It’s a total waste of time to have this discussion because you are Catholic and are totally rigid in your dogma. That is the very nature of the RCC, it seems. Not an attractive characteristic from my point of view.Namesake,
Do you feel that Jesus founded a Church at all? If there is no true church, why did he pray that we “might be one” as he and the Father are one? If he did not found a church, how did he expect the faith to continue? How was it to be protected and spread?
Oh please. Then you obviously aren’t a fundamentalist and have never come into contact with any fundamentalists. Fundamentalists take great delight in believing that Catholics aren’t even Christians (and telling us so), and that everyone who hasn’t “accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior”, and said a “sinner’s prayer” followed by a full immersion baptism is going to hell, regardless of whether the person has ever even heard of Jesus. Even then, if you aren’t in a “bible believing (by their definition) church” your testimony is suspect, and you may not “really” be saved.Catholics believe they are the correct Christians and everyone else is wrong. Protestants aren’t nearly that self centered.
You may leave the sarcasm at the door.Of course not, I forgot who I was addressing.
My experience here brings back memories from my childhood growing up in a mostly Catholic area. Most of my close friends were Catholic. They all, every one of them, had the same attitude as most here have. They would always present their views as the absolute truth because that was what the Church, pope, teaches. There was never real discussion because they had been taught that Protestants are wrong and Catholics are right.Oh please. Then you obviously aren’t a fundamentalist and have never come into contact with any fundamentalists. Fundamentalists take great delight in believing that Catholics aren’t even Christians (and telling us so), and that everyone who hasn’t “accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior”, and said a “sinner’s prayer” followed by a full immersion baptism is going to hell, regardless of whether the person has ever even heard of Jesus. Even then, if you aren’t in a “bible believing (by their definition) church” your testimony is suspect, and you may not “really” be saved.
Yes, we Catholics believe the Catholic Church is the one founded by Christ. And yes, you can trace that back historically, through the popes back to Peter himself, and the doctrines in the writings of the Early Church Fathers. BUT, we don’t go around condemning everyone else to hell. In fact, the Church will only say who is for sure in heaven, she never makes a pronouncement on whether anyone is in hell. And we acknowledge that nonCatholic churches, and even some nonChristian religions, contain elements of Truth, just not the “fullness” of Truth. Show me one Baptist who thinks a Muslim or Buddhist could possibly go to heaven, you can’t. But the Church herself teaches that it is possible for nonChristians, although not easy, to be saved (and if they are saved, it is due to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross and the Grace channeled through his Church-yes, the Catholic Church-that makes it possible).
In Christ,
Ellen
Ah. That is where we part company.I don’t think anyone has a lock on the truth and when someone starts spouting off that they do I decide that they are fools.
See what I mean? Catholics just cannot come out last. They are incapable of …oh well, you will just deny whatever I say regardless of it’s value.Ah. That is where we part company.
Catholics are PASSIONATE about the truth. And according to the scripturally grounded principles of the divine and natural moral law, we believe, not only that there IS such a thing as Truth, but that much truth about the world and God can be known through natural reason. We also believe in the Truth of Divine Revelation. And we believe that Truth is perfectly embodied in the Person of Jesus Christ.
In other words, you are not willing to discuss because I hold to my faith? To me, someone who holds fast to their faith and can explain why is a admirable person. Would you rather that Catholics be tossed by the winds? Would Christ not want Christians to be “rigid” in their faith?It’s a total waste of time to have this discussion because you are Catholic and are totally rigid in your dogma. That is the very nature of the RCC, it seems. Not an attractive characteristic from my point of view.
In other words, nothing I say will be acceptable to you because you are Catholic.
Not sure what you’re pointing to.Well, that isn’t true. I came here because I was thinking about converting. Catholics win arguments by shouting people down and by hiding behind circular logic. Catholics cannot lose arguments because they are, well, so dogmatic.
There aren’t any questions left to ask. This experience has answered everything I needed answered to make a decision, thank you very much!Not sure what you’re pointing to.
Yes: the Catholic faith is a faith of doctrinal precision – dogma. That’s one of her best features.
If you are “thinking about converting” wouldn’t it be more fruitful to come without the chip on your shoulder?
You could ask, for example: WHY does the Catholic Church claim to be the Church founded by Christ himself?
THAT is a question.
“You Catholics sizzle my grits with your childish arrogance about the one true Church” is NOT a question. It does not set you up for a gentle and genuine response.
What have you said that makes a case?See what I mean? Catholics just cannot come out last. They are incapable of …oh well, you will just deny whatever I say regardless of it’s value.
You don’t have discussions. You are so wrapped up in Catholicism that there is no room for discussion. I think I understand that. I think it’s because you are taught to react that way to Protestants, or Muslims. That’s the way it was when I was a kid. The Catholics wouldn’t discuss, they would just spout dogma, mindlessly. So they always won because us Protestants would just shrug and give up because they were so rigid and unpleasant about those things.In other words, you are not willing to discuss because I hold to my faith? To me, someone who holds fast to their faith and can explain why is a admirable person. Would you rather that Catholics be tossed by the winds? Would Christ not want Christians to be “rigid” in their faith?
What you say may be acceptable. I would like to see where you are coming from. Most of my time on this site is spent in discourse with Muslims. Trust me, they are as rigid as anyone. I like to see where people are coming from.
No, I will not convert. I have my reasons that I remain Catholic. None of them have anything to do with what someone says to tells me. They are all a result of my own study.
I do not question that you were considering to convert. My only question would be why. If you do not feel that any church is correct or that the Catholic church is the one founded by Christ, what does it matter? Or, if there are more important things involved to you, why do you let this stop you?
You mean you are not a kid?My experience here brings back memories from my childhood growing up in a mostly Catholic area. Most of my close friends were Catholic. They all, every one of them, had the same attitude as most here have. They would always present their views as the absolute truth because that was what the Church, pope, teaches. There was never real discussion because they had been taught that Protestants are wrong and Catholics are right.
In the church I grew up in there was never a discussion or teachings about how right we were. It isn’t important. We spent our time learning about Jesus.
Before talking about “spouting” mindless anything or being unpleasant about anything, reread my post #74.You don’t have discussions. You are so wrapped up in Catholicism that there is no room for discussion. I think I understand that. I think it’s because you are taught to react that way to Protestants, or Muslims. That’s the way it was when I was a kid. The Catholics wouldn’t discuss, they would just spout dogma, mindlessly. So they always won because us Protestants would just shrug and give up because they were so rigid and unpleasant about those things.
Is the issue that we have an organized faith system with multiple referrences upon which I can draw? You say that we just “mindlessly spout dogma.” If you are from a position without dogmas, I can see why this is bad. Being Catholic is like being a chemist. We have all of the information that supports our claims. We have no claims that we cannot prove or support. True, some have stronger support than others. If you want to argue with a chemist, you must DISPROVE what they beleive. Otherwise, they will refer to past experiments and proven facts.You don’t have discussions. You are so wrapped up in Catholicism that there is no room for discussion. I think I understand that. I think it’s because you are taught to react that way to Protestants, or Muslims. That’s the way it was when I was a kid. The Catholics wouldn’t discuss, they would just spout dogma, mindlessly. So they always won because us Protestants would just shrug and give up because they were so rigid and unpleasant about those things.
Hear hear.So if there is no one true Church, what does that say about the myriad of Christian religions and denominations?
I think most people would agree, here are really two options:
So which is it? None true, or one true?
- They are either all false, (or lacking complete truth)
- one of them is true. More than one can’t be true, since no two agree on everything.
You seem to think this is a battle for pride for Catholics. Far from it. It is a simply matter of following the truth. It is so hard for me to understand why ANYONE would follow anything they didn’t believe to be the truth.
Again, if the truth does not lie with your Church, why follow it?
If it does not lie with any Church, why should I follow any religion at all? I can live a life of false promises and deception on my own and still “love Jesus”; I don’t need religion for that!
I have found that I am in no way a match for Catholics. I am pretty sure that my academic credentials are vastly more impressive than most people here. But people here do not argue from a position of truth at all. They argue from dogma. Therefore a real meaningful discussion can’t be had.What have you said that makes a case?
“I don’t believe anybody has a lock on the truth.”
“I don’t believe there is such a thing as a true church.”
Those aren’t “arguments.” They are statements floating in thin air. Reactive, emotional statements that do not rise even to the level of respectable opinion.
OK. I see that my statement will be offensive to you. But Namesake, what is your background in history? religion? and training in logic?
Are we talking to a fifteen-year-old with little training in the art of logical process? or are we talking to a secularized generic Christian whose creed is complete relativism? Are we talking with somebody for whom faith is “personal” and “spiritual” but without dogmatic underpinnings?
See what I mean: if you are 15 and completely untaught, we need to approach your “issues” differently from the way we would if you are a college graduate with a degree in political science.
OK, so, let me get this straight. You’ve come into a forum full of Catholics and you are expecting them to … what, exactly? Give up their beliefs in deference to yours (and what your beliefs are, is not entirely clear)? I don’t understand what it is you want from this discussion.I have found that I am in no way a match for Catholics. I am pretty sure that my academic credentials are vastly more impressive than most people here. But people here do not argue from a position of truth at all. They argue from dogma. Therefore a real meaningful discussion can’t be had.
I’m pretty beat up right now. I need a little break from this scourging. I have some bad memories of similar things happening when I was a kid. Catholic kids ganging up on me and just beating the tar out of me with their rote dogma.Namesake,
I am sorry if I have in any way offended you. I am truly trying to understand your position. I think that your last post to Mercygate helped me to do so.
Am I correct that you do not accept any Catholic dogmas as being “truth?”