A major problem.

[ralphinal]

I am learning to never say such stupid things to Catholics. Catholics cannot lose an argument!

We can and do lose arguments. However, either this (Catholic Church not founded by Christ) is a statement of your faith, to which we may disagree and go our separate ways, or this is an assertion of fact on your part that is different than ours. You present it as a statement of fact. Fine. We can provide proof of our position. Can you? Please point out what the correct Church is or was and complementary information. Or, change your assertion to a statement of faith, such as it is for Mormans.

 

[He_Man]

One, if not the major problem I have as a Protestant is listening to Catholics claim that the RCC is the one true church founded by Jesus.

Now I understand that Catholics are taught this idea, but why can’t Catholics understand how abrasive that is?

Catholics are so exclusionary that some people get turned off by that attitude.

Can Catholics understand that Protestants really do not, and never would want to believe that the RCC is the one true church.

And Catholics often make comments about the errors that Protestants make, but I see very few times when Catholics make comments about errors that Catholics make.

It’s the issue of pride. For the vast majority of Protestants there is no issue at all about which church is true. The issue is all about Christianity for Protestants, for the most part.

As an example, I have never heard a Protestant say they are a devout Baptist. I hear from Catholics very often that they are devout Catholics. Protestants are much more likely to say they are devout Christians.

There is a lot of difference.

It seems to be that if I didn’t believe with all my heart that Christ founded my Church, I wouldn’t be there. How can I follow a Church I don’t have any conviction for? Why am I there???

 

[Atlanta_Jen]

I am sure we all could go on and on about what Catholics
do wrong and what Protestants do wrong. Having grown
up a an overwhelmingly Protestant area of the country, everytime I told someone I was Catholic it was usually followed by a list of what is wrong with Catholics and their church or that their minister said Catholics arent Christians. So if it bothers your so much that we Catholics don´t treat other misbehaving Catholics as we do Protestants by stating our belief that the Catholic Church is the One True Church I hope next time someone is standing outside my Cathedral after Palm Sunday Mass saying we are all going to hell because we are Catholic, you will be there to correct your Protestant brother. I have never seen a Catholic standing outside a Protestant church doing the same. The is arrogance, that is being self centered.

This is exactly what I have to put up with. I am surrounded by fundamentalists who love to tell me what I believe and that they are worried for my soul. Then they get all offended when I defend my own faith. It’s cumbersome, really.

 

[Namesake]

We can and do lose arguments. However, either this (Catholic Church not founded by Christ) is a statement of your faith, to which we may disagree and go our separate ways, or this is an assertion of fact on your part that is different than ours. You present it as a statement of fact. Fine. We can provide proof of our position. Can you? Please point out what the correct Church is or was and complementary information. Or, change your assertion to a statement of faith, such as it is for Mormans.

You present proof that is only valid if one agrees with fundamental ideas, such as language.

Catholics are obsessed about the one true church and to my knowledge Protestants don’t really give that much if any thought. Catholics must defend the Church because they put so much emphasis on tradition. Protestants believe that tradition is not very valuable in many cases.

 

[He_Man]

You present proof that is only valid if one agrees with fundamental ideas, such as language.

Catholics are obsessed about the one true church and to my knowledge Protestants don’t really give that much if any thought.

How many one true Church’s can there be? I think the answer is the Protestants you refer to either have doubts about their Church’s unique truthfullness, or simply don’t want to examine it for what it is.

 

[ralphinal]

You present proof that is only valid if one agrees with fundamental ideas, such as language.

Catholics are obsessed about the one true church and to my knowledge Protestants don’t really give that much if any thought. Catholics must defend the Church because they put so much emphasis on tradition. Protestants believe that tradition is not very valuable in many cases.

May I please restate what I read into this post?

Protestants do not care if their Church was founded by Jesus or not. It means absolutely nothing if they are in the church started by Christ. Protestants do not put much emphasis on tradition of the Catholic Church, which includes an understanding that we should worship together in the why Christ intended. Instead, they rely on following a tradition of a faith started by a man who was not Christ.

Now, I do not think that this is what you mean to say. It is how I read it.

 

[Atlanta_Jen]

How many one true Church’s can there be? I think the answer is the Protestants you refer to either have doubts about their Church’s unique truthfullness, or simply don’t want to examine it for what it is.

Exactly. How can any church claim to be the True Church if it was “invented” 1500 or so years after Christ walked the earth?

 

[Namesake]

How many one true Church’s can there be? I think the answer is the Protestants you refer to either have doubts about their Church’s unique truthfullness, or simply don’t want to examine it for what it is.

Protestants that I know don’t even think about a true church. It’s like it doesn’t exist, which is exactly what I believe. There is no such thing and Catholics would be utterly destroyed if they came to realize that was the truth. But of course Catholics would say that it isn’t possible that they would ever realize that there was no such thing because the Catholic church is the one true church. Circular, but effective over time I guess.

Those arguments look kind of childish.

 

[mercygate]

I am learning to never say such stupid things to Catholics. Catholics cannot lose an argument!

What stupid things are you learning not to say?

Catholics can and do lose arguments. That’s really not important one way or another.

When you examine the Catholic faith as it is, however, outside an adversarial atmosphere, and see what the Catholic Church actually teaches, it DOES get more like the Catholic Church “cannot lose an argument” because the “argumentum” – the delineation of her doctrines – is grounded in Scripture, history, and tradition, and developed through the rigorous application of reason.

The Church has been defending the Person of Jesus Christ and his Bride – the Church – for 2000 years. Nothing anybody can throw at it has not been thrown at it a million times before in some form or another.

So the Catholic faith has been battle tested. It IS hard to “win” an argument against it. But then, you came to US with your complaint. We did not go over to “Protestant Answers” and whine that Protestant claims are irritating to us.

 

[Uncle_Norbert]

As to the “abrasive” issue, a quick spin through the Gospels reveals that Jesus was a tad abrasive himself. So, a case could be made, that abrasiveness is spreading the word is highly scriptural…something to ponder, especially for the “Sola Scripture” crowd.

 

[Namesake]

What stupid things are you learning not to say?

Catholics can and do lose arguments. That’s really not important one way or another.

When you examine the Catholic faith as it is, however, outside an adversarial atmosphere, and see what the Catholic Church actually teaches, it DOES get more like the Catholic Church “cannot lose an argument” because the “argumentum” – the delineation of her doctrines – is grounded in Scripture, history, and tradition, and developed through the rigorous application of reason.

The Church has been defending the Person of Jesus Christ and his Bride – the Church – for 2000 years. Nothing anybody can throw at it has not been thrown at it a million times before in some form or another.

So the Catholic faith has been battle tested. It IS hard to “win” an argument against it. But then, you came to US with your complaint. We did not go over to “Protestant Answers” and whine that Protestant claims are irritating to us.

Well, that isn’t true. I came here because I was thinking about converting. Catholics win arguments by shouting people down and by hiding behind circular logic. Catholics cannot lose arguments because they are, well, so dogmatic.

 

[He_Man]

Protestants that I know don’t even think about a true church. It’s like it doesn’t exist, which is exactly what I believe. There is no such thing and Catholics would be utterly destroyed if they came to realize that was the truth. But of course Catholics would say that it isn’t possible that they would ever realize that there was no such thing because the Catholic church is the one true church. Circular, but effective over time I guess.

Those arguments look kind of childish.

So if there is no one true Church, what does that say about the myriad of Christian religions and denominations?

I think most people would agree, here are really two options:

1. They are either all false, (or lacking complete truth)
2. one of them is true. More than one can’t be true, since no two agree on everything.

So which is it? None true, or one true?

You seem to think this is a battle for pride for Catholics. Far from it. It is a simply matter of following the truth. It is so hard for me to understand why ANYONE would follow anything they didn’t believe to be the truth.

Again, if the truth does not lie with your Church, why follow it?

If it does not lie with any Church, why should I follow any religion at all? I can live a life of false promises and deception on my own and still “love Jesus”; I don’t need religion for that!

 

[Namesake]

So if there is no one true Church, what does that say about the myriad of Christian religions and denominations?

I think most people would agree, here are really two options:

1. They are either all false, (or lacking complete truth)
2. one of them is true. More than one can’t be true, since no two agree on everything.

So which is it? None true, or one true?

You seem to think this is a battle for pride for Catholics. Far from it. It is a simply matter of following the truth. It is so hard for me to understand why ANYONE would follow anything they didn’t believe to be the truth.

Again, if the truth does not lie with your Church, why follow it?

If it does not lie with any Church, why should I follow any religion at all? I can live a life of false promises and deception on my own and still “love Jesus”; I don’t need religion for that!

I don’t think anyone has a lock on the truth and when someone starts spouting off that they do I decide that they are fools.

 

[mercygate]

Protestants that I know don’t even think about a true church. It’s like it doesn’t exist, which is exactly what I believe. There is no such thing and Catholics would be utterly destroyed if they came to realize that was the truth. But of course Catholics would say that it isn’t possible that they would ever realize that there was no such thing because the Catholic church is the one true church. Circular, but effective over time I guess.

Those arguments look kind of childish.

Um, curious comment in the circumstances.

The Catholic argument is not circular. Jesus promised that the jaws of hell would not prevail against “HIS” church. The one he promised to build upon the rock of Peter and Peter’s faith. Peter is the guy Jesus promised to give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven (reserving to Himself the keys of death and hell (Rev. 1:18). The historic record goes straight back to the Upper Room where Jesus “breathed on them” – the apostles – and committed the Holy Spirit to them for forgiving and retaining sins; it goes back to the room where the Holy Spirit descended in tongues of fire upon those who were waiting in Jerusalem as Christ commanded. There is nothing at all circular about the Catholic position.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

That is a major problem for me. Every time I hear a Catholic proclaim that they are right and Protestants are wrong it’s a huge turn off. I have been hearing that since I was a little kid and it was a turn off then. Such ridiculous arrogance.

Arrogance? You mean like the arrogance it took C.H. Spurgeon the “Prince of Preachers” to proclaim that he would rather be a Devil than a Priest?

I would sooner be a devil than be a priest!
Of all pretensions on earth, there is none so
detestable as the pretense of being able to
bestow grace upon men, and of standing
between their souls and God. Spurgeon, “Obedience Better than Sacrifice”

Arrogance like when Thomas Watson a 17th century puritan and Christian writer called our Sacraments, “a bundle of ridiculous ceremonies”?

What is the popish religion, but a bundle of ridiculous
ceremonies! Their candles, beads, crucifixes; what are
these but Satan’s policy, to dress up a carnal worship,
fitted to carnal minds! Thomas Watson, “The Ten Commandments”

Or the arrogance it took the English Nonconformist John Angell James to write that the three great works of the devil were:

The three great works of the devil are . . .
Idolatry,
Mohammedanism,
and Popery.

We are aware of the dreadful nature of Popery. We regard
Popery as the masterpiece of Satanic deceit and malice
–his richest trophy, and his proudest triumph. The Pope is
more Satan’s Vicar, than that of Christ, upon earth. And
the Vatican his chosen seat of dominion among men.* John Angell James, “Christian Hope” 1859*

Is this the kind of arrogance that we are talking about? I didn’t even include the quotes from Martin Luther, the “Glorious Reformer.”

It goes both ways, but I have to wonder why what the Catholic Church has to say about itself (calling it the one True Church) is a bigger turn off then what protestants have to say about Catholics?

God bless you

 

[Namesake]

Um, curious comment in the circumstances.

The Catholic argument is not circular. Jesus promised that the jaws of hell would not prevail against “HIS” church. The one he promised to build upon the rock of Peter and Peter’s faith. Peter is the guy Jesus promised to give the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven (reserving to Himself the keys of death and hell (Rev. 1:18). The historic record goes straight back to the Upper Room where Jesus “breathed on them” – the apostles – and committed the Holy Spirit to them for forgiving and retaining sins; it goes back to the room where the Holy Spirit descended in tongues of fire upon those who were waiting in Jerusalem as Christ commanded. There is nothing at all circular about the Catholic position.

Of course not, I forgot who I was addressing.

 

[He_Man]

Well, that isn’t true. I came here because I was thinking about converting. Catholics win arguments by shouting people down and by hiding behind circular logic. Catholics cannot lose arguments because they are, well, so dogmatic.

We do not win or lose arguments. The religion and Her tenets speaks for itself.

You KNEW when you came here there was going to be a debate! So why bother, if you don’t want to be debated?? Simply do your homework and decide if the Catholic Church is the place for you or not privately. But what did you expect from a PUBLIC, CATHOLIC INTERNET message board? Did you think people would be indifferent to whether or not the Catholic Church possessed the truth??

Look, if you don’t like us, fine. But to not choose to follow a religion because you don’t like certain people is silly.

Either Church A is the truth, or it isn’t. My feelings about the members of that Church ar irrelevant.

 

[ralphinal]

Namesake,
Do you feel that Jesus founded a Church at all? If there is no true church, why did he pray that we “might be one” as he and the Father are one? If he did not found a church, how did he expect the faith to continue? How was it to be protected and spread?

 

[He_Man]

I don’t think anyone has a lock on the truth and when someone starts spouting off that they do I decide that they are fools.

I feel the same way about people who aren’t concerned whether or not what they believe is true.

Nice to meet you too.

 

[jmcrae]

Protestants that I know don’t even think about a true church. It’s like it doesn’t exist, which is exactly what I believe.

The entire New Testament stands in contradiction to this idea. Jesus obviously intended to establish a Church - He spends an entire chapter of John’s Gospel praying for it. (Chapter 17)

He refers to it over and over again in reference to St. Peter - He even gives St. Peter his name, and says “Upon this Peter I shall establish my Church.” (Matthew 16:18-19)

There is no such thing and Catholics would be utterly destroyed if they came to realize that was the truth.

Actually, even if the Catholic Church turns out to be “just one more denomination,” it’s still the best place to be with regard to coherent liturgy, business organization, and opportunities for Christian service. But the historical evidence that this is the one Jesus was talking about in the Gospels, and as far as being the inheritor of the Church we find in the Book of Acts, the Catholic Church is the only one with any kind of claim at all - everything else arrives too late in history to even bother to stake a claim.