A Lutheran with a question

[Michael19682]

Thank you for your thought provoking comment. To answer the question of I don’t have very much understanding of the catholic faith. What I mean is, I feel the holy spirit telling me that you need and desire true communion with God. Yes I do wish for that. I have felt that at times
The Lutheran faith at times has been good for me… But it seems that it’s when I am worshiping in the traditional way, in which is very close to be like a catholic mass. So it’s that strong desire that I want and need for true worship.
The other issue I have is that my spouse is not a fan of the Catholic faith, mostly because of what she has been told by others. So this will be another issue that I feel if this is a true God thing then he will be there walking with her, and helping her understand.
Finally this would be a great help wright off. Help me understand and give me some scripture to why it seems that you ( Catholics pray to Mary and the saints)… This is the one thing as a protestNt we are told all the time that you Catholics are idol worshippers. So please make sure you understand that I am not Attacking you. I just need some backing to help defend the Catholic faith.
Thank you.

For starters I can say that if you feel the holy spirit telling you of your desires, help Him out. The Holy Spirit is God. Therefore you do have communion with God. Believe Him and believe that He is telling you something. God gives himself to you in communion; it is we who often hold back. In my experience it is the Catholic Sacrament of Communion that is where peace on earth can be truly found. That is the only way I can interpret what you say. The Holy Spirit has decreed to the magesterium of the Church that this sacramant represents a oneness of community. It might appear that I have argued against that the existence of that oneness. But I really have not argued so. The Sacrament is a mystery. You simply must receive to know. The Sacrament must be received properly. I have met many Catholics who believe the Sacrament should be opened up to all humanity regardless of preparation. I personally believe it is because of the terms ‘idol worshiper’ etc, that the magesteruim cannot open up the sacrament. Thus, you can see the holy spirit at work protecting the Church through the very actions of her persecutors. Their criticism and their rejection keep them away, keep us closer to each other, and an understanding of the mystery of Christ’s suffering as well as his Birth is deepened.

 

[DasErlibnis]

I think it can be said that the New American Bible is a great “interpretation” of Scripture for the most part. Obviously, it is used in the Catholic Liturgy. But I might add that it sometimes feels inconsistent in its interpretation.

On the other hand, the RSV Catholic Edition is a complete and accurate translation. When I compare it to the original Greek, I see it is more consistent. With proper guidance, I think that wisdom will better help one to understand the hidden meanings of Scripture using this translation.

Regarding finding help understanding Catholic teaching, I hope that no one would turn you away out of fear of inadequacy. There are plenty of resources here and I’d think there are substantial ways that this community can help you find truthful answers.

But at the end of the day, it takes a personal one on one approach for you to really understand with your heart and go beyond the mere intellectual aspects of our faith.

“Fides et Ratio”

 

[pablope]

Thank you for your thought provoking comment. To answer the question of I don’t have very much understanding of the catholic faith. What I mean is, I

Finally this would be a great help wright off. Help me understand and give me some scripture to why it seems that you ( Catholics pray to Mary and the saints)… This is the one thing as a protestNt we are told all the time that you Catholics are idol worshippers. So please make sure you understand that I am not Attacking you. I just need some backing to help defend the Catholic faith.
Thank you.

you can start here…scripturecatholic.com/saints.html

 

[JRKH]

Thank you for your thought provoking comment. To answer the question of I don’t have very much understanding of the catholic faith. What I mean is, I feel the holy spirit telling me that you need and desire true communion with God. Yes I do wish for that. I have felt that at times
The Lutheran faith at times has been good for me… But it seems that it’s when I am worshiping in the traditional way, in which is very close to be like a catholic mass. So it’s that strong desire that I want and need for true worship.

It is good that you are following this desire and seeking understanding. The fact that you find great comfort in the Lutheran Liturgy - yet still feel this strong desire in your heart makes me bold to say - Come to a Catholic Church - not at mass time, but just sometime during the day. Seek out the Tabernacle (there will be a lamp burning nearby). Sit before the tabernacle and “test the spirit”. If God is leading you into the Catholic Church, you should sense His presence there - for He IS there present in the Holy Sacrifice lying in repose in the Tabernacle.

The other issue I have is that my spouse is not a fan of the Catholic faith, mostly because of what she has been told by others. So this will be another issue that I feel if this is a true God thing then he will be there walking with her, and helping her understand.

This is not uncommon - that spouses are not always in sync on these matters. The best advice here is to be patient with her. As you learn, and as she seems receptive, share with her the truth of what Catholics believe. As you are learning you will have specific documented evidence of our beliefs to counteract the anecdotal things that she has heard.

Finally this would be a great help wright off. Help me understand and give me some scripture to why it seems that you ( Catholics pray to Mary and the saints)… This is the one thing as a protestant we are told all the time that you Catholics are idol worshipers. So please make sure you understand that I am not Attacking you. I just need some backing to help defend the Catholic faith.
Thank you.

Actually there are two issues here…Prayer to saints and “Idol worship”…
As to Idol worship, most often this charge is associated with the use of statues and such things. (No graven images…) but as one looks into this matter we find that God had “graven images” placed on the Arc of the Covenant and also the design of the Temple had many “graven images” on it.
In Catholicism, statues, pictures etc…What we refer to as “Icons” are like “family pictures” - things that call our mind to a loved one. They are representative of the thing we Love. We place no special power in the Icon, nor do we “Worship” it.

Prayer to the saints is the simple request for saints to intercede for us before the holy throne of God. It is really not much different than my asking you to pray for me. If I come to you, troubled, sick or whatever, and ask you to pray for me, would you refuse?? Of course not. You would gladly add your prayers to mine.
The Saints in heaven are no different. The Saints in heaven are what are called in Catholicism, “The Church triumphant”, while we here on earth are called the “Church Militant”.
Many Protestants subscribe to something called “soul sleep” or something similar and hold that those who have died cannot hear our prayers. In Catholicism we do not hold with that view. We believe that the Saints are alive and conscious of us on earth and, because their own souls are perfectly conformed to God’s Will, they too hope and pray for our salvation.
Pablope has given a link to some Scriptural support for this.
THIS LINK might offer some other good insight.

Peace
James

 

[lutherlic]

Why must he believe it? You will answer, no doubt, because if he does not then he can go to Hell. I call your attention to the true teaching of the Church on hell: no one goes [to hell] unless he wants to. If you think that someone angry enough to want momentary capital vengeance on a murderous thug also wants to go to Hell himself, you just might be mistaken. No one is perfect, save Christ himself.

I submit to you that there is a difference between the doctrine of the Catholic Church and the Church itself. If you need to be a perfect imitation of the doctrine to be considered a part of the Church, then you must deny the possibility of personal sin for all, for all have sin. 1 John 1:8-10.

Jesus said: “Be perfect, just as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” Unless someone tells me otherwise this must mean 1) that I am not currently perfect and need God’s grace and 2) the statement is an exhortation to be ever vigilant in pursuit of perfection.

Living in community requires forgiveness. Christ was perfect and he forgave all. Part of the fortuitous logic of forgiveness is that I can forgive out of recognition that I am not perfect. With the advent of fundamentalism a real challenge has arisen for me to be forgiving in areas where I am relatively more perfect. Some of these think that once they have perfected some foible, this means it is time to condemn all those with this same foible, as if they themselves are immune to criticism on that ‘dimension’ of their life.

It makes no sense to pretend the Church is without sin, or to deny access to it to all who have sin. Likewise, I should always have the freedom to choose those with whom I associate. It’s the judgmental part I can do without.

The Church leads us to salvation when we are all judged. Disobedience to her teaching is choosing hell, any claims to the contrary not withstanding. Imperfect that we are, sinners all, does not for a moment lessen Church teaching or moral authority. Nor does it empower us with the freedom of conscience to reject it, at least with a well-founded expectation of salvation.

Much of what you wrote could be very misleading. “no one goes [to hell] unless he wants to” could imply that one is saved by faith alone, which any faithful, well catechized Catholic knows is false. To be clear, those not “wanting” to go to hell do their best to follow God’s will. There are morally neutral choices, but others need no discernment what-so-ever as Church teaching is crystal clear. For example, abortion is always an intrinsically evil sin. Non-chaste sexual acts (i.e. sex outside of marriage, including every homosexual act) is always gravely sinful. One would be deluding themselves if they supported or engaged in non-repentant sinful behavior but feels saved non-the-less because they don’t “want to go to hell”. Their actions say otherwise.

We are a community of believers. “Living in [that] community” means believing what the Church teaches and doing our best to follow it. If we pick and choose what to follow by our own free will, then we are are heretical and schismatic from that community, from Christ. Christ and His Church are inseparable.

Forgiveness comes from repentance, including the intention to sin no more.

themattman - our faith is not one of personal opinions, mine or anyone else. Please read carefully the authoritative and faithful texts already noted.

 

[JRKH]

The Church leads us to salvation when we are all judged. Disobedience to her teaching is choosing hell, any claims to the contrary not withstanding. Imperfect that we are, sinners all, does not for a moment lessen Church teaching or moral authority. Nor does it empower us with the freedom of conscience to reject it, at least with a well-founded expectation of salvation.

Much of what you wrote could be very misleading. “no one goes [to hell] unless he wants to” could imply that one is saved by faith alone, which any faithful, well catechized Catholic knows is false. To be clear, those not “wanting” to go to hell do their best to follow God’s will. There are morally neutral choices, but others need no discernment what-so-ever as Church teaching is crystal clear. For example, abortion is always an intrinsically evil sin. Non-chaste sexual acts (i.e. sex outside of marriage, including every homosexual act) is always gravely sinful. One would be deluding themselves if they supported or engaged in non-repentant sinful behavior but feels saved non-the-less because they don’t “want to go to hell”. Their actions say otherwise.

We are a community of believers. “Living in [that] community” means believing what the Church teaches and doing our best to follow it. If we pick and choose what to follow by our own free will, then we are are heretical and schismatic from that community, from Christ. Christ and His Church are inseparable.

Forgiveness comes from repentance, including the intention to sin no more.

themattman - our faith is not one of personal opinions, mine or anyone else. Please read carefully the authoritative and faithful texts already noted.

And to just add…:twocents:

When one claims membership in an organization one needs to conform ones self to the beliefs, ideals, and teachings of that organization. This is true of any civil group from the Cub scouts - to the Kiwanis Club - as well as to a religious group.
To try to identify with a given group and enjoy it’s benefits while simultaneously rejecting the tenets of the group is disingenuous.

Now having said this…I do not have a problem with a person having troubles understanding and embracing all of the teachings of the Church. I see this as both common and natural as we are all on a journey towards truth.
**HOWEVER - - - **
There is a huge difference between personal struggle, carried on privately among close friends and spiritual advisers, and public statements that are contrary to Church teaching.

Like many Catholics I struggle to understand Church teaching on certain matters of faith. But I do so privately. I ask questions. I pray on the matter(s). I try to study and form my conscience to Christ in the Church…But if someone asks me what Catholics believe on a given matter - even one I struggle with - I will ALWAYS point them to official Church teaching.

Jesus spoke rather forcefully about the responsibility of a teacher and what would happen to someone who leads others astray.
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea. (mt 18:6)

Peace
James

 

[Michael19682]

I find this section of your post to be very disturbing.
How can you say that “The Catholic Faith doesn’t believe anything” when we profess together at every mass, the Creed. When there is a wonderful book called the Catechism. when there are Catholic Dogmas that require our assent.

Yes it is true that Catholics believing these things is what gives them life, but it is the “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith” that holds to these teachings.

Unfortunately it is also true that there are those who call themselves Catholics and openly rebel against or simply ignore Church teaching. They do so at their own peril.
May God grant them humility and wisdom…

But because such “fallen away” Catholics exist, they do not justify your assertion that the Catholic faith believes nothing…

Peace
James

Please James, keep in mind that I was offering comment to a Lutheran person according to the literal words he used in his plea for help. Furthermore, I was pointing out clues to his difficulty in understanding Catholic teaching - clues derived from his actual verbiage; and, I might add, these seem well received by this gentleman…

Professing together at every mass now a newly worded Creed notwithstanding, there is much that is problematic in the world. We are all exhorted to not be of this world, but to walk in the light as children of God. The existence of fallen away Catholics has nothing to do with my assertion on the inertness of doctrine. Faith must be alive or else it is not faith. The letter of James tells us ‘crystal clear’ of the possibility of ‘dead faith’, i.e. faith without works of charity. If there is the possibility of dead faith, and if the Church is the immortal body of Christ, then clearly as I have stated it seems difficult to equate the two. How can what is dead be immortal?

By citing the creed and writing “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith,” did you mean as I was hoping you would see, “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”? The latter are the exact words of the creed. I don’t think we can necessarily substitute the one for the other.

My point to our Lutheran brother was simply that if he wants to better understand the faith, he should not exclusively look to the dogma on paper, but come visit it in vivo amongst God’s people. Advising him otherwise would be to fall victim to the pitfall of much Protestant Fundamentalism: solo scriptura. His complaints about the diatribe against our faith and church likely come from the thought of these fundamentalists.

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Why must he believe it? You will answer, no doubt, because if he does not then he can go to Hell. I call your attention to the true teaching of the Church on hell: no one goes [to hell] unless he wants to. If you think that someone angry enough to want momentary capital vengeance on a murderous thug also wants to go to Hell himself, you just might be mistaken. No one is perfect, save Christ himself.

One must believe it only if one wishes to be Catholic. One who claims to be Catholic, yet does not believe what the Church teaches, is a heretic, as defined in Canon 751.

I submit to you that there is a difference between the doctrine of the Catholic Church and the Church itself. If you need to be a perfect imitation of the doctrine to be considered a part of the Church, then you must deny the possibility of personal sin for all, for all have sin. 1 John 1:8-10.

This is absurd, sir. Church doctrine does not exist apart from the Church herself. Catholics may indeed sin because we do not always live up to what we believe.

Jesus said: “Be perfect, just as your Heavenly Father is perfect.” Unless someone tells me otherwise this must mean 1) that I am not currently perfect and need God’s grace and 2) the statement is an exhortation to be ever vigilant in pursuit of perfection.

This is the struggle for all of God’s children. We will not be perfect until our souls are purified and perfected in purgatory, and we are accepted into heaven.

Living in community requires forgiveness. Christ was perfect and he forgave all. Part of the fortuitous logic of forgiveness is that I can forgive out of recognition that I am not perfect. With the advent of fundamentalism a real challenge has arisen for me to be forgiving in areas where I am relatively more perfect. Some of these think that once they have perfected some foible, this means it is time to condemn all those with this same foible, as if they themselves are immune to criticism on that ‘dimension’ of their life.

Fundamentalism has nothing to do with it. We have been praying “forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us,” as Christ taught us, since Christianity began.

It makes no sense to pretend the Church is without sin, or to deny access to it to all who have sin. Likewise, I should always have the freedom to choose those with whom I associate. It’s the judgmental part I can do without.

The Church is without sin. She is the Bride of Christ without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-33, see also 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 21:9-14, 22:17); His Very Body (Colossians 1:15-18, 1:24, 2:19; Ephesians 1:22-23, 4:4-7, 4:11-16; Romans 12:4-5; 1 Corinthians 12:27, 6:1). Her members are not without sin.

No one is denied access to the Church. No Catholic is denied the ability to associate with whom they wish. The Church has no police force to enforce her teaching or rules. If one wants to dissent, there is nothing that prevents one from doing so. The Church simply states her teaching and defines who is and who is not a Catholic in good standing, as is her right

The Church is a compassionate hospital for sinners and a training facility for saints. Any dissenter who calls him/herself Catholic can become a Catholic in good standing by changing his/her heart, repenting, and availing him/herself of Confession. Being human, we are all sinners and in need of Confession, absolution, and God’s grace throughout our lives on earth. Sometimes we need to educate ourselves about what the Church teaches and why.

Peace be with you.

 

[Michael19682]

The Church leads us to salvation when we are all judged. Disobedience to her teaching is choosing hell, any claims to the contrary not withstanding. Imperfect that we are, sinners all, does not for a moment lessen Church teaching or moral authority. Nor does it empower us with the freedom of conscience to reject it, at least with a well-founded expectation of salvation.

Much of what you wrote could be very misleading. “no one goes [to hell] unless he wants to” could imply that one is saved by faith alone, which any faithful, well catechized Catholic knows is false. To be clear, those not “wanting” to go to hell do their best to follow God’s will. There are morally neutral choices, but others need no discernment what-so-ever as Church teaching is crystal clear. For example, abortion is always an intrinsically evil sin. Non-chaste sexual acts (i.e. sex outside of marriage, including every homosexual act) is always gravely sinful. One would be deluding themselves if they supported or engaged in non-repentant sinful behavior but feels saved non-the-less because they don’t “want to go to hell”. Their actions say otherwise.

We are a community of believers. “Living in [that] community” means believing what the Church teaches and doing our best to follow it. If we pick and choose what to follow by our own free will, then we are are heretical and schismatic from that community, from Christ. Christ and His Church are inseparable.

Forgiveness comes from repentance, including the intention to sin no more.

themattman - our faith is not one of personal opinions, mine or anyone else. Please read carefully the authoritative and faithful texts already noted.

The best of all teachings is the teaching of example. Christ himself said a lamp is not put under a bushel basket, but on top of it to show off its light. When a church member sins, it greatly lessens Church teaching on account of this principle of example.

Additionally, forgiveness doesn’t come from repentance. Christ forgives through the ministry of the church, which has had the Holy Spirit sent amongst it. True, He does not spurn a repentant and contrite heart - but it is not your heart that forgives, but the Sacred Heart of Jesus. If forgiveness came from your repentance only, you would be forgiving yourself and would have no need for the priest’s spirit.

 

[JRKH]

Please James, keep in mind that I was offering comment to a Lutheran person according to the literal words he used in his plea for help. Furthermore, I was pointing out clues to his difficulty in understanding Catholic teaching - clues derived from his actual verbiage; and, I might add, these seem well received by this gentleman…

Professing together at every mass now a newly worded Creed notwithstanding, there is much that is problematic in the world. We are all exhorted to not be of this world, but to walk in the light as children of God. The existence of fallen away Catholics has nothing to do with my assertion on the inertness of doctrine. Faith must be alive or else it is not faith. The letter of James tells us ‘crystal clear’ of the possibility of ‘dead faith’, i.e. faith without works of charity. If there is the possibility of dead faith, and if the Church is the immortal body of Christ, then clearly as I have stated it seems difficult to equate the two. How can what is dead be immortal?

By citing the creed and writing “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith,” did you mean as I was hoping you would see, “One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church”? The latter are the exact words of the creed. I don’t think we can necessarily substitute the one for the other.

My point to our Lutheran brother was simply that if he wants to better understand the faith, he should not exclusively look to the dogma on paper, but come visit it in vivo amongst God’s people. Advising him otherwise would be to fall victim to the pitfall of much Protestant Fundamentalism: solo scriptura. His complaints about the diatribe against our faith and church likely come from the thought of these fundamentalists.

Thank you for your kind response and clarification.
Yes I did note that your post was well received by the OP.
Perhaps I did miss something in the verbiage that would shed a particular light on the matter. If so I apologize.
However - I do think that the responses from other Catholics to your post are also important things for the OP to hear and understand so that there be no ambiguity about what a Catholic is to believe in order to rightly be called “Catholic”.

I do agree that the OP should not restrict himself to “dry texts” but should meet with and learn from other Catholics…BUT…If the OP wishes to truly learn what the Church teaches, he needs to start from the texts and work outward. That way when he runs into “Cafeteria Catholic” or worse, a CINO (Catholic in name only) he will know enough of actual teaching to ask good questions.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The best of all teachings is the teaching of example. Christ himself said a lamp is not put under a bushel basket, but on top of it to show off its light. When a church member sins, it greatly lessens Church teaching on account of this principle of example.

I think I understand what you are trying to say here but I think it is not properly stated. Consider the last sentence reworded a bit…
When a disciple of Christ sins, it greatly lessens Christ’s teaching on account of this principle of example.
I’m certain you would not agree that the teachings of Jesus are lessened by the sin of His disciples.

I believe what you were trying to convey - and correct me if I’m wrong - is that the effectiveness of church teaching can be lessened by the sin of individual members.

St Francis expressed this in the simple phrase. “Preach the Gospel Always. When necessary, use words”.

Additionally, forgiveness doesn’t come from repentance. Christ forgives through the ministry of the church, which has had the Holy Spirit sent amongst it. True, He does not spurn a repentant and contrite heart - but it is not your heart that forgives, but the Sacred Heart of Jesus. If forgiveness came from your repentance only, you would be forgiving yourself and would have no need for the priest’s spirit.

This is true very true. But it can also overlook the very real need for our cooperation in forgiveness.
Consider…
Forgiveness comes wholly and freely From God. However, God cannot force us to receive the forgiveness he offers. So the offer of forgiveness remains simply that - an offer, until we act, through repentance, to receive that which is offered.
When we repent, we open our heart, we open our hand to receive that which is offered. Without the two fold, cooperative work of offer and reception, the healing grace that is available in repentance and reconciliation cannot enter our heart and soul.

Peace
James

 

[Michael19682]

]One must believe it only if one wishes to be Catholic. One who claims to be Catholic, yet does not believe what the Church teaches, is a heretic, as defined in Canon 751

.

I can accept that - though it appears I have no choice. Question is: is it better to be a heretic Catholic or a non Catholic? According to your citation this is not so easy to decide; yet it is the fundamental question that many people must decide when determining their religious identity. All Christianity owes its roots Christ first, Peter second. By your logic I might call all other Christian denominations heretical. Yet I met a Lutheran Bishop on the train who said his parish is in full communion with Rome. What do you suppose he could have meant?

This is absurd, sir. Church doctrine does not exist apart from the Church herself. Catholics may indeed sin because we do not always live up to what we believe.

Church doctrine reflects the scriptural interpretation of the episcopacy. Even though they be united in Spirit, this does not guarantee a united following. The only thing that every one must agree on is that salvation comes for all humanity from God’s only Son, Jesus Christ.

The Church is without sin. She is the Bride of Christ without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:25-33, see also 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 21:9-14, 22:17); His Very Body (Colossians 1:15-18, 1:24, 2:19; Ephesians 1:22-23, 4:4-7, 4:11-16; Romans 12:4-5; 1 Corinthians 12:27, 6:1). Her members are not without sin.

This is the difficulty our Lutheran friend was running into. “His very body” has many parts. Christ did not sin with any part of his body. In fact, the Church did not truly begin until Pentecost, when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit- thus you can see that there is some kind of distinction between the Body of Christ proper, which ascended into heaven, and his body on earth, the Roman Catholic Church. If there were not a kind of distinction, then what need have we to receive his body in communion? What you are referring to is the perfection of the overall purpose of his body, which is composed of many people throughout the earth and in heaven. Thus, an individual sin is seemingly compensated for by the offerings elsewhere in the body, i.e. the prayers of the Church for itself and the world.
The result looks like a perfect picture. Yet who would deny that the Church’s perfection is a result of the constant sustenance of the holy trinity. Without God there is no Church. This is a great mystery and cannot be explained easily without the risk of confusion. You offered scripture as guidance for this person, yet scripture requires faith in those who wrote it and in those who interpret it, and, of course in God himself. However, this person claims his greatest obstacle is the Protestant fundamentalism which has reached his spouse’s mind.

It was yet again my explanation of something to someone who is up against an enemy to his faith in such a way as to show that the way of philosophical understanding is often surpassed by immediate in vivo experience. It is exactly because of these types of disagreements that people say Church doctrine is muddled and riddled with distortions.
I did not misrepresent my conscience, nor did I intend to misrepresent scripture.

…and also with your spirit

 

[JonNC]

It is good that you are following this desire and seeking understanding. The fact that you find great comfort in the Lutheran Liturgy - yet still feel this strong desire in your heart makes me bold to say - Come to a Catholic Church - not at mass time, but just sometime during the day. Seek out the Tabernacle (there will be a lamp burning nearby). Sit before the tabernacle and “test the spirit”. If God is leading you into the Catholic Church, you should sense His presence there - for He IS there present in the Holy Sacrifice lying in repose in the Tabernacle.

This is not uncommon - that spouses are not always in sync on these matters. The best advice here is to be patient with her. As you learn, and as she seems receptive, share with her the truth of what Catholics believe. As you are learning you will have specific documented evidence of our beliefs to counteract the anecdotal things that she has heard.

Actually there are two issues here…Prayer to saints and “Idol worship”…
As to Idol worship, most often this charge is associated with the use of statues and such things. (No graven images…) but as one looks into this matter we find that God had “graven images” placed on the Arc of the Covenant and also the design of the Temple had many “graven images” on it.
In Catholicism, statues, pictures etc…What we refer to as “Icons” are like “family pictures” - things that call our mind to a loved one. They are representative of the thing we Love. We place no special power in the Icon, nor do we “Worship” it.

Prayer to the saints is the simple request for saints to intercede for us before the holy throne of God. It is really not much different than my asking you to pray for me. If I come to you, troubled, sick or whatever, and ask you to pray for me, would you refuse?? Of course not. You would gladly add your prayers to mine.
The Saints in heaven are no different. The Saints in heaven are what are called in Catholicism, “The Church triumphant”, while we here on earth are called the “Church Militant”.
Many Protestants subscribe to something called “soul sleep” or something similar and hold that those who have died cannot hear our prayers. In Catholicism we do not hold with that view. We believe that the Saints are alive and conscious of us on earth and, because their own souls are perfectly conformed to God’s Will, they too hope and pray for our salvation.
Pablope has given a link to some Scriptural support for this.
THIS LINK might offer some other good insight.

Peace
James

To my fellow Lutheran, the mattman,
As you seek advice here regarding the Catholic faith, I encourage you to listen to the good ones, like James,here.

An excellent post, James.
Jon

 

[JRKH]

To my fellow Lutheran, the mattman,
As you seek advice here regarding the Catholic faith, I encourage you to listen to the good ones, like James,here.

An excellent post, James.
Jon

Jon,
Thank you for your kind words.
As I commented on another thread today, if I ramble long enough something good is bound to fall out…

In Truth - anything I offer of any worth is not mine but the Spirit.

Peace
James

 

[Michael19682]

Perhaps when our Lutheran friend, the mattman, returns from digesting all this - the good, many posts made by many in sincere hope for his benefit - he will tell us what he now thinks of Catholic doctrine and how, if at all, he plans on explaining it to the others in his life. If he tell us so, even in part, before Christmas, he will have given us all a gift. Mattman and others, I find that these dialogues in the forums are just such a reward.

 

[Conor7]

It’s also my understanding that the Lutherans and Anglicans now recognize each others’ communion as valid and can receive communion at either church.

As a point of clarification, the ELCA and the Episcopal Church in the US are in full communion with one another, meaning “they will be able to share clergy, and fully recognize each other’s members, ministries and sacraments.”

A similar agreement was reached in Canada.

Further Information

 

[lutherlic]

The best of all teachings is the teaching of example. Christ himself said a lamp is not put under a bushel basket, but on top of it to show off its light. When a church member sins, it greatly lessens Church teaching on account of this principle of example.

If by “greatly lessens Church teaching” we are referring to the reception of that message in a secular, unbelieving world – then I would agree. If we are referring to the reception of that message by those who profess the Catholic faith, then I would respectfully have to disagree. Catholics challenging Church teaching, because of the sins of individual members (clergy or laity, few or many) often are seeking an excuse to deny Church authority and justify their disobedience.

Additionally, forgiveness doesn’t come from repentance. Christ forgives through the ministry of the church, which has had the Holy Spirit sent amongst it. True, He does not spurn a repentant and contrite heart - but it is not your heart that forgives, but the Sacred Heart of Jesus. If forgiveness came from your repentance only, you would be forgiving yourself and would have no need for the priest’s spirit.

Of course, that is assumed. It is not the repentant and contrite heart that is spurned but the non-repentant, prideful one. That is the point. So applied to this discussion, if one were a “Cafeteria Catholic” and deciding for themselves certain favorite sins were not actually sinful at all, they would fall into this category and likely live in a state of mortal sin. They wouldn’t confess these sins, or if they did would not have the intent to stop so would not be absolved.

 

[schaick]

My husband is Lutheran, and I’m a Catholic (have been all my life.) You’re not going to find that we’re really all that different in most points of doctrine, but the core one is that we believe in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Holy Eucharist. I occasionally go to his church, and was frankly quite startled when the pastor and congregation were reciting the identical Nicene Creed I have recited all my life.

We’re pretty close in beliefs here. Remember, Luther was a disaffected Catholic monk! It’s also my understanding that the Lutherans and Anglicans now recognize each others’ communion as valid and can receive communion at either church.

As you start your research into the Catholic Church, I think you’re going to be captured by the feeling of “but wait–there’s more!” instead of “that’s all, folks!”

May the happy day arrive when all of us are restored to the Faith as one! I’m hopeful that it is possible, and pray that it’s sooner rather than later.

My spouse was Catholic, but is now Lutheran!!

Lutherans believe in Real Presence but in, under and with and not a transformation as Catholics do. Lutherans do not worship the consecrated/transformed wafer we consume it which completes the meal.

 

[themattman]

Thank you all for your ideas and answers. I have a deep question about the mass. In one answer would you say that mass is the revisiting of Christ being crucified? If so, does he get re-crucified each time and why?
Matt

 

[JRKH]

Thank you all for your ideas and answers. I have a deep question about the mass. In one answer would you say that mass is the revisiting of Christ being crucified? If so, does he get re-crucified each time and why?
Matt

The Mass is the “Making Present” or “re-presentation” of the One sacrifice. No Jesus does not get re-crucified each time.

Peace
James