bishops to thank them for their guidelines on applying the controversial Chapter 8 of the apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia (The Joy of Love).
The Maltese website Newsbook reported April 5 that the secretary general of the Synod of Bishops sent the letter of gratitude to co-signatories of the guidelines, Archbishop Charles Scicluna of Malta and Bishop Mario Grech of Gozo, but did not give any further details.
The bishops’ document, published Jan. 13 and entitled Criteria for the Application of Chapter VIII of Amoris Laetitia, drew strong criticism from some theologians, canon lawyers, and some Vatican officials who argued that it appeared to assert the primacy of conscience over the objective moral truth.
The bishops stated in the guidelines that some remarried divorcees can receive Holy Communion after a period of discernment, with an informed and enlightened conscience, and if they are “at peace with God.”
Critics said the criteria clearly contradicted previous papal teaching, the Catechism, canon law, and Vatican instruction, stressing that Church teaching clearly forbids allowing Holy Communion for remarried divorcees engaging in sexual relations without an annulment.
Some priests in Malta expressed their “deep discomfort” about their bishops’ directives which they called confusing, while other priests outside the country said they would be unable to follow the guidelines if their own bishops imposed them.
Malta’s bishops, however, insisted the criteria “follow the magisterium of the Catholic Church in the apostolic exhortation Amoris Laetitia by H.H. Pope Francis”, and they urged reading the entire document.
Last month, Cardinal Vincent Nichols of Westminster praised the bishops’ document, saying it does not start by saying “What about this rule or that rule?”
“It starts by saying if this is your position and you feel uneasy, you want to know where you stand, what you ought to be doing, then come and we’ll talk. But let’s be honest, let’s be open and let’s see where we go,” he said.
The differing interpretations of Amoris Laetitia (other bishops have interpreted it strictly in line with previous papal teaching) have led to considerable confusion in dioceses around the world, prompting four cardinals to appeal to Pope Francis for clarification.
Later this month, a group of lay academics will add their voices calling on the Holy Father to affirm a definitive interpretation of the apostolic exhortation.
However, observers say this letter, like a leaked papal memo to Argentine bishops last year, already clearly indicate which interpretation the Pope favors.
ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-francis-thanks-maltese-bishops-for-amoris-laetitia-guidelines
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Randolph
Guest
Thank you. I will advance this discussion by stating again that the confusion is clearly there. To deny its existence is just simply intellectually dishonest. People in positions of authority in the Church must deal with this confusion correctly. I pray for God’s will be done–not my will or anyone’s. I pray for the forthright and the courage of cardinals, bishops, priests and the faithful to speak up and stand up for the teachings of Christ and the Magisterium. This is not a trivial matter. Salvation of souls is also at hand. Interpretations of any authoritative teachings, or any teachings themselves, can not contradict nor undermine the teachings of Christ and the Magisterium.
Personally, I believe it will be future popes who will take the responsibility to fully correct this confusion. In the meantime, there will be arguments, fights and divisions within the Church. The damages to the Church and the loss of souls will be tremendous.
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ProdigalSun
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You are right confusion on this subject is everywhere. I also believe this will need to be straightened out by a future Pope. I pray for all those that would leave the Church ovr this. I also pray for our dear pope’s responsibilty in all this.
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Thomas_White
Guest
I believe this is correct. It is beyond serious question that there is great confusion concerning AL, with apparently no clarification forthcoming. The damage will perhaps require generations to overcome. Like many, AL has no relevance to my personal circumstances. Consequently, I for one will not let it affect my Catholic faith. I only hope that others will likewise persevere in their faith, regardless of what they think of AL.
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ProdigalSun
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JPUSC
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“If we speak explicitly about communion for the divorced and remarried,” said Archbishop Forte, reporting a joke of Pope Francis, “you do not know what a terrible mess we will make. So we won’t speak plainly, do it in a way that the premises are there, then I will draw out the conclusions.”
zonalocale.it/2016/05/03/-nessuno-si-deve-sentire-escluso-dalla-chiesa-/20471
zonalocale.it/2016/05/03/-nessuno-si-deve-sentire-escluso-dalla-chiesa-/20471
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Randolph
Guest
Was the martyrdom of St. Thomas More in vain? What exactly did the saint die for?
Were the people in authority in the Church during that time “wrong” for not advising Henry VIII that he could have gotten his conscience “informed and enlightened”, and be “at peace with God”? If so, shouldn’t the Catholic Church now need to apologize to Henry VIII for opposing his second marriage to Anne Boleyn and his subsequent marriages (6 in total)? Was it unjust of the Magisterium (more broadly for over 2,000 years up to AL) for not considering, or allowing, this option for Henry VIII?
How does this new “development” of doctrine reconcile with teachings of Christ and the Magisterium against unrepented sins of adultery, polygamy and homosexuality? Since when can one’s informed conscience along with pastoral accompaniment overrule Christ and the Magisterium? What becomes of the Catholic Church without the authority of Christ and the Magisterium?
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_Abyssinia
Guest
Fr Michael Schneider has written about the book:
cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/05/04/amoris-laetitia-accompaniment-not-divorced-remarried/
cruxnow.com/vatican/2017/05/04/amoris-laetitia-accompaniment-not-divorced-remarried/
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St_Francis
Guest
Thanks for posting this, altho tbh, he talked about allowing people to “confess” even when they couldn’t receive absolution… wouldn’t that be counseling rather than Confession?
And he also seemed to think that D&R should not receive the sacraments, and implied that AL didn’t really say that, and seemed altogether too nuanced for my taste on the issue.
OTOH, I liked that he pointed out that there was more to AL than this one issue, and that older couples should “mentor” younger couples.
In fact, at this point I think it would be good for the Catholic Church to realize that we need a lot more groups! I mean, some people complain because everyone leaves right after Mass instead spending some time in prayer, but people also do need to interact with other people and for all too many of us, the only chance we have is right after Mass.
Anyway, yes, I would like to see lots of groups, nothing fancy, no $1,000 video programs, just a basic format and people talking with each other, because we have lost so much of our cultural heritage, and because there are so many people who could really use the support.
Back in the old days, when a Catholic community was right around the Church, Catholics ran into each other all the time, all week long. Now it’s an effort because we are all spread out. I would just really like to see something simple but organized to replace our former communities.
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