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Agatha813
Guest
I think you managed to stay very classy. Certainly a lot better than how I would’ve handled it, I start to get irritated when people take “no” for an answer. I definitely need to read up and compile better answers. 
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PRmerger
Guest
Just some friendly advice, Agatha: unless you are very well catechized in the Catholic faith I would be very wary of entering into a discussion with JWs. They are very, very adept at what they do, and they almost salivate (an exaggeration, yes) at the thought of engaging a Catholic in dialogue. For most of us are very poorly catechized, and one question from them that says, “Doesn’t the Bible say this____, and don’t you Catholics do this _____ that contradicts the Bible?” and some Catholics may lose their faith!I think you managed to stay very classy. Certainly a lot better than how I would’ve handled it, I start to get irritated when people take “no” for an answer. I definitely need to read up and compile better answers.
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Porknpie
Guest
PRmerger (+others) -
IYHO, what are the likely 3 or 4 questions that a JW would ask a Catholic?
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PRmerger
Guest
I think the top one would be “Where is the Trinity in the Bible”, and their showing verses that do not support the Trinity (as they see it).
And the other one would be “Where did Jesus say he was God?”
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jrtrent
Guest
One of the nice things about being Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or even Anglican is that we don’t base our theology on scripture alone, and we don’t individually exegete the scriptures on our own, for we have the liturgy, the creeds, the ecumenical councils, homilies by early church fathers, etc., to use as a lens to properly interpret the Bible. I would think that it is Protestants espousing sola scriptura who would be most at risk of being swayed by the questions and impressive line-up of proof texts that Jehovah’s Witnesses can bring to bear on issues of faith and practice.
I spent several months last year in friendly, enjoyable study with Jehovah’s Witnesses. I had let them know from the beginning that I wouldn’t be converting, and that arguments from scripture alone would not prove compelling to me. They said that was perfectly all right with them; they just wanted a chance to teach me more about their faith. We can learn about other religions, and even respect their adherents, without being converted to their way of thinking.
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PRmerger
Guest
It appears that you were well catechized.
I worry about the very very many Catholics who received very poor catechesis that enter into dialogue with JWs. That is, in my estimation, very dangerous.
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St_Donatus
Guest
Yes, I was poorly Catechized and it didn’t take long for a lonely young man to want to believe they were right. I was single and had no good friends. Suddenly I had friends and they were willing to spend as much time with me as I wanted. After six months of this (and six attractive young ladies who showed interest in me at the kingdom hall), I was in and going door to door. They will use whatever weakness you have, they even recommend looking at obituaries etc to call on ones in a weak emotional state.
It appears that you were well catechized.
I worry about the very very many Catholics who received very poor catechesis that enter into dialogue with JWs. That is, in my estimation, very dangerous.
Interestingly, the Bible can be a powerful weapon even against Catholics since we do know it is the word of God. Spout off a series of choice scriptures and you can prove that Hitler was Christ himself.
Think about it, Jehovah’s Witnesses say their teachings come from the Bible, but they believe Jesus is Michael the Archangel, 99% of good people don’t go to heaven, we don’t have to listen to the New Testament because it was directed at only 144,000 people, etc.
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
St Donatus
Sounds like you are referring to a technique cults, sects use known as “love bombing”. They have you, emotionally, hook, line & sinker but is a very phony “love”: just question them at their core & they don’t like it, they will turn on you, right?
Sounds like you are referring to a technique cults, sects use known as “love bombing”. They have you, emotionally, hook, line & sinker but is a very phony “love”: just question them at their core & they don’t like it, they will turn on you, right?
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St_Donatus
Guest
I guess you might say that it is phony. I did have some very nice friends when I was one of Jehovah’s Witnesses but I do know that once I became a JW, the interest in me waned because I was won over. These people continued to be nice but the ones that I became genuine friends with became good friends and the others could care less about me. I am a outgoing person and so I had lots of friends. My wife is not, and so she had few friends. Friendships didn’t seem to be deep like we have as Catholics. They were more superficial. Over the years we became ‘close’ friends with hundreds of people but once we moved to a new congregation, that old friend was history. I don’t think I have the contact information for but maybe two or three. As Catholics, my parents sent Christmas cards etc to friends from their whole lives.
I don’t question their motives as individuals. It takes a very meek and humble person to allow a group like this to take over your life, so many of them really are nice people. But you can’t think for yourself at all. Yes, a good Catholic will also believe all the teachings of the church, even if they doubt some of them. But a JW goes a bit further. They are made to feel evil even if they have the doubt. You know you can’t even question a doctrine. While I may ask someone a question that concerns me about a Catholic teaching and someone will try to answer it, I can’t genuinely question the JW teaching. Every meeting is about proving their odd beliefs so after awhile, you come to believe that black is white and white is black, even though it doesn’t make sense logically.
Yes, when I was ‘studying’ (indoctrinated) to become a JW, people were so helpful, but once I was one, they weren’t nearly as helpful. Yes, I know one elder who was verbally and sometime physically abusing his wife and children. He was a great speaker and very charismatic. Women would tell his wife how much they envied her, while inside she never said a thing. He was the ‘movie star’ of Jehovah’s Witnesses.
My father-in-law is one of the ‘Annointed’ (the 144,000 that will rule in heaven over the Earth) and thus is treated like a King in the congregation but my wife (his step-daughter) told me about how as children, he would make them work long hours at night doing Janitorial while he was too ‘sick’ to help and would recline in his Lazy-boy at home watching TV. She dropped out of school during middle school to help support the family because he rarely was able to work. His own children have abandoned him, one of which is a JW, so we moved him in with us and care for him. He was a terrible father. He has a ‘mental condition’ so he couldn’t handle stress at all and would spend months in the Veterans Hospital psychiatric ward. Today, every Sunday someone will take him to lunch and such to have the honor of spending time with one of the ‘Annointed’. He is an Alcoholic and abuses his drugs so we keep all of it away from him. Yet, with all this, in a couple of weeks he is off to the yearly corporate meeting of the Watchtower Society.
It is like everyone is too embarassed to admit the truth of their own lives and families. Nobody knows his problems because as good JWs, we couldn’t admit it because it would bring shame on the family and would be ‘mean spirited’. Everyone walks a tight rope, hiding their problems so everyone thinks every other JW is perfect. And they wonder why at least half of them are on some kind of anti depression medicine.
Yet don’t get me wrong, as individuals, I like the friends I had as a JW, but it is an organization that is leading its people into Hell as it teaches them never to listen, read, or spend time with anyone other than a JW, it teaches them that Jesus is not God, it teaches them things that take them out of the realm of having a valid baptism and thus a very poor chance at everlasting life. Each one perpetuates those teachings going door to door, so each one is guilty of leading still other to Hell. Very sad indeed.
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Yerusalyim
Guest
Donatus,
You have a very compelling story, I’d love to hear more…how you got in and how you got out of the Society. Is it posted somehwere here? I was married to a JW…and her three kids were JW. We divorced (not due to the Society) while married she eventually left the Society…as did two of her three kids…and after the divorce…all three remain free.
You have a very compelling story, I’d love to hear more…how you got in and how you got out of the Society. Is it posted somehwere here? I was married to a JW…and her three kids were JW. We divorced (not due to the Society) while married she eventually left the Society…as did two of her three kids…and after the divorce…all three remain free.
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Pepband_Mom
Guest
St Donatus: God’s Richest Blessings to You; can’t tell you what your story means to me.:hug1:
Your story is EXACTLY why I’ve been saddened over the LDS I worked with 30 years ago & the ones I have met last 15 years; Plus the JW I work with. For example, notice same lies from the pit keep working on mankind - see Genesis: Thou shalt be as Gods says the serpent. Big lie worked then on Adam & Eve, keeps on working now in these days - Why would same serpent change a lie that still has a stunning effect on people?
It’s people like you and your loved ones that were/are deceived and can suffer tremendously under the guise of some one’s failed notion of “Christianity”.
As far as the foot soldier going to hell, we don’t know; the Church has never officially condemned anyone, Hitler or even Judas for that matter & cannot. Much depends on each soul’s culpability, how much one knows & does etc. God is a gracious, generous, loving God and we can only beg for mercy for all of His Children, especially those at the top of these sects that have run amok spiritually.
Your story is EXACTLY why I’ve been saddened over the LDS I worked with 30 years ago & the ones I have met last 15 years; Plus the JW I work with. For example, notice same lies from the pit keep working on mankind - see Genesis: Thou shalt be as Gods says the serpent. Big lie worked then on Adam & Eve, keeps on working now in these days - Why would same serpent change a lie that still has a stunning effect on people?
It’s people like you and your loved ones that were/are deceived and can suffer tremendously under the guise of some one’s failed notion of “Christianity”.
As far as the foot soldier going to hell, we don’t know; the Church has never officially condemned anyone, Hitler or even Judas for that matter & cannot. Much depends on each soul’s culpability, how much one knows & does etc. God is a gracious, generous, loving God and we can only beg for mercy for all of His Children, especially those at the top of these sects that have run amok spiritually.
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St_Donatus
Guest
As far as my story goes, you can go to my messages and find some. I think more of the story is on this thread.
Oddly, most JWs, like your ex-wife and step kids, eventually leave. Most JWs don’t stay in the organization their whole lives. The sad thing is that about half of those that get out, go through a period where they rebel totally against God. During this process and prior to returning to the Church, I belonged to an ex-JW forum and at least half of the people on the forum had sever emotional problems. They got into every vice imaginable like heavy drug use, extreme sexual deviancy, violent behavior, etc. I had seen it many times before. As JWs they are taught a sense of moral dependence on the JW beliefs. Many who leave, still believe in the teachings but think they are going to be destroyed at Armagendon. They think that as long as they are getting destroyed, they might as well enjoy all the evils the world has to offer. By the time I left the forum, one exJW murdered the other, several turned to homosexuality, several other attempted suicide and some were successful in killing themselves.
Honestly, many times these people do better just staying JWs because their mind is so warped by the JWs that living outside of the organization is almost impossible for them. Hopefully your ex-wife and her two daughters made the transition better than most. It seems that if one parent does not convert, the kids rarely have serious problems when they leave. No matter what, they have to go through years of deprogramming themselves. I have been trying to get my faith in God back for 15 years now and just really got it back about a year ago. (Though I have remained officially a JW for the last 15 years, I haven’t believed in it so I consider that part of the ‘getting my faith back’ period.)
Thanks for your kind words and God Bless your life in Christ.
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St_Donatus
Guest
Here is a bit more about how I got into the JWs.
I appreciate your kind reply. My concern is that, as you have experienced, truth and history basically depend on what you want to believe at the time. I had reasons to want to believe the JWs some 25 years ago. I was lonely, they were more than willing to be friends, I wanted to marry, they had six single young ladies in the Kingdom hall, I didn’t want to wander looking for truth, they said they had the truth and all of them agreed on those truths (even though those truths change ever year or so).
I have come to understand that intellectual pursuits and looking into history can only get you so far when searching for religious truth. At some point Holy Spirit has to guide you. Some will pray for guidance, but when it is given, they reject it for some selfish subconscience reason. I rejected it for many years.
The thing about the Catholic Encyclopedia, is that it is not a holy book, a God guided book, or a book about Catholic truths. To find this one must go to the Bible and the Catholic Catechism. Much of what is in the Catholic Encyclopedia is just the best history the academics that create source content come up with. I have found places in one part of the Catholic Encyclopedia that give history on an incident that is completely different from how it is presented in another part of it. So don’t go to the Catholic Encyclopedia and think you will find the teachings of the church. Most of it is accurate and trustworthy but they tried to use all history rather than picking and choosing just what made the Catholic Church look good. So much of that history is displayed from one aspect or another as one would get from four different witnesses to an accident. They all may vary quite a bit.
This all is why I trust the Catholic Church today. It has a direct line of history leading back to Christ and its core teachings have never changed. By the grace of God, despite sometimes evil men in places of power in the Catholic Church, it has continued to preach Christ and his teachings as presented in the Bible. It is unchangable and unmovable in history and is larger than all protestant demoninations put together.
If one can’t know how accurate history is depicted and no guide to absolute truth is available, there is only one place left to look for truth and that is the Roman Catholic Church. (Even the Bible can be interpreted in a multitude of ways.)
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St_Donatus
Guest
Thank you for your concern. I posted the reasons I ended up leavings and I think this logical points will work with LDS, JW, or even other Protestants. Here they are:
Another great question that helped me leave the Jehovah’s Witnesses was the argument a priest used in the 1800s to convert thousands of people. That is this:
#1 QUESTION: When was the Bible available to the average person?
ANSWER: The Catholic Church compiled the Bible around 397 ad. In the 1400s the printing press was invented but printing was extremely expensive. Around the year 1800 the printers were able to produce Bibles at a price most middle class people could afford.
#2 QUESTION: If the Bible wasn’t available to anyone until 397, how did Christians learn about Jesus?
ANSWER: Verbally when attending services at the only Christian church organization, the Catholic Church.
#3 QUESTION: If the Bible wasn’t available to even the wealthy (only Catholic clergy had access to the expensive hand written Bible until the 1400s, how did Christians learn about Jesus?
ANSWER: As read and preached to them while attending services at the only Christian church organization, the Catholic Church.
#4 QUESTION: If the Bible wasn’t available to the masses (only Catholic clergy had access to the expensive printed Bibles until the 1800s, how did Christians learn about Jesus?
ANSWER: As read and preached to them while attending services at the only TRUE Christian church organization, the Catholic Church.
So for the first 1800 years, only the Catholic Church had the means to bring the truth about Jesus to the masses, and it is through a Catholic Book that people learn about Jesus even up until today.
#5 QUESTION: Why would God use an evil religion to write the Bible and be the ONLY source of information about Jesus Christ for the first 1800 years of Christianity?
ANSWER: The Catholic Church is still the ONLY source about TRUE information about Jesus Christ.
God Bless your efforts.
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Micah11
Guest
True, the majority turn atheist because it is drummed into their psyche that leaving the organization is the same thing as rejecting G-d, therefore they are doomed to destruction.
In addition, no other JW friends or family will associate with them at ALL. The have an extremely strict shunning policy. This organization uses a lot of unethical means in order to keep people within its walls.
Sadly, you will be able to tell if someone has been within the organization for a long period of time because their speech becomes very robotic. In order to deal with the stress, and the psychological manipulation, some JW’s find it necessary to “turn off” their emotions similar to Mr. Spock on star trek and will respond in a similar manner. Indeed.
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St_Donatus
Guest
Part of the reason they reject God is that the JWs drum into your head that ‘false religion’ is the worst thing on earth, them being guided by Satan. This is very effective because on the one side all of their religious services focus on proving the beliefs over and over again, then they destroy any respect for religion at all, you have no reason to look anywhere else. So when they leave, they hate religion completely. My logic told me that if I believed that the world was going to end by roughly 1990 (the generation of 1914 dying off) then by 2000 not believing that at all, there was something wrong. But I knew that I wanted to serve God and since all other religions were evil, I tried really getting into, trying to persuade myself that it was all true. It didn’t work. I think that most of the JWs that stick with it, just subconciously force themselves to believe. It is much easier. I don’t have the ability to do that and it has caused much pain for me and my wife. My wife remains a devout JW and is constantly depressed about my future, our future as a family (since we can’t have any common friends etc).
As far as the deadened feelings, generally I think that what you are seeing is a reserve around ‘worldly’ people. Some I know, have that for the reasons you say, but others open up and enjoy life around other JWs.
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Micah11
Guest
I agree with that. How difficult was it for you to look at other religions with the cross on display everywhere?
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St_Donatus
Guest
Actually, it took me about 13 years after I had realized I no longer believed as JWs, to actually feel comfortable going into a Catholic Church. The cross never really bothered me because I knew that the Greek word ‘staros’ can mean both cross or post. Icons (statuses) still bother me a bit but at the same time when praying before them I realize that they are just a helper in letting us visualize Jesus and the others of the heavenly realm. They help us get closer to God, since humans are very visual.
Honestly, for some reason, I feel much more comfortable in the older churches with their statues and large crosses then the modern churches with nothing but a cross and modern sculptures. I am also drawn to the more reverent masses.
My biggest issue has definitely been the loosing of my relationships with JW friends and family. I am trying to build new friends but that takes time for a shy person.
Thanks for your interest.
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LJN21
Guest
I’ve got Lady a (sometimes two) that likes to come by every couple months and drop off a copy of “Awake!” she thinks I need to read and tell me all about what the Bible says. It is really starting to be frustrating because of the disruption of it. This afternoon she came buy and dropped off an amusing “Awake!” about “Doomsday: Fact Fiction and Fantasy”. It occurred to me after she left, next time I should ask here where she gets that Bible she likes to quote, and how she personally knows its the inspired Word of God ect. Any of you have any (name removed by moderator)ut and what would be good reading between now and then and or if there is a better angle to take with her?
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PRmerger
Guest
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