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tonyrey
Guest
sundayexpress.co.uk/news/weird/376844/It-may-be-scientifically-impossible-but-is-there-an-afterlife?utm_source=outbrain
What (if any) is your explanation?
What (if any) is your explanation?
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centurionguard
Guest
Greetings; I always weigh-in NDE stories with a plausible big grain salt without trying to be overly skeptical, still keeping an open mind while keeping the Church’s teachings in mind.
There’s so much we don’t know beyond scripture about the supernatural world which in reality is far more real than the vast illusionary world we live in confined by five primitive human senses.
Still; I’m not convinced idealized secular human science in all its loftiness and advancememts will ever be able prove life after death or for that matter even that God Himself exist without serving some alterior motive to glorify human science for its own namesake and ego.
Belief in God and Life after Death belongs to Faith alone.
As for NDE experiences? IMHO with a huge (“if”), if they are plausibly, I believe their private revelations for the the soul in question. Kinda makes me ask why someone would want to share such a personal revelation risking ridicule.
Peace
Chris
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Linux
Guest
I haven’t read the text. But if by life after death you mean going down a dark tunnel with a light at the end of it, I personally don’t agree that this is a supernatural experience.
The first factor that should be considered is what people mean by a supernatural experience. If they mean they experience the non-physical, then a light at the end of a tunnel would seem to be out of place since “light” is physical. It seems more reasonable to say they imagined a light at an end of a tunnel.
The first factor that should be considered is what people mean by a supernatural experience. If they mean they experience the non-physical, then a light at the end of a tunnel would seem to be out of place since “light” is physical. It seems more reasonable to say they imagined a light at an end of a tunnel.
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seeker_of_God
Guest
This guy has a book that I partially read recently. I had to stop, because, honestly, I didn’t believe a word of it.
First of all, he never died, to my understanding; he was simply in a coma. While in that coma, the parts of his brain that had to do with human personality were destroyed.
In the story that follows, the character of it is such that it is obvious that he is simply experiencing through the remaining portion of his brain. For instance, he experiences first a hell-like state where he had forgotten his own identity, and this place was full of primeval experience; there were unrecognizable and frightening faces arising in the dark, a constant rhythm that played in the darkness, a sense that he had been there forever, and so forth. He did not even know his own name or where he had come from — no memory of the waking world.
So, to me, it sounds like a simple experience of consciousness without that part of the brain active. He says that part is responsible for personality, and his subsequent experience is lacking any kind of “humanness” or personality.
Then, the “heavenly” part of his experience seemed rather dreamlike. He flew on “butterfly wings,” supposedly. The “source” he spoke to he called “om,” which is a Hindu word for the primordial sound of the universe and of creation. Never once did Jesus enter into it, nor was there any mention of the necessity of salvation.
So, I didn’t finish the book. There are much better things to be reading. I don’t think that his experience is truly supernatural, though.
First of all, he never died, to my understanding; he was simply in a coma. While in that coma, the parts of his brain that had to do with human personality were destroyed.
In the story that follows, the character of it is such that it is obvious that he is simply experiencing through the remaining portion of his brain. For instance, he experiences first a hell-like state where he had forgotten his own identity, and this place was full of primeval experience; there were unrecognizable and frightening faces arising in the dark, a constant rhythm that played in the darkness, a sense that he had been there forever, and so forth. He did not even know his own name or where he had come from — no memory of the waking world.
So, to me, it sounds like a simple experience of consciousness without that part of the brain active. He says that part is responsible for personality, and his subsequent experience is lacking any kind of “humanness” or personality.
Then, the “heavenly” part of his experience seemed rather dreamlike. He flew on “butterfly wings,” supposedly. The “source” he spoke to he called “om,” which is a Hindu word for the primordial sound of the universe and of creation. Never once did Jesus enter into it, nor was there any mention of the necessity of salvation.
So, I didn’t finish the book. There are much better things to be reading. I don’t think that his experience is truly supernatural, though.
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ellzeena
Guest
I did read that book and found it lacking in many aspects of credibility. I think the fact that a neurosurgeon, a person with an actual medical degree, wrote it is why Simon Schuster published it. Any other person would have had to self publish.
I’ve had an NDE. I know many others who have had them. This has been ongoing throughout human history. There is one particular NDE which is undeniable. I believe the woman’s name is Pam Reynolds. In order to reach a place deep in her brain, the doctors actually “killed” her: her temperature was taken way below hyperthermia, her blood was drained, her heart was stopped. She was clinically dead: no brain waves - flatlined. In that “state”, she saw (and later described fully) the instrument(s) used during her operation, overheard conversations (she was wearing special ear plugs that clicked, making it impossible for her to hear even had she any brain activity), and “traveled” away from the operating site. This is irrefutable. Even her physicians have testified that she got information she could not possibly have seen/heard.
I have taken the Eucharist into the hospital for almost two years. I have met people who were clinically dead and who reported to me their NDE experiences. These people have no doubt, they have no fear, and their faith is strong. I know one man who was killed in a motorcycle accident: yes, he was dead, resuscitated in the hospital and has been in a wheelchair ever since. He reports that he saw Jesus, met his grandfather and shook hands with him, was told to “go back”. Oh yes, it’s real all right. And for those who argue about brain chemistry, lack of oxygen, etc., Chris Carter has done a thorough evaluation of this and it can be found in his book, “Science and the Near Death Experience.” This is a scholarly work, he was not predisposed to “prove” anything, but he in fact did.
Why in this age are these events being so widely disseminated? It’s simply the nature of our technology at this point and the fact that God DID design us to search for facts, to look for truth, to analyze the environment and our experiences in it. It’s hard wired into our biology. Knowing there is “life” after physical death is one very good reason to work toward whatever goal God might have for each of us, and this is a matter between each of us and God, different for each one. Jesus said a man could rise from the dead and no one would believe. Isn’t that what happened? He did. There are non-believers. Perhaps God wants to get our attention because He is running out of patience. I can’t blame Him.
I’ve had an NDE. I know many others who have had them. This has been ongoing throughout human history. There is one particular NDE which is undeniable. I believe the woman’s name is Pam Reynolds. In order to reach a place deep in her brain, the doctors actually “killed” her: her temperature was taken way below hyperthermia, her blood was drained, her heart was stopped. She was clinically dead: no brain waves - flatlined. In that “state”, she saw (and later described fully) the instrument(s) used during her operation, overheard conversations (she was wearing special ear plugs that clicked, making it impossible for her to hear even had she any brain activity), and “traveled” away from the operating site. This is irrefutable. Even her physicians have testified that she got information she could not possibly have seen/heard.
I have taken the Eucharist into the hospital for almost two years. I have met people who were clinically dead and who reported to me their NDE experiences. These people have no doubt, they have no fear, and their faith is strong. I know one man who was killed in a motorcycle accident: yes, he was dead, resuscitated in the hospital and has been in a wheelchair ever since. He reports that he saw Jesus, met his grandfather and shook hands with him, was told to “go back”. Oh yes, it’s real all right. And for those who argue about brain chemistry, lack of oxygen, etc., Chris Carter has done a thorough evaluation of this and it can be found in his book, “Science and the Near Death Experience.” This is a scholarly work, he was not predisposed to “prove” anything, but he in fact did.
Why in this age are these events being so widely disseminated? It’s simply the nature of our technology at this point and the fact that God DID design us to search for facts, to look for truth, to analyze the environment and our experiences in it. It’s hard wired into our biology. Knowing there is “life” after physical death is one very good reason to work toward whatever goal God might have for each of us, and this is a matter between each of us and God, different for each one. Jesus said a man could rise from the dead and no one would believe. Isn’t that what happened? He did. There are non-believers. Perhaps God wants to get our attention because He is running out of patience. I can’t blame Him.
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tonyrey
Guest
Then why did Jesus give reasons why we should believe?
It is courageous and all the more commendable to share our experiences for believing in life after death if we risk ridicule by doing so…As for NDE experiences? IMHO with a huge (“if”), if they are plausibly, I believe their private revelations for the the soul in question. Kinda makes me ask why someone would want to share such a personal revelation risking ridicule.
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tonyrey
Guest
All words used to describe supernatural events are inadequate as the Evangelists quickly discovered. Does that invalidate their testimony?
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tonyrey
Guest
You are entitled to your opinion but the sheer number of cases requires explanation and you need to explain how brain activity explains all mental experiences…
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tonyrey
Guest
Those who are determined not to believe will continue to reject whatever evidence is produced. Whatever faith they may have is undoubtedly negative in at least one respect…
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Linux
Guest
I am not sure I understand what you mean. But I think that all true supernatural experiences (in so far as the source is supernatural in nature) cannot be in and of themselves direct experiences of the supernatural; but rather they are physical analogies of transcendent realities. This is to say that it is possible that a supernatural entity could use our physical experiences, as they are present in our memories, as ingredients to form some kind of vision communicating some kind meaning or command. But we cannot directly experience a supernatural reality as it truly is in itself except through the medium of our physical experiences, and that is simply because the supernatural is non-physical. In the Bible we see physical descriptions of angels, not non-physical descriptions of angels.
I am not saying that the source cannot be supernatural. But science cannot determine that a physical analogy of the supernatural is in fact supernatural, because the analogies by themselves are not supernatural even if the cause of it is.
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seeker_of_God
Guest
Are you sure you read my post? I believe in the possibility of NDE. I’m simply replying to this case, which I do not believe was authentic.
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seeker_of_God
Guest
Unfortunately not undeniable. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds_case#Summary_of_Woerlee.27s_Criticism
That’s wonderful though about the experiences you’ve had. I do believe that NDEs are possible, but I also think we have to be critical and discern whether any particular case is true or not.
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The_Revelator
Guest
The only thing that this story is irrefutable proof of, is that people believe what they want to believe. The Pam Reynolds story could just as easily be used as undeniable proof that NDE’s are simply natural neurological phenomena, and in no way support the concept of life after death.
ALL of the “unexplainable” events that Pam Reynolds reported occurred either before her neurological activity stopped, or after it had resumed. She reported absolutely nothing during the time that her brain activity had actually ceased. This would, to any logical observer, indicate that these phenomena require a live and functioning brain, and that absent such a brain we experience nothing.
Those my friends are the facts, which you will undoubtedly however, deny and ignore. But that’s your choice. Like I said, the real undeniable truth is that people believe what they want to believe, and no amount of evidence or logic can change that.
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cornbread_r2
Guest
Three neuroscientists’ opinions on Dr. Alexander’s experience:
Colin Blakemore
Sam Harris
Steven Novella
A skeptical critique of NDEs in general
A fairly comprehensive resource on NDE/OBEs
Colin Blakemore
Sam Harris
Steven Novella
A skeptical critique of NDEs in general
A fairly comprehensive resource on NDE/OBEs
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tonyrey
Guest
seeker of God;10366431.You are entitled to your opinion but the sheer number of cases requires explanation and you need to explain how brain activity explains all mental experiences… [/QUOTE said:
A possibility is hardly a reason for not explaining how brain activity explains such experiences…
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tonyrey
Guest
It is noteworthy that all your “authorities” are atheists who have a vested interest…
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tonyrey
Guest
The undeniable truth, my friend, is that people also don’t believe what they don’t want to believe, and no amount of evidence or logic can change that… A two-edged sword!
Perhaps you would like to explain how you know that “absent such a brain we experience nothing”…
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tonyrey
Guest
What is undeniable?
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The_Revelator
Guest
This is indeed an undeniable truth.
This statement is a case of selective bias, you read into my statement something that was not there. I did not state that I know that “absent such a brain we experience nothing”… What I actually said was…This would, to any logical observer, indicate that these phenomena require a live and functioning brain, and that absent such a brain we experience nothing.
I did not say that we could know, I said that it would indicate this to a logical observer. But as with NDE’s, people see what they want to see. Thank you for illustrating my point.
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Megan7
Guest
Thanks for the link.
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