A happy middle?

[CTBcin]

Have you ever seen an Anglican Use Mass? That is pretty close to EF in English

Only in videos… and yeah, it’s pretty cool. I’d like to go sometime, but there aren’t any Anglican use parishes anywhere near me.

 

[Alexandria2020]

It seems to be gaining in popularity.

is it really true? Just want to know the facts.
or is it just popular among a small minority?
(I mean the US situation of course)

 

[Alexandria2020]

was celebrated ad orientem,

that would be great. just more reverence and traditional structure such as ad orientem would be much more appreciated. also a traditional choir.

good example is St Mary of Pine Bluff’s OF Mass.

 

[LisaB]

I know that there are other things that are hotly debated, how to receive communion, etc. But speaking only of the Mass, would you settle for a middle ground?

No. Because that would mean I’d have to give up the TLM as it is, and why would I want that?

I think what you describe would be good for the Church at large, yes. But not if it replaces the TLM we have now.

 

[Alexandria2020]

No. Because that would mean I’d have to give up the TLM as it is, and why would I want that?

I think what you describe would be good for the Church at large, yes. But not if it replaces the TLM we have now.

the TLM can stay as it is.

But the OF definitely needs some kind of “reformation”. with many complaints. is this only a western situation? what do people think of the OF Mass in the East? definitely I would have to agree with people who are of the opinion that the OF feels like a Protestant service.

English OF Mass in the Philippines

English OF Mass in India (Archdiocese of Bombay)

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Until very recently, the Church was very, very cautious in introducing even acceptable novelties for these reasons (among others). A maxim of Vatican II itself, which was practically instantly forgotten says “there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing.”

These are among the most needful words that have been said in the entire Church in the past 60 years.

Have you ever seen an Anglican Use Mass? That is pretty close to EF in English

I have been to an ultra-traditionalist Anglican church (“continuing Anglican”), not in union with Rome, and that is precisely what it is like — ad orientem, communion rail, kneeling for communion, the priest even wore a biretta. Beautiful liturgy. If I were running the show, that would be the vernacular Catholic Mass.

 

[LisaB]

LisaB:

No. Because that would mean I’d have to give up the TLM as it is, and why would I want that?

I think what you describe would be good for the Church at large, yes. But not if it replaces the TLM we have now.

the TLM can stay as it is.

But the OF definitely needs some kind of “reformation”.

Then I agree.

I think the changes needed for the OF are already allowed, they just need to be enforced. Add Latin back in for as much of the ordinary as possible, ad orientem, male only altar boys, communion on the tongue at the rail at least as an option, strip the use of emhc to the bare minimum only when truly necessary, no praise and worship music, etc. When done together, all this makes a difference and will feel like the middle you are talking about. I went to such a Mass once in Oregon. It truly felt like a cross between TLM and NO.

Not sure what to do about those who like contemporary liturgy. I think everyone should have an opportunity to feel at home at Mass, and if they will feel out of place at a traditional liturgy the way I feel at a contemporary NO, that would be sad. Maybe reverent but contemporary liturgy could be an option for them like the TLM is for us.

 

[Anesti33]

Deacon, I agree, except that some options are more valid than others. The Church documents are clear, the promotion and commission of the fine arts is clear, there are clear front-runners in terms of pride of place and noble simplicity. Perhaps the crux of the matter is that the documents are vague enough that it can be endlessly argued what fits the criteria, but I think that the actual practice of the Sacred Liturgy puts those arguments to rest. We see how Msgr. Marini conducts liturgy in St. Peter’s Basilica and elsewhere the Holy Father travels. We see how Archbishops and Cardinals conduct Masses in the great Cathedrals of the world. These are examples for reverence, holiness, nobility, acceptance, and engagement, and they are meant to be imitated.

(By the way, that quote belongs to St. Augustine originally.)

 

[Peeps]

However, when they are grouped together, the question that is always asked is; “have the changes helped or hurt the Church?”

I don’t think that any changes have helped or hurt the Church, or the Protestant fellowships (“churches”–small “c”).

I think that Christianity itself, in all its ecclesial manifestations, is diminishing in numbers, at least in the U.S. and Europe. I’ve heard from both Catholic and Protestant missionary agencies that Christianity is growing in Africa.

It’s not traditions (small “t”) or their lack that is hurting the growth, both in numbers and in good works, of the Church (and “churches”)–it is our sin. Sin doesn’t enter into and take over our lives because of the “traditions” (or lack of)–according to James, it is our own lusts/desires, which lead to sin, which lead to death.

As long as we keep focusing on “traditions” instead of our sin, the Church will continue to diminish.

 

[whatistrue]

except that some options are more valid than others.

“Valid” is binary. Something is either valid or not valid.

 

[Anesti33]

Anesti33:

except that some options are more valid than others.

“Valid” is binary. Something is either valid or not valid.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

 

[whatistrue]

Yeah. More equal, more pregnant, more dead. Glad you agree.

 

[Anesti33]

So I see. It still seems unfair to impute it to Pope St. John Paul the Great, with such a provenance:

So, “in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, and in all things charity” is not of Catholic origin via Augustine, nor is it a Protestant idea originating in Meiderlin. Instead it is a quote from one of the most untrustworthy theologians in Church history: a twice-declared heretic who could not seem to unify with anybody!

 

[OraLabora]

But the OF definitely needs some kind of “reformation”.

It does not. It merely needs disciplined adherence to the rubrics.

 

[Anesti33]

Alexandria2020:

But the OF definitely needs some kind of “reformation”.

It does not. It merely needs disciplined adherence to the rubrics.

I think there is a lot of space for creative energy to be used wisely in the OF. Much of it was squandered on felt banners, tambourines, and liturgical dance. Let’s recapture the noble simplicity of the Roman Rite by applying timeless standards of Truth, Beauty, and Goodness. @OraLabora has always put himself forth as a shining example of how this can be implemented according to the mind of the Council Fathers. Among others, the Diocese of Phoenix Cathedral has a splendid Mass every Sunday on YouTube that showcases the best in sacred music, art, discipline. There are many examples, we just pray they will trickle down to rural parishes and poor communities in a way they can adapt and own.

 

[ThomasMT]

Something is either valid or not valid.

I think that what @Anesti33 may be trying to express is that one option may draw more grace than another. Both equally valid, not necessarily equally fruitful.

 

[Anesti33]

Yes, I was using wordplay and turn-of-phrase to inject humor into the discussion, and sadly it was taken wrongly by several onlookers.

I do not think it is useful to speak of “valid or invalid” in the case of liturgical options. Perhaps “suitability” would be a better spectrum scale. The Church does indeed prioritize certain modes of worship, such as singing over speaking, and Gregorian Chant over other song, and the organ over other instruments. Here’s another example: after Vatican II, the gothic chasuble experienced a resurgence in popularity. Valid/invalid? Suitable/not suitable? Perhaps many priests found it suitable for its sign value. Our newest ordained priest finds the fiddleback chasuble practical and cooler to wear, so that’s what he chooses. More suitable, a matter of taste.

 

[ThomasMT]

The Church does indeed prioritize certain modes of worship, such as singing over speaking, and Gregorian Chant over other song, and the organ over other instruments.

Excellent points.

 

[Pattylt]

If the Church was to find a middle ground for its Masses, wouldn’t that just force the two ends of the spectrum to be ignored and risking losing them?

I’ve always found the various choices of Mass types to be a benefit to worshippers with varying tastes. As long as they are licit, shouldn’t people be able to go to the church in their comfort zones? I do understand the problem of those that want one type and haven’t got a church near them that provides it, however. So, maybe the churches need to widen the various types so all can access the type they prefer?

This suggestion is kind of the opposite of what the OP was suggesting but I don’t think finding a middle ground will appease the complainers. They’ll just find new issues to complain about.

 

[whatistrue]

one option may draw more grace

I think the operative word there is “may”. I don’t believe there is a difference, but I can’t prove it. Someone else may believe there is, but also can’t prove it. So it falls under personal choice. Again (or still).