A Historical Dare to Protestants

[nsper7]

To all those who deny that the “Roman Catholic Church” (and/or Eastern Orthodox) is the Church founded by Christ, then I have a little dare for you. Prove from Scripture and history that your denomination is the one founded by Christ.

I say use ‘history’ because Scripture is vague enough that anyone, even us evil old Papists (or those in the process of converting to Papism), could claim that their doctrines match Scripture (after all, don’t most of those tens of thousands of Protestant denominations claim that they are each based on Scripture).

For me, it was history that won me over to the Catholic Church. No other group (save the Eastern Orthodox) can trace their history as far as back as the Catholic Church. That is a key point, because unless you can somehow connect your denomination chronologically to the Apostles, then you are claiming that there was a period of time where there was no ‘true Church’ and this sort of violates that whole gates of Hell prevailing against the Church thingy. Yeah, not good.

So, fire away.

 

[Hisalone]

To all those who deny that the “Roman Catholic Church” (and/or Eastern Orthodox) is the Church founded by Christ, then I have a little dare for you. Prove from Scripture and history that your denomination is the one founded by Christ.

I say use ‘history’ because Scripture is vague enough that anyone, even us evil old Papists (or those in the process of converting to Papism), could claim that their doctrines match Scripture (after all, don’t most of those tens of thousands of Protestant denominations claim that they are each based on Scripture).

For me, it was history that won me over to the Catholic Church. No other group (save the Eastern Orthodox) can trace their history as far as back as the Catholic Church. That is a key point, because unless you can somehow connect your denomination chronologically to the Apostles, then you are claiming that there was a period of time where there was no ‘true Church’ and this sort of violates that whole gates of Hell prevailing against the Church thingy. Yeah, not good.

So, fire away.

It is more important to find God.
Does your church teach you to hear Gods voice?
Do not look for a church Look for God.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

It is more important to find God.
Does your church teach you to hear Gods voice?
Do not look for a church Look for God.

I think the church is just as important as our mother. I think it’s purposeful that the church - the bride of Christ - is likened as the new Eve. Churchless spirituality is hopeless.

 

[Eucharisted]

He who shuns the Church, shuns Christ Jesus. And what did Jesus say of Himself? “I and the Father are one.” So he who finds Christ has found God, and he who finds the Church has found Christ. For in His Word God tell us that the Church of Christ is the Body of Christ.

 

[With_Questions]

To all those who deny that the “Roman Catholic Church” (and/or Eastern Orthodox) is the Church founded by Christ, then I have a little dare for you. Prove from Scripture and history that your denomination is the one founded by Christ.

I say use ‘history’ because Scripture is vague enough that anyone, even us evil old Papists (or those in the process of converting to Papism), could claim that their doctrines match Scripture (after all, don’t most of those tens of thousands of Protestant denominations claim that they are each based on Scripture).

For me, it was history that won me over to the Catholic Church. No other group (save the Eastern Orthodox) can trace their history as far as back as the Catholic Church. That is a key point, because unless you can somehow connect your denomination chronologically to the Apostles, then you are claiming that there was a period of time where there was no ‘true Church’ and this sort of violates that whole gates of Hell prevailing against the Church thingy. Yeah, not good.

So, fire away.

You are assuming that the ‘true church’ must be one and only one denomination. Why should I make this assumption?

But even if I were to make this assumption you can not prove from Scripture and history that you are the one true church.

 

[Eucharisted]

One God
One Creation
One Messiah
One Redemption
One Eucharist
One Sacrifice
One Church
One Mother

 

[nsper7]

It is more important to find God.
Does your church teach you to hear Gods voice?
Do not look for a church Look for God.

What exactly does that mean? We have many people who claim to hear God’s voice (not counting your schizophrenics), yet they all fervently believe in different things and it ends up boiling down to whatever you want.

Also, Scripture discusses the importance of fellowship and the Body of Christ (the Church). To deny either one is to deny Scripture.

So, why do you think that the church you attend is correct? How do you know God was leading you there?

You are assuming that the ‘true church’ must be one and only one denomination. Why should I make this assumption?

But even if I were to make this assumption you can not prove from Scripture and history that you are the one true church.

Well, the answer to why the ‘true Church’ should be united is very simple. Christ prayed that his followers would be united as the Father and the Son are. Unless you are going to say the Father and the Son are thousands of separate entities, then should not the true Church (Christ’s followers) be so united?

Are you willing to agree that the Catholic Church is the first Church? If so, when did it go off-track and need assistance from new denominations (all man-made I might add: Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Cousin Billy-Bob down the road)?

 

[jkarp]

You are assuming that the ‘true church’ must be one and only one denomination. Why should I make this assumption?

Take your statement to the next logical level: do you honestly believe that Christ would have instituted a “Church” wherein none of the member denominations agree with each other? And when a person disagrees with something a denomination teaches, he/she is able to just start another?

But even if I were to make this assumption you can not prove from Scripture and history that you are the one true church.

Actually it is quite simple: Matthew 16 - Christ establishes His Church and makes Simon Peter its head (i.e. the first pope). Now historically, the Catholic Church can trace the lineage of Bishops back to the apostles and more specifically, the lineage of the Bishop of Rome (i.e. the pope) all the way back to Peter.

 

[With_Questions]

Well, the answer to why the ‘true Church’ should be united is very simple. Christ prayed that his followers would be united as the Father and the Son are. Unless you are going to say the Father and the Son are thousands of separate entities, then should not the true Church (Christ’s followers) be so united?

I didn’t ask whether I should accept that the one true Church should be united. I asked why I should accept one and only one denomination as the one true church. There is a subtle difference between these two questions.

Are you willing to agree that the Catholic Church is the first Church? If so, when did it go off-track and need assistance from new denominations (all man-made I might add: Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Cousin Billy-Bob down the road)?

Well the Orthodox also claim to be the one true church.

So even if I were to accept the proposition that there must be one true church, I would not be able to figure out who it is. That is a conundrum. I would be left with the senseless proposition that one denomination must be the one true church but it is impossible to determine with 100% certainty what that denomination is.

And that neglects groups like Polish Catholic, Sedevacantist Catholic and others that I might be unaware of that claim to be the one true church.

 

[nsper7]

I didn’t ask whether I should accept that the one true Church should be united. I asked why I should accept one denomination as the one true church. There is a subtle difference between thse two questions.

How can you be united if you are claiming allegiance to different organization (i.e. Baptists, Presbyterians, etc.)? That’ is like saying the USA and CSA were actually united during the Civil War.

The various Protestant denominations are not united in doctrine, worship or fellowship, so how can they all be fulfilling Christ’s desire for unity?

Well the Orthodox also claim to be the one true church.

So even if I were to accept the proposition that there must be one true church, I would not be able to figure out who it is. That is a conundrum. I would be left with the senseless proposition that one denomination must be the one true church but it is impossible to determine with 100% certainty what that denomination is.

And that neglects groups like Polish Catholic, Sedevacantist Catholic and others that I might be unaware of that claim to be the one true church.

The Orthodox are a trick group to address. After all, like the Catholic Church, they too have the history. But in the end, who has Rome and Successor to St. Peter?

The Polish Catholics, sedevacantists, Old Catholics all split away from the Catholic Church at some point. In many ways, one could argue that they too are Protestants, but that is a different argue. Suffice it to say, they split from the Catholic Church.

 

[John1]

There are several that things that the bible teaches on this that I find very interesting. When Jesus prays for the belivers (Matthew 17:20-21) he prays for everyone who comes to believe in Him through the message of the Apostles. Every Christian, no matter which rite of the Catholic church they belong, no matter which Orthodox church they belong to, and no matter which Protestant church they belong to, all came to believe in Jesus through the messages of His Apostles. Also in that bible passage Christ expresses his desire that we are all one with Himself and the Father. In 1 Corinthians 1:10 St. Paul urges unity for the early Christians and warns them against dividing with one saying "I follow Paul, another saying “I follow Peter”, another saying “I follow Apollos”, and yet another say “I follow Christ”. Then (get this) St. Paul reminds them that only Jesus was crucified for them and that they were all baptized into the name of Christ. The Catholic Church refers to the Protestants as “separated brethren”, this in itself should be ample proof to the OP that, even though there are divisions, the Protestants are part of the Body of Christ, which is the Church that Jesus founded and is the Head.

 

[With_Questions]

How can you be united if you are claiming allegiance to different organization (i.e. Baptists, Presbyterians, etc.)? That’ is like saying the USA and CSA were actually united during the Civil War.

The various Protestant denominations are not united in doctrine, worship or fellowship, so how can they all be fulfilling Christ’s desire for unity?

I think you are not getting the subtle difference in what I am asking.

It is possible that (1) the organizational and theological divisions we see in the church of Jesus Christ are outside of God’s design of the church and (2) that not one denomination that exists today is exclusively the church of Jesus Christ.

In other words, just because Protestants are divided and this division is outside of the design of Christ, it does not necessarily follow that one and only one denomination (including you) is exclusively the church.

The Orthodox are a trick group to address. After all, like the Catholic Church, they too have the history. But in the end, who has Rome and Successor to St. Peter?

But hypothetically, if I were to accept for the moment that one and only one denomination must be the “one true church”, why would I have to adopt your particular assumptions on how this “one true church” is to be identified. To be fair, I would have to start with 0 assumptions, then listen to both you and the Orthodox and give you both equal weight.

From what I have heard from both of you, in this hypothetical, I could not identify with 100% certainty which one of you is the one true church and which one of you is of lesser status.

This conundrum makes no sense.

The Polish Catholics, sedevacantists, Old Catholics all split away from the Catholic Church at some point. In many ways, one could argue that they too are Protestants, but that is a different argue. Suffice it to say, they split from the Catholic Church.

But the point being, if I were to conclude that there must be one true church, I would at the very least have to consider these groups and not start with any assumptions. Just because you are in the majority, it does not necessarily follow that you are correct and they are wrong.

Now, even if I were (under this hypothetical) were to eliminate these groups, I am still stuck with the conundrum of you versus the Orthodox.

 

[Graubo3]

You are assuming that the ‘true church’ must be one and only one denomination.

How can one be a denomination of itself?

But even if I were to make this assumption you can not prove from Scripture and history that you are the one true church.

nsper7,

it was the history that also aided in my reversion to the Faith. Luke is pretty explicit in Acts where one can see the spiritual Church as well as the visible Church. One argument against history would be that it is written by Catholics, but who else could write it? Anybody have any other Christian sources? Jewish Josephus aided early ecclesiologist.

Welcome home nsper7!

Peace, Graubo

 

[Chancellare]

But even if I were to make this assumption you can not prove from Scripture and history that you are the one true church.

Before you can make that challenge, you have to disprove from Scriptures such that Christ did not establish the one Church and Peter was not the first Pope. Failing that, you have nothing to stand on.

 

[Karen1960]

You are assuming that the ‘true church’ must be one and only one denomination. Why should I make this assumption?

But even if I were to make this assumption you can not prove from Scripture and history that you are the one true church.

ah, it the entire NT enough for you?
Over and over it is repeated that Jesus gave us The Church. He did not give a demonation. His Church, The Holy Catholic Church, where He is the head and we are the body.

 

[MrS]

You are assuming that the ‘true church’ must be one and only one denomination. Why should I make this assumption?

But even if I were to make this assumption you can not prove from Scripture and history that you are the one true church.

Not an assumption at all…

“… upon this rock I will build my church…”

I = Christ. He did it. Any other group, regardless of their good intentions, was started by a man… or woman. Thus not the Truth.

My = His possession. Since Truth is unchangeable, any other group which adds, detracts, or changes that which was taught from the beginning… is not the Truth

Church = singular form. Christ uses the word for the first time in the New Testament. No longer is the word temple held in the highest esteem. Only the “group” intended to be of one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism can fully be part of the Church. Thus, all the denominiations that followed are not the Church.

Agreed that the Body of Christ includes all who have Trinitarian Baptism… but rejection of the other principles of Christ’s Church leaves one in the family, perhaps, but living in the back yard outside the house. - The Catholic Church.

The most evident of this is the Orthodox with their rejection of the prime among equals… the Pope.

The next most evident would be the Lutherans, Calvins etc who chose to live outside during the Reformation.

The others, like the Baptists, Pentacostals, Methodists etc are simply more of the many examples of man’s insubordination.

.

 

[Hisalone]

I think the church is just as important as our mother. I think it’s purposeful that the church - the bride of Christ - is likened as the new Eve. Churchless spirituality is hopeless.

Jer 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

 

[Hisalone]

He who shuns the Church, shuns Christ Jesus. And what did Jesus say of Himself? “I and the Father are one.” So he who finds Christ has found God, and he who finds the Church has found Christ. For in His Word God tell us that the Church of Christ is the Body of Christ.

Jer31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

 

[Hisalone]

You are assuming that the ‘true church’ must be one and only one denomination. Why should I make this assumption?

But even if I were to make this assumption you can not prove from Scripture and history that you are the one true church.

The word church is not in the bible it has been translated erroneously thus the misconception Cahtolics have.

 

[Hisalone]

What exactly does that mean? We have many people who claim to hear God’s voice (not counting your schizophrenics), yet they all fervently believe in different things and it ends up boiling down to whatever you want.

Also, Scripture discusses the importance of fellowship and the Body of Christ (the Church). To deny either one is to deny Scripture.

So, why do you think that the church you attend is correct? How do you know God was leading you there?

Well, the answer to why the ‘true Church’ should be united is very simple. Christ prayed that his followers would be united as the Father and the Son are. Unless you are going to say the Father and the Son are thousands of separate entities, then should not the true Church (Christ’s followers) be so united?

Are you willing to agree that the Catholic Church is the first Church? If so, when did it go off-track and need assistance from new denominations (all man-made I might add: Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Cousin Billy-Bob down the road)?

Jer 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."