A Mass for Sinners

[CradleCath]

I think that this morning I finally realized another reason that I find the Traditional Latin Mass is the right one for me. As I read the ancient prayers this morning, I realized that the TLM is a Mass for sinners…while the Novus Ordo is a Mass for Saints. I am a sinner & the pleading prayers give me hope that God will forgive me.

The Novus Ordo begins with the Confiteor which asks for forgiveness for sin. It asks God, the Virgin Mary, St. Michael the Archangel. It asks our brethren gathered here for forgiveness. It then moves on to the Kyrie, if I remember right. (It’s been two years since I’ve attended a Novus Ordo Mass & I found it very forgettable, so if I make a mistake let me know.)

Here is the first big difference between the two Masses. The priest first says the Confiteor for forgiveness for his own sins. The second Confiteor is said by the altar boys (they represent the congregation) begging for forgiveness for themselves & us. Before we move to the Kyrie, before the priest even approaches the Altar, he prays for worthiness for both himself & for us. We do the same:

"May almighty God have mercy upon you, forgive you your sins, & bring you to life everlasting. Thou shalt turn again, O God & quicken us and Thy people shall rejoice in Thee. Show unto us, O Lord, Thy mercy & grant us Thy salvation. O Lork, hear my prayer and let my cry come unto Thee.

The Lord be with you,
and with Thy Spirit.

(As the priest approaches the Altar he prays)
Take away from us our iniquities, we beseech Thee, O Lord, that we may be worthy to enter with pure minds into the Holy of Holies, Through Christ, Our Lord, Amen.

"(Then placing his joined hands on the Altar & bowing deeply, he says):
We beseech Thee, O LOrd, by the merits of Thy Saints whose relics are here and of all the Saints, that Thou wouldst vouchsafe to forgive me all my sins. Amen".
Next comes the Introit & the Krie Eleison.

Does anyone else find these prayers to be more penitent, show more humility, put more reliance on God for our Salvation…than the prayers in the Novus Ordo?

I’m truly not trying to do the “My Mass is better than your’s” thing here.
Since this is the Traditional Catholic Forum, I thought it would be safe to ask whether anyone else who attends the TLM. notices how much difference there is in the tone of the prayers. Let me know. They give me, a sinner, solace.

 

[Timothysis]

I’m truly not trying to do the “My Mass is better than your’s” thing here.

 

[LilyM]

No, in the Novus Ordo Confiteor one isn’t asking one’s brothers and sisters for forgiveness at all. We confess to them that we are sinners, but that’s not the same thing as asking their forgiveness.

It’s asking for them to “PRAY FOR ME TO THE LORD OUR GOD”. In other words when I pray it I ask everyone gathered there with me to pray for God’s mercy upon me. And hearing this reminds me that I too need to pray for mercy for others as well as myself, since each congregant is asking the same of me in return.

And the Confiteor is in fact followed by a similar prayer of absolution to the one in the TLM - ‘May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins, and bring us to everlasting life’.

This asking of one’s brothers and sisters to pray for one, if memory serves, is NOT something the TLM confiteor does, since the Confiteor there is only addressed to ‘tibi, pater’ and not our fellow congregants.

I don’t know about you, but I need all the prayers for mercy I can get - from everyone, and not just the priest and the altar boys. And I need that reminder to beseech God’s mercy on my brothers and sisters as well.

Overall there isn’t any highly significant difference in the sentiment or the wording, except the TLM repeats the point to make an emphasis. If you’re the sort of person who needs to be told something half a dozen times in a row before it sinks in, that may well be an advantage for you.

Of course I don’t mean to suggest that the point doesn’t bear repeating, but then why stop where the TLM does? Why not have five Confiteors scattered throughout various points of the Mass? ten? a dozen?

 

[Onegin]

Someone can correct me if I am wrong, but I read in the notes to one of the 1962 Missals that the reason the Priest raises his voice while uttering the phrase “Nobis quoque peccatoribus (To us also Thy sinful servants)” during the Canon of the Mass is to humble himself not only in front of God but in front of the congregation as well, who are able to hear his words.

I thought this was particularly noteworthy because there are many parts during the Mass where the Priest refers to himself as “Thy sinful servant.”

Two prayers that wonderfully highlight your point about the penitential role of the Priest in the TLM come to mind:

The first is the Prayer for Grace which follows the Consecration:

Let not the partaking of Thy Body, O Lord Jesus Christ, which I, though unworthy, presume to receive, turn to my judgment and condemnation; but through Thy mercy may it be unto me a safeguard and a healing remedy both of soul and body. Who livest and reignest with God the Father, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God, world without end. Amen.

The other is the Last Blessing:

May the tribute of my homage be pleasing to Thee, O most holy Trinity. Grant that the Sacrifice which I, unworthy as I am, have offered in the presence of Thy Majesty, may be acceptable to Thee. Through Thy mercy may it bring forgiveness to me and to all for whom I have offered it. Through Christ our Lord. Amen.

I won’t comment on the Canon of the OF, since I am not familiar enough with it nor have I studied the prayers, but the TLM is both a Mass of thanksgiving and a Mass of penance. The Priest both thanks God for the many graces He bestows upon us through the Holy Eucharist and likewise humbly pleads with God for mercy on behalf of himself and the people, whom are all unworthy to accept these sacred gifts.

Also, despite LilyM’s comments, the repetition in the TLM is not just mindless parroting to get a message to “sink in”. If you notice, during the Mass, many of the most important phrases are repeated 3 times (“Agnus Dei”, “Kyrie”, “Mea Culpa”, “Domine non sum dignus”, etc). Tradition has always held the number 3 to be the perfect number, the number of the Trinity, etc. There’s a reason that everything is done 3 times but unfortunately, for many, this has lost it’s meaning and the repetition has taken on litte more significance than an exercise to “get the point across”.

 

[CradleCath]

No, in the Novus Ordo Confiteor one isn’t asking one’s brothers and sisters for forgiveness at all. We confess to them that we are sinners, but that’s not the same thing as asking their forgiveness.

You are right about that, I expressed myself poorly. I just assume when I admit to my brother’s & sister’s that I am a sinner…they will pray for me, as I will pray for them.

Of course, as we end the **priest’s **Confiteor, he “beseechs blessed Mary ever Virgin, blessed Michael the Archangel, blessed John The Baptist , the Holy Apostles Peter & Paul, all the saints & ** you, brethren to pray for me to the Lord Our God”.
**I

In our Confiteor, we end it by asking for the priest to pray to the Lord, Our God, for us.
(et te, pater, orare pro me ad Dominum Deum nostrum.)

I like that because it humanizes the priest, as a man asking for my prayers, while at the same time, he is praying for me.

t’s asking for them to “PRAY FOR ME TO THE LORD OUR GOD”. In other words when I pray it I ask everyone gathered there with me to pray for God’s mercy upon me. And hearing this reminds me that I too need to pray for mercy for others as well as myself, since each congregant is asking the same of me in return.

 

[stuart12]

I agree with you.

As has been mentioned previously, I also love the final prayer the priest says just before the blessing…‘Placeat tibi, sancta Trinitas…’. A final plea for the acceptance of the Holy Sacrifice.

 

[LilyM]

I like that because it humanizes the priest, as a man asking for my prayers, while at the same time, he is praying for me.

 

[puzzleannie]

there is one Mass. it is celerated in various rites, but it is stil Mass. that being said I was thinking just today there is something a lot more solemn and contrition-inducing about saying Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa as we strike the breast, than there is in particularly the 2nd & 3rd options for the penitential rite in the OF

 

[Bbigam]

It’s interesting that you would bring it up like this - when I go to an EF Mass, I miss saying the Confiteor, since I’m used to saying it with everyone in the OF Mass. I know that in the EF Mass the altar boys say it for the people, but I appreciate that we all say it in the OF Mass.

(When the Confiteor option is chosen, of course - I realize that in some parishes it is rarely used. I am blessed to be in a parish where we use it pretty much always for Sundays and Holy Days, as well as some weekdays. I rather wish it was the only option for the Penitential Rite.)

 

[Timothysis]

You needn’t have invited the comparison between the two forms of the Mass if you only expected to hear from your fellow TLM devotees.

What would be wrong with saying ‘I love the Penitential Rite of the TLM - I find it very moving and uplifting and admirably suited for it purpose’ and giving reasons why, and then leaving it at that? Why the need to even mention the NO? Why this need to say ‘it’s better’ rather than simply ‘it’s great’?

An excellent question deserving of an equally excellent answer.

 

[CradleCath]

I agree with you.

As has been mentioned previously, I also love the final prayer the priest says just before the blessing…‘Placeat tibi, sancta Trinitas…’. A final plea for the acceptance of the Holy Sacrifice.

Thank you both, onegin & stuart12, for your posts. Maybe a little explanation is needed here. My brother is terminally ill & we’re trying to keep him at home as long as possible. He called this morning & needed one of his medications refilled. My husband went to early Mass this morning, so when my brother called, I calculated quickly…decided I could pick up his prescription & take it to him before Mass. So I was running around trying to get dressed for Mass, get the dishes done, take out the trash, etc. When my husband entered the house with a big smile on his face…what did I say?? I said, “please don’t put your jacket on the dining room table…hang it up” & then I took off. By the time I arrived at Mass, I was feeling pretty bad about my words. In fact, I called him on my cell phone on the way & apologized.

Still, what a hateful way to greet someone who loves me!!! I do pray to be made more patient & kind, but I don’t think I pray often & long enough.
When I finally got to Mass, the consoling words of the priest praying the TLM. brought me peace. I especially appreciated the Prayer for Sanctification:

"O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the living God, Who according to the will of the Father, through the cooperation of the Holy Ghost, hast by thy death given life to the world…deliver me by this, Thy most sacred Body & Blood from all of my inquities and from all evils, and make me adhere to Thy Commandments. Never suffer me to be separated from Thee, Who with the same God the Father and the Holy Ghost, livest & reignest, God, forever & ever. Amen.

I do not remember this kind of penitential supplication in the N.O. And, as I said, I am a sinner, who can’t seem to be “good” on my own.

 

[CradleCath]

I’m sure that you didn’t see the reason, but I’m trying to work out a few things in my own mind. I did NOT find much penitence & supplication in the Novus Ordo & it did not bring me peace. I am trying to understand WHY?

I started with the Confiteor because the NO., if I remember right, starts with it. In the Tlm. we have many prayers before the Confiteor & it is part of the prayers at the foot of the altar. Another part is the Judica Me, Deus…Judge me not, O God…send forth thy light & the truth. They have conducted me & brought me to Thy holy hill & into Thy Tabernacle. I mentioned that all of this takes place before the priest approaches the altar. We are praying to be worthy of the Mass.
Hopefully, you can see why I think that this is a Mass for sinners. If you can’t, so be it. I won’t argue anymore about it. This thread was intended to examine my own emotions & those of fellow Trads. If you are happy with the Novus Ordo, I am very happy for you.

 

[Onegin]

Thanks, CradleCath. I agree with your statements about the TLM being a penitential Mass.

For people who are nitpicking about bringing up the OF as a comparison - this is necessary for many traditionalists to explain the “why” of why we love the TLM, and why we make an effort to get there.

I can’t be intellectually honest with you all and say that I love the TLM and the OF equally and that there is absolutely no difference for me in either one, and the only reason I attend the TLM is that it is more aesthetically pleasing. This would be a lie. There are substantive differences between the two that have made me choose one form and, because of this, i think it is legitimate to highlight these differences in a respectful way.

For those who only attend the OF and have no interest at all as to why some traditionalists prefer certain elements of the TLM to the OF then, with all due respect, why are you adding (name removed by moderator)ut to this topic? And why are you posting in the traditional forum at all? There should not really be this level of bickering in threads that were not intended to start a debate.

 

[CradleCath]

Thanks, CradleCath. I agree with your statements about the TLM being a penitential Mass.

For people who are nitpicking about bringing up the OF as a comparison - this is necessary for many traditionalists to explain the “why” of why we love the TLM, and why we make an effort to get there.

 

[Like]

Thanks, CradleCath. I agree with your statements about the TLM being a penitential Mass.

For people who are nitpicking about bringing up the OF as a comparison - this is necessary for many traditionalists to explain the “why” of why we love the TLM, and why we make an effort to get there.

I can’t be intellectually honest with you all and say that I love the TLM and the OF equally and that there is absolutely no difference for me in either one, and the only reason I attend the TLM is that it is more aesthetically pleasing. This would be a lie. There are substantive differences between the two that have made me choose one form and, because of this, i think it is legitimate to highlight these differences in a respectful way.

For those who only attend the OF and have no interest at all as to why some traditionalists prefer certain elements of the TLM to the OF then, with all due respect, why are you adding (name removed by moderator)ut to this topic? And why are you posting in the traditional forum at all? There should not really be this level of bickering in threads that were not intended to start a debate.

Onegin, Thank you very much! This is something I’ve let bother me for a long time. WHY, do OF people feel the need to jump into this forum & chastise the TLM’ers for their beliefs & opinions?

If you find the OF reverent, holy & satisfied then so be it. Personally I don’t & am fighting the devil right now just to remain in the Church. I have no choice but to attend the OF as the only TLM Mass would require me to hop a plane.

My parish has 2 smaller mission Churches about 30 one way & I have been attending there due to there are less abuses than the main Church & the locals are more accepting. Even then there is no place on the island to go to confession behind a screen.

CradleCath, Thank you for this thread and God bless all.

 

[lelhajj]

My personal opinion about the repetition of some phrases during mass or while praying the Rosary is that sometimes we just repeat phrases without even being fully conscious of what we are repeating or saying. I like to pray the Rosary, which is really a repetition of phrases, day after day, but there is a special difference when you really start thinking, realizing each wound that our Lord suffered because of us, the great suffering that He must have endured! sometimes while praying the Rosary, it makes me cry all the suffering our Lord must have been through, for us, such insignificant and sinful people! while you are in such a state, every word we pray and repeat takes a total different meaning and feeling in ourselves. It is not important how many times we repeat a phrase but, how do we feel inside ourselves every time we repeat. As i said before, this is just my personal opinion, some people might disagree or agree with me, but, here i am just sharing my point of view.

 

[jonpd]

It’s interesting that you would bring it up like this - when I go to an EF Mass, I miss saying the Confiteor, since I’m used to saying it with everyone in the OF Mass. I know that in the EF Mass the altar boys say it for the people, but I appreciate that we all say it in the OF Mass.

(When the Confiteor option is chosen, of course - I realize that in some parishes it is rarely used. I am blessed to be in a parish where we use it pretty much always for Sundays and Holy Days, as well as some weekdays. I rather wish it was the only option for the Penitential Rite.)

When I am at the EF Mass I am following along in the missal, so I say the Confiteor to myself along with the altar boys. Just because you are not praying out loud does not mean that you are not praying.

 

[CradleCath]

It’s interesting that you would bring it up like this - when I go to an EF Mass, I miss saying the Confiteor, since I’m used to saying it with everyone in the OF Mass. I know that in the EF Mass the altar boys say it for the people, but I appreciate that we all

say it in the OF Mass.

Does your TLM. Church have the Latin Missalettes in the pews. If they do, you’ll realize that we say both Confiteors, silently. In fact we say all the prayers…just not aloud.

(

When the Confiteor option is chosen, of course - I realize that in some parishes it is rarely used. I am blessed to be in a parish where we use it pretty much always for Sundays and Holy Days, as well as some weekdays.

Yes, you’re blessed. The parish I attended before Summorum Pontificum, never prayed the Confiteor & it’s such a beautiful prayer.

 

[CradleCath]

Onegin, Thank you very much! This is something I’ve let bother me for a long time. WHY, do OF people feel the need to jump into this forum & chastise the TLM’ers for their beliefs & opinions?

If you find the OF reverent, holy & satisfied then so be it. Personally I don’t & am fighting the devil right now just to remain in the Church. I have no choice but to attend the OF as the only TLM Mass would require me to hop a plane.

My parish has 2 smaller mission Churches about 30 one way & I have been attending there due to there are less abuses than the main Church & the locals are more accepting. Even then there is no place on the island to go to confession behind a screen.

CradleCath, Thank you for this thread and God bless all.

Oh my goodness, I am so sorry that you have so few choices. God bless you & keep you in the Church until you find a Mass that will bring you peace. I will pray for you.

PS. I need the screen for Confession, myself.

 

[Monica37]

I agree with this thread too. I also like the 2nd Confetior right before Communion. I usually feel very unworthy to receive and saying it again and getting absolution right before Communion gives me some peace of mind. I also think receiving on my knees adds to the feeling that Communion is a **gift **that I am grateful to receive. I know who I am and what I’ve done so all of these things simply make it easier for me to feel like I may be worthy of receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of my Lord and Savior. I am usually really bad at clarifying how I feel about this, but if there were just one thing I would want it would be to receive kneeling and on the tongue. I still don’t understand the change to standing and in the hand, but God knows we have had more than enough threads on that. I just mention it because it makes sense in the context of the TLM having more emphasis on penance.