A major problem.

[lak611]

After all, there is only one Jewish religion.

Are Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Judaism really the same? I am not familiar enough with Judaism to know if there are major differences or not.

 

[the_phoenix]

Maybe that’s where I am having a problem with the RCC. The RCC claims to know the real truth. I don’t believe that any religion knows the real truth because the very definition of religion includes belief and not truth, in my understanding. BTW, I am a scientist so be careful of going there unless you have considerable credentials in science.

“Pilate therefore said to him: Art thou a king then? Jesus answered: Thou sayest that I am a king. For this was I born, and for this came I into the world; that I should give testimony to the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.” – John 18:37

“Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.” – John 14:6

~~ the phoenix

 

[Other_Eric]

That is true in science, but not so much in religion. It is not axiomatic in religion that there is a right and wrong answer. You might believe it, but that doesn’t constitute proof of correctness. But it does constitute the reality of your belief, and I would never try to convince a person that what they believe is wrong. Science deals with that differently of course. Science isn’t about belief, it’s about truth.

Maybe that’s where I am having a problem with the RCC. The RCC claims to know the real truth. I don’t believe that any religion knows the real truth because the very definition of religion includes belief and not truth, in my understanding. BTW, I am a scientist so be careful of going there unless you have considerable credentials in science.

My credentials in science are not very good at all so I will defer to you on that particular subject. Thankfully, science is outside the realm of our present discussion, this being one of metaphysics.

What confuses me is how you arrive at the idea that religion is made up of things that are not true to any degree. If religion is about anything other than ultimate truth and ultimate reality, it ceases to be useful for much of anything.

This brings us to my little axiom, which you have chosen to deny in the case of religion. This is strange, especially for a Protestant. I assume that both you and I can agree that there is one God and that God is one. If God is God, then He must be the ultimate reality. Since He is one, the nature of that reality must be static, that is, it cannot be many things all different in type from one another. It therefore follows that the ultimate reality, whatever it is, is a fixed constant about which we may be either right or wrong.

Notice here that I have not invoked any sort of Catholic doctrine. We have not addressed the truth claims of any one religion. We’ll come to that later. All I mean to point out here is that the essence of God, the ultimate reality, cannot be dependant on whatever it is we choose to believe. If it were, then God could not be God.

 

[Other_Eric]

I thought Catholics had a handle on the one true church? I thought they had the truth nailed down? No?

That the Church, in her communion with Christ, has managed to get it right does not mean we can say the same about all of the Church’s individual members.

 

[true_believer]

I’m a Catholic at a university which tends to be more protestant than anything, and I have realized that there are many things which Catholics say which can offend Protestant, such as the one true church thing, or when we intercede through Mary.

But at the same time, there are many things which Protestants say that offend me, as a Catholic, such as when they call themselves Christian in a way that makes it sound as if they are the only Christians. Or they ask when you were saved or if you have accepted Jesus as your PERSONAL lord and savior.

Of course I realize that Jesus is my savior, but as a Catholic, I see it more as that Jesus is the savior of the world, and I don’t feel the need to stress “personal” as much. And I was saved at baptism, but I don’t go around telling of when I was saved like Protestants do.

Basically, to make my point, what I’m trying to say is that the miscommunication, un-acceptance, ect. goes both ways. There are things that each group of Christians says that rubs the other group the wrong way.

I think that what each group really needs to do if we want a unified church ever again, is to listen to each other, learn from each other, question each other, discuss issues with each other, ect. No one is ever going to get past the Catholic/Protestant divide without opening up the lines of communication and understanding.

And even if the two churches never re-unite, we all still need to be more open to what the other is saying and not be so judgmental.

And I hope that this post isn’t taken the wrong way. I am in no way searching out negative responses by giving my opinion about how both Protestants and Catholics need to be more open and understanding.

 

[EmergencyOps]

One, if not the major problem I have as a Protestant is listening to Catholics claim that the RCC is the one true church founded by Jesus.

Now I understand that Catholics are taught this idea, but why can’t Catholics understand how abrasive that is?

Amen. Very abrasive. And the Orthodox Church says the same thing. They also like to throw the word Truth around: “It’s too bad you don’t have the Truth…” and such. If you have the Truth, how come everyone keeps defecting from you? Jew, Orthodox, Protestant…

-Mark

 

[Uncle_Norbert]

True_Believer sez…“But at the same time, there are many things which Protestants say that offend me, as a Catholic, such as when they call themselves Christian in a way that makes it sound as if they are the only Christians. Or they ask when you were saved or if you have accepted Jesus as your PERSONAL lord and savior…”

I have had similar experiences thorough life. A Protestant asks me what religion I am, and when I say “I’m a Catholic”, they respond, “Well, I’m a Christian”…daaaaaa…and it’s usually the air of superiority they use in saying so.

Ironic, but I come from a Catholic family of six. The ONE of the six of us that was sent to Catholic school, is the ONE of the six of us who “officially” left the Catholic Church, to marry a Bible Church Youth Minister. They pulled the same stunt on me. Called one evening to ask if they could stop by. After being invited in, they sat on my sofa, looked at my wife (a convert) and I and asked “Do you have a PERSONAL relationship with Jesus Christ?”

It was all I could do not to throw them out in the street. What gall. What nerve. How Anti-Catholic and confrontational could they be? My sister grew up in the same home as I did. She clearly knows what my beliefs are. She was just there to challenge my Catholocism.

 

[Harpazo]

Namesake, don’t all Protestants claim some level of “having it all right?” Each sect broke off from the other claiming to have it right. If this weren’t so, they’d all be in union with each other, no?

Pace e Bene
Andrew

 

[briang72]

One, if not the major problem I have as a Protestant is listening to Catholics claim that the RCC is the one true church founded by Jesus.

Now I understand that Catholics are taught this idea, but why can’t Catholics understand how abrasive that is?

I think many do understand how abrasive it is, and therefore they don’t ever present the belief to Protestants.

Catholics are so exclusionary that some people get turned off by that attitude.

Can Catholics understand that Protestants really do not, and never would want to believe that the RCC is the one true church.

Are Catholics being exclusionary? The Church teaches that it has the fullness of truth, and that Protestant communities have a great measure of truth, but they are not in full communion with the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I think that is quite different than exclusionary.

And Catholics often make comments about the errors that Protestants make, but I see very few times when Catholics make comments about errors that Catholics make.

How long have you been on this forum? Do you ever read anything outside the non-catholic section? Catholics are in endless argument with each other in the other sections of the forum. It wouldn’t seem appropriate in the non-catholic section, but I’ll bet it happens here too.

It’s the issue of pride. For the vast majority of Protestants there is no issue at all about which church is true. The issue is all about Christianity for Protestants, for the most part.

"And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. "

Matthew 16:18

Can we at least agree that there was only one church that Christ came to build? If so, wouldn’t you want to be a member of that church? How can there truly be tens of thousands of versions of Christianity? Do you really believe that is what Christ envisioned for us, endless confusion?

As an example, I have never heard a Protestant say they are a devout Baptist. I hear from Catholics very often that they are devout Catholics. Protestants are much more likely to say they are devout Christians.

There is a lot of difference.

There is a lot of difference in what?

 

[blossom02]

It’s not that we think we are right it is that we know Jesus was always right and if Jesus tells us He would be with us always then He will. He promised that the fires of hell would not prevail against His church.

We need to trust Jesus. We know that He would never lie to us so why would we need another faith.

Maybe the catholic faith is alot more about faith in Jesus than you thought.

take another look.

If we don’t except the church He established then we don’t really trust Him, Do we?

 

[heathernoel]

One, if not the major problem I have as a Protestant is listening to Catholics claim that the RCC is the one true church founded by Jesus.

Now I understand that Catholics are taught this idea, but why can’t Catholics understand how abrasive that is?

Catholics are so exclusionary that some people get turned off by that attitude.

Can Catholics understand that Protestants really do not, and never would want to believe that the RCC is the one true church.

And Catholics often make comments about the errors that Protestants make, but I see very few times when Catholics make comments about errors that Catholics make.

It’s the issue of pride. For the vast majority of Protestants there is no issue at all about which church is true. The issue is all about Christianity for Protestants, for the most part.

As an example, I have never heard a Protestant say they are a devout Baptist. I hear from Catholics very often that they are devout Catholics. Protestants are much more likely to say they are devout Christians.

There is a lot of difference.

Gosh, I was there a few years ago. I am now in RCIA!

I think somehow in our society, we have decided that hurting someone’s feelings or a sense of right and wrong is just harsh. BUt the fact is, The Church can trace its roots directly back to Christ. Protestant churches can trace their roots back to a man…Luther. Big difference. I was once a Methodist, and I can’t believe that I ever took part in a religion founded by man!

THe second part is the devout issue. My aunt and uncle consider themselves devout Southern Baptists. I have heard that term used around Protestants before. But I would argue that there’s not much to be devout to. As a Catholic (or a wannabe )I am learning to be faithful to my rosary prayers (which are a Godsend!), days of Holy Obligation, Daily Mass…

I don’t know if I made my point or not. I am not as well read as most of the posters on this forum, but I felt the need to respond. Sometimes a heart felt answer is all that is needed.

 

[Namesake]

God would not want chaos. God is not a God of confusion. Having only one Church makes sense. After all, there is only one Jewish religion.

That isn’t true. There are lots of Jewish religions. There are even Godless Jews. I know several. My sister is a secular Jew. I don’t understand it but I know several people, very highly educated, who are secular Jews.

 

[Freshman88]

That isn’t true. There are lots of Jewish religions. There are even Godless Jews. I know several. My sister is a secular Jew. I don’t understand it but I know several people, very highly educated, who are secular Jews.

I believe a distinction should be made between post-Temple Judaism and Temple Judaism.

Temple Judaism was very much one - it was one people of God, one temple, one priesthood, one nation, one God.

It is this Temple Judaism that Christianity is a descendent of. Rabbinic Judaism which has the Talmud among other texts can be much more varied because it no longer has the Temple authority.

In many ways, the Catholic Church mirrors the Judaism of Christ - one authority.

 

[Namesake]

I believe a distinction should be made between post-Temple Judaism and Temple Judaism.

Temple Judaism was very much one - it was one people of God, one temple, one priesthood, one nation, one God.

It is this Temple Judaism that Christianity is a descendent of. Rabbinic Judaism which has the Talmud among other texts can be much more varied because it no longer has the Temple authority.

In many ways, the Catholic Church mirrors the Judaism of Christ - one authority.

The point is that there are several views within what we call Judaism. You do not seem to understand that very well. That’s OK.

 

[Freshman88]

For Protestants Christ is the center and the church does not equal Christ.

A well that is another difference we have. Catholics believe the Church is the mystical body of Christ, with Christ as the head. The Risen Lord is made present through His Church, by both the People of God and the Sacraments.

Now that is a little better. the “for us”. That softens it a bit, maybe just enough because it doesn’t sound so much like you absolutely know the truth regardless of what anyone else thinks.

I wish I could say I absolutley knew the Truth! I think any Catholic is fooling himself if they claim to have absolute faith. We are tempted every day. That said, don’t confuse my statement with a stance on subjectivism or some kind of relativism - Catholics believe there is an absolute Church and we believe it is found in the Church.

Not at all. I think you should believe as you wish, until you start believing that you are always right and Protestants are always wrong. That is a fundamental and for me a fatal flaw of the RCC. Catholics are very pushy people, some are.

Well - I’m sorry to say but that is the claim of the Church. She has the fullest expression of the Truth and so anything that is True belongs to the Church.

We have good reason to believe this though. Now that isn’t to say that Protestantism or other forms of Christianity are incorrect, we believe that wherever they agree with the Church, they are correct. It is only where Protestants and Catholics disagree that we believe Protestantism to be wrong. This I believe, is as natural as any other argument.

What is that argument? Whether there is one Church established by Christ himself that is to be guarded from error. Catholics believe that there is such a Church, and that Church is centred in Rome.

 

[Freshman88]

The point is that there are several views within what we call Judaism. You do not seem to understand that very well. That’s OK.

I don’t think you seem to understand that the Judaism of Jesus’ day was very much one form of Judaism - because it had a central authority.

The Judaism of today is more varied because there no longer exists a temple authority. The whole conservative, reformed and orthodox split is a much later development - originally Judaism was a single religion under a single authority.

 

[sodak]

The last time someone asked me if I was saved, I asked, “From what?”

Protestants tend to view church and religion very separately. For Catholics, the RCC, religion, and Christ are all one and the same. One head, one body, the Church is the Bride of Christ. Very, very intimate relationship. For us Catholics, to attack the RCC is to attack Jesus himself.

We also mean different things with our vocabulary, which can contribute to misunderstandings.

 

[Preacher_Vern]

Were does it say in the Bible that the Catholic Church is the true church? There is no true church but ONE and that is Jesus Christ. Peter cannot be the true church cause he had sin in his life.

 

[Freshman88]

Were does it say in the Bible that the Catholic Church is the true church? There is no true church but ONE and that is Jesus Christ. Peter cannot be the true church cause he had sin in his life.

I’m sorry but this is very confusing.

Those guys running around in acts, and those Churches established by Paul - that’s the Catholic Church. How do we know? We can trace our lineage via Church leaders straight back to them.

Also no Catholic will claim that Peter is the Church, we believe Peter was an apostle and the Earthly leader of the early Church.

Perhaps you misunderstand what is meant by “true Church”, it means that there is a valid Church, in other words that there is a valid people of God. That said your statement “There is no true church but ONE and that is Jesus Christ” seems to contradict itself.

 

[sodak]

One, if not the major problem I have as a Protestant is listening to Catholics claim that the RCC is the one true church founded by Jesus.

Now I understand that Catholics are taught this idea, but why can’t Catholics understand how abrasive that is?

Catholics are so exclusionary that some people get turned off by that attitude.

Can Catholics understand that Protestants really do not, and never would want to believe that the RCC is the one true church.

And Catholics often make comments about the errors that Protestants make, but I see very few times when Catholics make comments about errors that Catholics make.

It’s the issue of pride. For the vast majority of Protestants there is no issue at all about which church is true. The issue is all about Christianity for Protestants, for the most part.

As an example, I have never heard a Protestant say they are a devout Baptist. I hear from Catholics very often that they are devout Catholics. Protestants are much more likely to say they are devout Christians.

There is a lot of difference.

Hey Namesake,

How about practicing what you preach and quit asking strawman questions that are completely offensive to Catholics? Maybe you’ll get better responses if you quit being so offensive. Go to your thread on doctrinal error, I posted my reply there. As for this thread, after seeing what you’ve posted, try practicing what you preach.