A little rant......

[hlmem]

This is my last post in this thread. Many of you I feel give Catholics a terrible name. Not because of your beliefs. You beliefs are dead on with what I think God expects from us.

I am embarrassed because people with these views condemn people with different views and try and belittle them into changing.

First of all just as a person you should never do that. Just because you do not agree with someone else’s views, and sometimes view there opinions as wrong and maybe sick you have to respect there formed view. If you do not you have no ability to have a discussion and make points to change the other persons ideas.

Second, (this is basic human psychology) You need to discuss and make points about why your view is right and move on. But trying to belittle an opinion, you turn the other person defensive and the other person will then not sway from their opinion no matter what points you make as good as they are. Why is this? because you need to attack the argument. People will change what they believe a million times on everything if the facts are good. But if you make the person making the argument feel bad, then they will stick with their opinion because they are no longer defending their opinion but defending themselves. By doing that you just did more harm because if ever that person hears a good point they will always think back to when they were attacked and know if they change opinions, they were right to be belittled. No one wants that.

My view on abortion. (I’m too conservative for life, but I’m too liberal to be a Catholic). These are points you needed to say. Maybe next time you meet someone. But say them and move on. The more you pound the more you lose.

1)Abortion is the act of killing a life. simple as that.
2)Only God not us should choose who lives or dies.
3)We can and never will know what that person will become. Maybe the person will grow up to cure cancer. So why Abort them out of fear.
4)If you are not ready for a child, do not have sex

Thats honestly what I think.

And again, if someone says 'you will go to hell for this"

That person is sick for you do not make that choice and to wish hell upon someone shows lack of love and tolerance. and Jesus wont have that in heaven either.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I find myself on a weird line as I don’t think abortion is right. Suicide is wrong. And Sex before marriage ruins marriage

BUT

That is how I choose to live my life and I support laws that legalize abortion because I think people should be allowed to live by their values not mine.

What I want is a society where people choose not to get an abortion because its wrong, not because its illegal.

Understood ​

The trouble with abortion, however, is that two people get hurt - it damages the mother, and it kills the child. If it were the sort of thing that damaged only the person doing it, the personal freedom of the (prospective ?)mother might be easier to defend. ISTM that if personal freedom can be satisfied only at the cost of involuntary suffering to another party, it has ceased to be freedom and become self-centred. I don’t think one can have unlimited freedom unless everyone is prepared to “go without” it to some extent, for the benefit of others - on this paradoxical basis, one could have it. But in practice, of course, we are flawed people in a flawed world.

IOW - there is a conflict of rights: how would you set about resolving it ? That’s my own guess ##

 

[kellie]

No one said abortion was a good thing. It just sometimes can the the best choice of 2 really bad ones

Abortion is never a “best choice”.

 

[hasikelee]

No one said abortion was a good thing. It just sometimes can the the best choice of 2 really bad ones

You sound so sure of yourself and so well-meaning. Have you worked in the abortion field at all?

It reminds me of people who talk about the Iraq war over morning coffee. They mention this headline and that headline as if talking about stock prices.

Meanwhile, the people on the frontline are engaged in a horrifying, bloody war beyond human imagination.

In my counseling, I have heard and seen things that give me nightmares every night. The level and amount of suffering that these women go through, the absolute disgusting and dehumanizing death that their children experience, is unspeakable.

Yet you talk about this subject as if we are deciding chocolate or vanilla?

No one can change your mind or your heart except you. How much effort are you willing to put behind your do-good image?

Check out www.silentnomoreawareness.org or www.standupgurl.com or www.priestforlife.org

Even better, as you are dismissing the above “biased” sites, why not get on over to a clinic and observe the women going in for their abortions.

Then you can post on here with your explanation of how you can call this choice. Because even the women who support abortion don’t really call it a choice. They call it a necessity. Last time I checked, if you have to kill your child, you don’t have freedom. So much for women’s rights.

While you’re at it, can you explain how abortion heals relationship issues? Will an abortion make her boyfriend stop beating her? Will an abortion pay her bills? Will an abortion finish school for her? Will an abortion make her daddy stop raping her, or hide the evidence so he can continue? Will an abortion let her enjoy her youth or maim and kill her? Will an abortion bring her happiness or leave her depressed with PTSD?

Okay, I’m done now. Just had to present this. Ignore it. Dismiss it. Patch up the little holes in your bubble.

 

[vern_humphrey]

No one said abortion was a good thing. It just sometimes can the the best choice of 2 really bad ones

Give me a real world example where the pre-meditated murder of an innocent and helpless human being is the best choice.

 

[Iowa_Mike]

Sadly, you may be right. The question is, what can we do to help him? I often think disputing with such people only hardens them and leads them deeper into whatever hole they have chosen for themselves.

I think we need to take a page out of Jay29’s book. Maybe Jay29 was an instrument of the Holy Spirit in giving that person a message. I hope that this meeting will replay in his mind over time…maybe it’s the seed he needed. Otherwise all we can do is pray for him.

Iowa Mike

 

[MariaG]

I have to blow off some steam…

It seems to me that I have run into more and more “cafeteria” catholics who haven’t gotta a clue on what catholicism is or what the entire faith is about.

I said to this “fellow” catholic that there were over 88,000 abortions commited in NYC alone in 2005. What do you think about that? He states what wrong with that? WHAT? I couldn’t believe my ears. So I prodded him more and asked about suicide. He states there is nothing wrong with it if people “can’t take it anymore” I am spinning now. Then I go on to say what the catholic faith’s stance is and he will hear none of it. He states he will not let an old man, a nazi, in the vatican tell him what to do. Then he starts firing insults at me. All kinds of F U’s and a gammout of other jibberish. I felt like telling him he shouldn’t even dare recieve the Eucharist, but I thought it wasn’t my place and it would only throw gas on the fire. Then the litany of insults with the validity of the scripture, indulgences, and the usual list.

I am kind of happy to be “insulted” for the Lord’s sake!

I cannot believe the audacity of some people who proclaim they are catholic and have absolutely NO CLUE what catholicism is all about!

Sorry for the rant. I needed to tell someone how ridiculous some self proclaimed “catholics” are.

Bet you had no idea how this thread would turn out from your little rant

 

[MariaG]

I will say this for those who personally believe that abortion is wrong, but that sometimes it is the best choice out of bad choices available, or that they would never do it themselves but you do not have the right to say it is wrong for someone else because your opinion is based on your faith.

I used to believe the above. I was personally against abortion, but did not feel I had the right to tell others what to do.

As I matured in my faith, I realized that stance was no different than saying, “I am personally opposed to premeditated murder, but I can’t tell others it is wrong.”

Because abortion is not like killing someone in self defense. It is premeditated murder. Like, going to the store, going through a background check, waiting a few days, then recieving your gun and shooting your boyfriend because you are afraid of him.

I DO understand that there are people who feel they have no other choice. Who THINK that this is the best choice among bad choices. But premeditated murder can never BE a good choice.

That is why as a Catholic, I CAN have sympathy and understanding for those who feel as if there are no other choices. But I should work towards giving them choices. Support by volunteering or financially or both organizations that give women who think there the best choice (out of bad ones) is to plan the murder of their child, a REAL choice, a good one.

I don’t expect those who feel as I used to, to read this and say, you are right. But I pray you will think about it and pray about it. We have been raised in a seriously corrupted world and our thinking HAS been corrupted by it.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[estesbob]

No one said abortion was a good thing. It just sometimes can the the best choice of 2 really bad ones

It is? For who? Surely not the child.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I DO understand that there are people who feel they have no other choice. Who THINK that this is the best choice among bad choices. But premeditated murder can never BE a good choice.

If you go on Death Row and talk to serial killers and true human mosters, virtually every one will tell you he had no other choice. Virtually every one of them will say to kill was the best choice among bad choices.

I discussed on another thread another case I looked into – a woman wanted me to “correct an injustice.” A man whom she met in prison (she was a prison employee) was being held because although he “forgave his accuser,” “his accuser wouldn’t forgive him” and kept showing up at his parole hearings.

Do you know what had happened to this “accuser” whom he graciously “forgave?” He brutally beat and raped her, causing brain damage, then dragged her unconscious body up a railroad embankment in the dark, and left her – still unconscious – with her arms draped over the rail. She lost both arms above the elbows when the train came.

Yet she is unjust because she keeps appearing at his parole hearings!!

 

[MariaG]

If you go on Death Row and talk to serial killers and true human mosters, virtually every one will tell you he had no other choice. Virtually every one of them will say to kill was the best choice among bad choices.

I discussed on another thread another case I looked into – a woman wanted me to “correct an injustice.” A man whom she met in prison (she was a prison employee) was being held because although he “forgave his accuser,” “his accuser wouldn’t forgive him” and kept showing up at his parole hearings.

And I bet this woman does not see how twisted her thinking is.

While it would be a very good thing for that woman to forgive the man who attacked her, for her own sake. Forgiveness does not mean she has to say she thinks he should be let out of jail. God forgave David, but he lost his son, something that David had to suffer for his whole life I am sure.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

It is? For who? Surely not the child.

Whatever happened to adoption? I would think it would be less traumatizing for a person to have a child and give it up for adoption to a good home and family than to live with an abortion for the rest of one’s life.

:heart:Blyss

 

[vern_humphrey]

And I bet this woman does not see how twisted her thinking is.

Oh, she wants to get him out, marry him, and support him for the rest of his life.

I can’t think of a better illustration of the old saying, “Be careful for what you wish for – because you just might get it.”

While it would be a very good thing for that woman to forgive the man who attacked her, for her own sake.

It would – but after her ordeal, I for one will not tell her what she ought to do.

Forgiveness does not mean she has to say she thinks he should be let out of jail. God forgave David, but he lost his son, something that David had to suffer for his whole life I am sure.

I agree – but between you and me, I’m glad she goes to all his parole hearings. Because this is one man who should never be let out of prison.

 

[MariaG]

Oh, she wants to get him out, marry him, and support him for the rest of his life.

I can’t think of a better illustration of the old saying, “Be careful for what you wish for – because you just might get it.”

If she does, she will be lucky if she gets to show up at his parole hearings without arms. Usually people like that learn from their “mistakes”. And they think their mistake was not doing it in the first place, but leaving anyone alive to testify against them

It would – but after her ordeal, I for one will not tell her what she ought to do.

I understand.

I agree – but between you and me, I’m glad she goes to all his parole hearings. Because this is one man who should never be let out of prison

Oh, I agree. And as I said, although I think she should forgive him for her sake, not his, I would too hope she would go to his parole hearing every year and make sure he never gets out of prison, too!

 

[vern_humphrey]

Whatever happened to adoption? I would think it would be less traumatizing for a person to have a child and give it up for adoption to a good home and family than to live with an abortion for the rest of one’s life.

:heart:Blyss

Ah, but then, you see, she wouldn’t be compromized. She wouldn’t be forced to defend abortion as “good” for the rest of her life to avoid admitting to herself what she had done.

Why do you think there is so much pressure on young girls – especially younger girls – to abort? And why is there so much resistance to getting their parents involved?

If the girl were merely failing arithmetic, there would be parent-teacher conferences and the parents would be told things they could do to help her – but not if she’s a victim of statutory rape (or worse)!

 

[MariaG]

Whatever happened to adoption? I would think it would be less traumatizing for a person to have a child and give it up for adoption to a good home and family than to live with an abortion for the rest of one’s life.

:heart:Blyss

Ah, but then, you see, she wouldn’t be compromized. She wouldn’t be forced to defend abortion as “good” for the rest of her life to avoid admitting to herself what she had done.

Why do you think there is so much pressure on young girls – especially younger girls – to abort? And why is there so much resistance to getting their parents involved?

If the girl were merely failing arithmetic, there would be parent-teacher conferences and the parents would be told things they could do to help her – but not if she’s a victim of statutory rape (or worse)!

As well as adoption is a selfless choice. Giving birth to life and giving that life away.

Abortion is basically a selfish choice. For whatever reason one got pregnant, one is saying that my life, my health (physical or emotional), are more important than an unborn child.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If she does, she will be lucky if she gets to show up at his parole hearings without arms. Usually people like that learn from their “mistakes”. And they think their mistake was not doing it in the first place, but leaving anyone alive to testify against them

Oh, I agree. And as I said, although I think she should forgive him for her sake, not his, I would too hope she would go to his parole hearing every year and make sure he never gets out of prison, too!

The chilling thing is how defenders of abortion desplay the same sociopathic personality traits:

1. 
   *]Defending what they have done as a right.
   *]Showing no empathy for the victim.
   *]Dehumanizing the victim (the victim is “his accuser” or “a fetus, not a baby.”)
   *]Pulling the victim down to a lower moral plane than themselves (“she won’t forgive him.” “It’s a parasite.”)
   *]Making themselves and their own convenience and desires the ultimate arbiters of morality.
   *]Attacking people who do things like showing pictures of the victims as “unfair.”
   *]Claiming what they did was “necessary.”
   *]Coldly and clearly plotting to continue on their course, regardless.

 

[estesbob]

Whatever happened to adoption? I would think it would be less traumatizing for a person to have a child and give it up for adoption to a good home and family than to live with an abortion for the rest of one’s life.

:heart:Blyss

Just a mild correction-people dont “give up” a child for adoption. They"place" a child for adoption. the former has all sorts of negative connotations-the latter does not.

When i counsel for adoption i always start with the concept that God has a plan for all of us and for most that Plan is a family. By placing their child for adoption they can help fulfill Gods plan for a childless couple.

 

[MariaG]

Just a mild correction-people dont “give up” a child for adoption. They"place" a child for adoption. the former has all sorts of negative connotations-the latter does not.

When i counsel for adoption i always start with the concept that God has a plan for all of us and for most that Plan is a family. By placing their child for adoption they can help fulfill Gods plan for a childless couple.

I will try to remember that.

Words can make a huge impact on perception.

 

[MariaG]

The chilling thing is how defenders of abortion desplay the same sociopathic personality traits:

1. 
   *]Defending what they have done as a right.
   *]Showing no empathy for the victim.
   *]Dehumanizing the victim (the victim is “his accuser” or “a fetus, not a baby.”)
   *]Pulling the victim down to a lower moral plane than themselves (“she won’t forgive him.” “It’s a parasite.”)
   *]Making themselves and their own convenience and desires the ultimate arbiters of morality.
   *]Attacking people who do things like showing pictures of the victims as “unfair.”
   *]Claiming what they did was “necessary.”
   *]Coldly and clearly plotting to continue on their course, regardless.

1. 
   That is scary, I never thought of it in such stark terms but you are right.