A hypothetical in regards to salvation

[Lapey]

The second reason that I can think of is that this individual in question has not met the requirements to receive eternal life through Jesus Christ. In other words he has not done enough. If that is the case, then please tell me what else he has to do in order to receive the gift of eternal life.

As I stated before, if all of the statements you made describing the situation are assumed to be sincere, there is nothing else required.

If he had not died of said heart attack, and all assumed conditions were sincere, the good works would be a result of the faith in Christ and His good news! It would lead to the bearing of good fruit. The tree makes the fruit, the fruit does not make the tree.

If an apple tree lives its full life it will bear good fruit, if it is a fertile tree. However, if a fertile tree dies a premature death because the evil landowner cuts it down, is it not still a fertile tree?

 

[NotTooSmart]

As I stated before, if all of the statements you made describing the situation are assumed to be sincere, there is nothing else required.

If he had not died of said heart attack, and all assumed conditions were sincere, the good works would be a result of the faith in Christ and His good news! It would lead to the bearing of good fruit. The tree makes the fruit, the fruit does not make the tree.

If an apple tree lives its full life it will bear good fruit, if it is a fertile tree. However, if a fertile tree dies a premature death because the evil landowner cuts it down, is it not still a fertile tree?

Hi Lapey.

Somehow I missed your previous post. Thank you for responding.

I like your answer(s) very much. And I agree with them (surprise, surprise). Now I don’t know whether other Catholics agree with them but whatever. Oh, and you are expressing yourself in a language that I understand.:clapping::clapping:

 

[Lapey]

Hi Lapey.

Somehow I missed your previous post. Thank you for responding.

I like your answer(s) very much. And I agree with them (surprise, surprise). Now I don’t know whether other Catholics agree with them but whatever. Oh, and you are expressing yourself in a language that I understand.:clapping::clapping:

Cool, we agree!!!

This is what the Catholic Church teaches. The faith of Jesus in the Father and His plan allows us to receive the grace of salvation that Christ won for us. Our faith in Christ, if “un dead” (little reference to James, sorry) shall bear the fruit of good works, because of the commandment of love not because of the good works.

I am to be ordained a Deacon next year (Good Lord willing) and unless my professors are completely wrong, this is my understanding.

 

[Gem]

I think you and 1ke actually agree.

You are right that we’re saying “you can’t know the sincerity of the man”; only God does. So if you mean to say, “assume GOD finds his faith sincere”, then yes, we, as Catholics, would normally and rationally, with hope, believe that this man would be saved. But GOD is the judge - of each and every one of us. We are taught right from wrong, and we judge actions, but we don’t judge souls.

Also, your temptation to believe that Catholics say God saves us “if He feels like it” is actually close to the truth. And I think this is the major mindset difference between Catholics and many other Christians. There is no perfect sequence of actions involving declarations of faith or completion of actions which will 100% ensure anyone goes to heaven through purgatory or otherwise. We believe in Christ and his sacrifice of Himself for us. We become baptized and receive the Spirit. We repent of our sins and maintain, through Confession, sanctifying grace in our souls. We serve the poor and follow God’s commandments. But in the end, only God will judge our faith and reward our works - as He sees fit, according to our hearts. He is the Just One. We are the sheep.

Per your question, as 1ke said, “We cannot know.”

 

[NotTooSmart]

Also, your temptation to believe that Catholics say God saves us “if He feels like it” is actually close to the truth.

Follow on question then.

Does God have a consistent, unchanging answer to the question “What must I do to be saved”? Or does God sort of make it up as he goes along?

Or is it possible that we might come to God when God is having a bad day in heaven and we find ourselves in hell because of it? Too bad we didn’t hit God on another day when He was in a better mood, then we would have eternal life. This may sound like an absurd question, but to me it seems possible if the answer is that God saves us “if He feels like it”.

Now if God does have a consistent, unchangeable answer to this question, has He revealed it to man. Or is it just up to our best guess to try to figure out; and if we get it wrong; well we are out of luck?

If he has revealed it to us, then what is it…particularly pertaining to this hypothetical.

In other words, it is one thing for me to say I don’t know whether someone is saved because ultimately I don’t know what is in the heart of a person. It is another thing for me to say I don’t know whether someone is saved because I don’t believe God has revealed to man how it is we are to be saved.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Oh one more thing that I hope the use of my hypothetical makes clear.

I am not asking what (if anything) you must do in order to keep (or not lose) your salvation. Although this is an important question in its own right, that is not what I am asking.

I realize that the man in this hypothetical might the next day commit an axe murder or masturbate and thus (per Catholicism) commit a mortal sin and lose his salvation. I am not addressing this however.

Just to make this clear so it is not a point of confusion.

 

[Gem]

In other words, it is one thing for me to say I don’t know whether someone is saved because ultimately I don’t know what is in the heart of a person. .

This is what I’m saying. We don’t know and we don’t/can’t judge.

But God has revealed to us all that we need to know to be saved. It is everything in the Scripture and Tradition of the Catholic Church. When we are members in good standing (maintain sactifying grace on our souls) we are part of Christ’s Body and saved. But must each individual in every case do every last thing? No, God is not bound by His commandments. We are to follow them, not necessarily Him. God saves who He wills (including some of those ignorant of His commandments). But God is also unchanging and eternal. He does not have moods (human attributions of emotion not withstanding). He exists outisde of time. He has no “bad days”. So there is no “hit or miss” or “luck” involved in our salvation, only mercy.

 

[NotTooSmart]

This is what I’m saying. We don’t know and we don’t/can’t judge.

But God has revealed to us all that we need to know to be saved. It is everything in the Scripture and Tradition of the Catholic Church. When we are members in good standing (maintain sactifying grace on our souls) we are part of Christ’s Body and saved. But must each individual in every case do every last thing? No, God is not bound by His commandments. We are to follow them, not necessarily Him. God saves who He wills (including some of those ignorant of His commandments). But God is also unchanging and eternal. He does not have moods (human attributions of emotion not withstanding). He exists outisde of time. He has no “bad days”. So there is no “hit or miss” or “luck” involved in our salvation, only mercy.

So now I am more confused.

Is the reason why you don’t know this guy has eternal life when he dies because (let me word this right).

God has revealed to us that we must keep all of Scripture and all of Catholic church tradition in order to be saved.

This man (obviously) has not done this.

But God might be merciful to him anyway. Now He might not; but then again He might, who knows.

So we therefore do not know if he is saved.

 

[Lapey]

So now I am more confused.

Is the reason why you don’t know this guy has eternal life when he dies because (let me word this right).

God has revealed to us that we must keep all of Scripture and all of Catholic church tradition in order to be saved.

This man (obviously) has not done this.

But God might be merciful to him anyway. Now He might not; but then again He might, who knows.

So we therefore do not know if he is saved.

Me too, and I am Catholic!!!

 

[Gem]

So now I am more confused.

Is the reason why you don’t know this guy has eternal life when he dies because (let me word this right).

God has revealed to us that we must keep all of Scripture and all of Catholic church tradition in order to be saved.

This man (obviously) has not done this.

But God might be merciful to him anyway. Now He might not; but then again He might, who knows.

So we therefore do not know if he is saved.

Exactly.

But why does it matter if we know, with absolute certainly, whether he is saved or not? Is this not for God? Isn’t the fact that we don’t know (though we have the good hope) whether we are saved or not a good thing for us spiritually?

Let’s say your man knows he is saved. Would he then not “slack off” a bit? “Oh, it’s just a ‘small sin’. God still loves me.” Wouldn’t he, maybe just a little, presume upon the mercy of the Lord? Wouldn’t this behavior turn his heart towards himself and away from the God, risking, in actuality, the very salvation which he thought was assured?

We are called to be perfect. Of course, we can’t be. But it’s better for us, as people and as improving spiritual beings, to recognize that, to acknowledge that we need the Lord’s forgiveness as we continue to grow closer to Him, and to rely on and hope in His mercy, while not having it in our pocket, as we “endure until the end” (Mat. 10:22).

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I am posing this hypothetical in order to understand to the best of my ability what is the Catholic answer to the question “What must I do to be saved”. I find in my mind hypotheticals can help me drill into answers.

As usual I am not here to debate, just learn and evaluate. I might ask silly questions if I am not getting something though.

Let us suppose there is a man totally uneducated in the things of God alone in a hotel room who stumbles upon a Bible (we will call it a Catholic Bible). He begins to read the gospel concerning Jesus Christ and is somehow touched by the account of his life, death, and subsequent resurrection.

He gets to the part where he reads about the thief on the cross asking Jesus to remember Him when He comes into His kingdom and he also is moved to ask Jesus the same for himself. He remembers much of the wrong that he has done in his life and ask Jesus to forgive him of what he has done wrong.

That night he dies of a heart attack. He is not baptized and has not done any particularly good thing since that prayer. Neither has he done any particularly sinful thing.

*Assuming he is sincere in his prayer.
*

My question is what is the eternal destination of this man. Please ignore purgatory for now because I know those who are in purgatory per Catholicism eventually go to heaven.

Is his eternal destiny heaven or is he still without the Lord. If his eternal destiny is hell, please indicate what else this man should have done in order for him to be with Christ before he died.

Oh one more possibility. If your answer is “I don’t know” please tell me what information I may have omitted from this hypothetical. Perhaps I am being ambiguous here.and I should clarify my hypothetical.

Baptism of desire, or Baptism by blood both can be saved at the point of death. The good thief in recognizing Jesus Christ, is promised heaven by baptism of blood. The uneducated man by desire, which brought faith can be saved from his repentance just before his death. Now hypothetically, if the man survived the heart attack, should seek out Jesus and get baptised so that all sin can be washed and enter into the Kingdom of God.

God is always with the poor and uneducated and sends his angels to minister to them both in physical and spiritual form. Now if this were a rich man and educated we may be talking about a different scenario.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Exactly.

But why does it matter if we know, with absolute certainly, whether he is saved or not? Is this not for God? Isn’t the fact that we don’t know (though we have the good hope) whether we are saved or not a good thing for us spiritually?

Let’s say your man knows he is saved. Would he then not “slack off” a bit? “Oh, it’s just a ‘small sin’. God still loves me.” Wouldn’t he, maybe just a little, presume upon the mercy of the Lord? Wouldn’t this behavior turn his heart towards himself and away from the God, risking, in actuality, the very salvation which he thought was assured?

We are called to be perfect. Of course, we can’t be. But it’s better for us, as people and as improving spiritual beings, to recognize that, to acknowledge that we need the Lord’s forgiveness as we continue to grow closer to Him, and to rely on and hope in His mercy, while not having it in our pocket, as we “endure until the end” (Mat. 10:22).

So let me summarize.

Per Catholicism (or your understanding of Catholicism anyway which may or may not be correct).

What we must do for salvation is

• Keep all of the new testament and all of church tradition

Now nobody does this perfectly so…

You do the best you can and hope for the best.

 

[Gem]

Yes.

If you’d like a more thorough explanation, complete with scriptural references, please read this page. It is approved by the Church.

catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

God bless,
Gem

 

[NotTooSmart]

Yes.

If you’d like a more thorough explanation, complete with scriptural references, please read this page. It is approved by the Church.

catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp

God bless,
Gem

But it seems to me that page is really addressing the issue of “Eternal Security”.

While that may or may not be important, it is not what I am really asking.

I am not asking what a person has to do (if anything) to keep his salvation (or not lose his salvation as it were).

I am asking how you receive salvation in the first place.

Boy this seems like pulling teeth for some of you anyway.

 

[NotTooSmart]

God is always with the poor and uneducated and sends his angels to minister to them both in physical and spiritual form. Now if this were a rich man and educated we may be talking about a different scenario.

So you are saying the rules are different depending on how much money or education you have.

In the hypothetical the only thing I am assuming is that the person is quite ignorant of Jesus Christ and is reading about him for the first time.

So is what you are saying the outcome might be different depending on the amount of education and / or wealth this individual may or may not have?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

So you are saying the rules are different depending on how much money or education you have.

In the hypothetical the only thing I am assuming is that the person is quite ignorant of Jesus Christ and is reading about him for the first time.

So is what you are saying the outcome might be different depending on the amount of education and / or wealth this individual may or may not have?

Never did I say such a thing, quit the contrary; We are dealing with the hypothetical at one who came to have a disposition of faith who could not read, yet your hypothetical conflicts because the illiterate man came to faith by reading about Jesus in the bible? So lets grant that he looked at pictures in a bible and came to the dispostion of faith and then immediately died. Do I have your hypothetical correct? Then you compared the man to the good thief on the cross. From this take, the desire of baptism, or the baptism by blood comes into the picture where by both are warranted as grace from heaven but only by the mercy of God.

Now if the person was a rich man educated, he would have gained a knowledge of the Truth and may have rejected it or accepted it at a great price sometimes at the cost of loosing all his possessions. To conclude I have not stated anything formally, because we are dealing with a hypothetical without much details of the persons disposition to faith in God. Although the poor and uneducated are protected and blessed by God spiritually.

 

[Gem]

But it seems to me that page is really addressing the issue of “Eternal Security”.

While that may or may not be important, it is not what I am really asking.

I am not asking what a person has to do (if anything) to keep his salvation (or not lose his salvation as it were).

I am asking how you receive salvation in the first place.

Boy this seems like pulling teeth for some of you anyway.

I realize you’re making a distinction between first receiving salvation and keeping it, but there is no difference because no one actually receives salvation until they die. There is no such thing as being “saved” (being literally, eternally in the divine presence of God) in this world. We live this life in preparation for a life with God (salvation). Some people’s preparations are longer than others. And some people live more of their lives close to God than others. But, as the page said, salvation is a process in this life, not an event. It’s only given to you at the point you die in a state of grace.

 

[greggy53]

So let me summarize.

Per Catholicism (or your understanding of Catholicism anyway which may or may not be correct).

What we must do for salvation is

• Keep all of the new testament and all of church tradition

Now nobody does this perfectly so…

You do the best you can and hope for the best.

Salvation is a process, not a one time event. God takes into consideration when and where we are at. We don’t just hope for the best. We cling to Jesus and trust in his mercy. It is our knowledge and understanding of Christianity, and the one Church that Jesus established that is definitely correct. No guess work needed.

 

[NotTooSmart]

I realize you’re making a distinction between first receiving salvation and keeping it, but there is no difference because no one actually receives salvation until they die. There is no such thing as being “saved” (being literally, eternally in the divine presence of God) in this world. We live this life in preparation for a life with God (salvation). Some people’s preparations are longer than others. And some people live more of their lives close to God than others. But, as the page said, salvation is a process in this life, not an event. It’s only given to you at the point you die in a state of grace.

Oh…maybe then the issue is that you as a Catholic use words differently than I do.

So for now, let us bypass what is the correct meaning of salvation.

Now I have heard from Catholic sources that “I have been saved, I am being saved, I will be saved”. So it is my understanding that per Catholicism all three senses are valid. But anyway.

Let us bypass that and use maybe more neutral concepts.

Logically Christianity must have a starting point in time for each one of us.

Prior to this starting point in time, were we to die, per orthodox Christian standards we would be in hell away from the presence of Christ.

There is a point in time for each of us where our Christian life begins. If we were do die at that point in time we would be in the presence of Christ in heaven (ignoring purgatory for now). This is just pure, plain logic.

Now I in my tradition call this receiving the gift of salvation. If you call this something else, then use your word for it. I am less interested in what word you use (for now) as to how you get to this point.

What I hoped this hypothetical would do would be to hone in on the issue of what I as an individual must (not optional) do to receive the gift of eternal life from our Lord Jesus.

The reason why this interests me is I have heard it stated that Catholicism is not Christian because they do not believe in “faith alone”. OK.

The follow on question in my mind is whether “faith alone” is essential.

Here I have an analogy concerning the difference between knowing how to drive a car and knowing how an automobile works. From what I have read, much of the traditional Catholic/Protestant disagreement on faith alone at least in my mind reduces to a disagreement on how the automobile works. Although this is important, in my mind this is not essential. What is essential in my mind is that we agree how to get in the car, turn it on, and make it run. That is what I hoped my hypothetical would clarify in my mind.

Now from what I have read from Catholic apologists like Dave Armstrong is that we agree on how to get into a car and make it run (get the car going). The disagreement is on how the car works. At least that is my impression. Now I can live with disagreeing on how the car works. I am not sure I know that much on how cars work anyway.

However, if I were to base my impression on some answers here, I would have to question whether we have a fundamental disagreement on how to get the car going. That would be troubling. But who knows.

Oh…and one more thing.

The other thing that I wanted to do with this hypothetical was to bypass the issue of baptismal regeneration. Now I am not sure I believe in it myself…but…from what I have read from Catholic sources you throw in this little thing called Baptism of Desire.

Now what Baptism of Desire reads to me is that if there is a time gap (and there always is unless you are in the early church in the book of Acts where the baptized immediately…maybe it should be that way more often) between (1) the point in time in which a believer puts his faith in Christ and (2) the point in time in which a believer is baptized; the earlier point in time is where the believer really receives the gift of eternal life. And since there almost always is a time gap between the two events, the implications are…

Anyway, because of Baptism of Desire, I am apt to put the issue of Baptism into “how the car works” as opposed to “how do you get the car going”.

I hope I am clearer on this (which I probably am not but anyway).

 

[NotTooSmart]

Salvation is a process, not a one time event. God takes into consideration when and where we are at. We don’t just hope for the best. We cling to Jesus and trust in his mercy. It is our knowledge and understanding of Christianity, and the one Church that Jesus established that is definitely correct. No guess work needed.

See previous post. I want to somehow eliminate from this conversation different theological meanings for the word salvation and focus instead on the question on how exactly do you get started in this thing called Christianity…to the point of where if you died at that point in time you would be in heaven (neglecting purgatory) to be with Christ.