A Mass for Sinners

[Timothysis]

I rest my case.

Back at ya!

 

[Lujack]

Tim

You obviously have a lot of animosity toward traditionals. If you can’t stomach us, what are you doing here? Remember, too, the old and true saying about when you point your finger at someone, four point back at you.

You know, that’s not entirely fair. There are people out there who attend OF Masses regularly, but take an interest in the EF and other traditional Catholic spirituality. Those people can be hurt when the Mass that they attend on a regular basis is denigrated as untruly Catholic.

 

[mick321]

You’re right, of course. However, I do appreciate everyone saying the Confiteor aloud (along with many of the other Mass parts, and hearing the Eucharistic Prayer aloud).

That said, there’s much about the EF that I appreciate as well. I think it’s a real shame that that Prayers at the Foot of the Altar were totally abolished, and so many of the genuflections, and that in practice ad orientem was mostly abolished, and so on…

In our twice weekly Extraordinary Form Masses, the faithful are responsible for the same responses as the altar servers. In Sunday morning high Mass the responses are sung. In Tuesday evening low Mass, the responses are spoken. The faithful also chant the hymns in Latin, alternating with the schola. Our priest has made it clear that this is the way the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was intended to be offered.

To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.
[from SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM. SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON DECEMBER 4, 1963]

I now recite aloud Psalm 42, the Confiteor, the Nicene Creed and the Gloria as an introduction to my daily Rosary. All in Latin, naturally. Practice helps keep pronunciations sharp for the EF. Mumbled Latin is an abuse in itself.
.

 

[Timothysis]

You know, that’s not entirely fair. There are people out there who attend OF Masses regularly, but take an interest in the EF and other traditional Catholic spirituality. Those people can be hurt when the Mass that they attend on a regular basis is denigrated as untruly Catholic.

Thank you, sir; that has been my contention all along. Before I came here I only thought that there were people who were Catholics. There are at least a half dozen groups (for lack of a better term) that are defined as such (“traditionalist vs. novus ordo” for example) here and are often unfairly criticized for it.

The Church I go to was built in 1951 (I think), has a high altar, enough marble to build an emperors tomb, side chapels of the Sacred Heart and the Blessed Mother, with reverent, dedicated priests who say Mass with the utmost degree of respect and devotion, including the 9:30 Latin Mass that has been there since 1983. I have never heard of any of the EF vs. OF arguments until I came here.

It really does bother me that some have the mentality that if you attend the OF you are one of those Catholics, insinuating that you’re just a Catholic in name mostly, not a real Catholic. One week Monsignor wrote something in the bulletin that really made an impression on me and it was this; (I’m paraphrasing) "It doesn’t really matter if the liturgy is in English or Latin, or if the priest faces the people or the altar; what matters is that the priest intends to do what the Church intends him to do, and that is to consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ." While I prefer attending the OF, I have no problem at all with the EF and hope that it continues until the end of time, for it is one of the classic Traditions of the Church. If someone else prefers the EF, then that is fine with me; I don’t understand, though, why so many have the urge to declare that the EF is “superior” or “better” than the OF. A woman on here once wrote that "God prefers to be worshiped in the Latin Mass!" What can you say to someone like that?!?!?

 

[mick321]

Back at ya!

Our Lady of Sorrows Chapel
3475 N. Sherwood Forest Boulevard
Baton Rouge, LA

Feel free to drop in at any time.

I just made a cash donation in your name.

Back at you, Sport.

 

[Timothysis]

Our Lady of Sorrows Chapel
3475 N. Sherwood Forest Boulevard
Baton Rouge, LA

Feel free to drop in at any time.

I just made a cash donation in your name.

Back at you, Sport.

I sincerely hope that you are joking. Our Lady of Sorrows is an SSPX chapel. Pope Benedict himself has said twice in the past year that the SSPX do not have an active ministry in the Church. If you are honestly going to make a contribution in my name I would prefer that you make it to an organization that is in full communion with the Holy See.

St. Agnes Catholic Church here in Baton Rouge has had the Latin Mass since 1983 and could use any help you would care to give.

If you truly did such a thing I hope you reflect on it. It seems to me that such an act would be one of scandal.

 

[Melchior_1]

As a small town boy, I always found the phrase when you point your finger at someone, four point back at you" funny because if you flip people the bird instead, four are pointing down and one is pointing up.

Anyway, Tim’s on the money here (IMHO) on several respects. And Lujack summarized a point nicely as well.

And as a FYI; we should be allowed to post here in an articulate fashion when engaging in dialogue, since this is the area to do so. If people don’t agree, they are entitled to that,

 

[mick321]

I sincerely hope that you are joking. Our Lady of Sorrows is an SSPX chapel. Pope Benedict himself has said twice in the past year that the SSPX do not have an active ministry in the Church. If you are honestly going to make a contribution in my name I would prefer that you make it to an organization that is in full communion with the Holy See.

St. Agnes Catholic Church here in Baton Rouge has had the Latin Mass since 1983 and could use any help you would care to give.

If you truly did such a thing I hope you reflect on it. It seems to me that such an act would be one of scandal.

Relax Sport. I am joking this time. But someone else may not be. It’s always an option. Look at the bright side. You may find yourself in good company. A certain Archbishop out here is said to be one of the *largest *contributors to the Society, in a number of ways. There’s enough scandal to go around. Catholic charity goes in every direction. Reflect on that.

.

 

[Bbigam]

In our twice weekly Extraordinary Form Masses, the faithful are responsible for the same responses as the altar servers. In Sunday morning high Mass the responses are sung. In Tuesday evening low Mass, the responses are spoken. The faithful also chant the hymns in Latin, alternating with the schola. Our priest has made it clear that this is the way the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was intended to be offered.

To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.
[from SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM. SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON DECEMBER 4, 1963]

I now recite aloud Psalm 42, the Confiteor, the Nicene Creed and the Gloria as an introduction to my daily Rosary. All in Latin, naturally. Practice helps keep pronunciations sharp for the EF. Mumbled Latin is an abuse in itself.
.

Great! Sounds wonderful. The EF priest here is a very holy and reverent man, but he’s also quite elderly and often hard to hear and understand (even for the spoken/sung out loud parts of the Mass). This is the only EF I’ve been to.

In response to someone else: I’m also blessed to be at a parish (OF) where the Roman Canon is used quite frequently - pretty much every Choir Mass that we have for Sundays and some Holy Days.

 

[stuart12]

The Mass that I attend on a Sunday, is offered by a FSSP priest, who celebrates the Sacrifice in an almost trance-like state. I have never seen a priest so focused on what is happening. It increases my love for the liturgy and I am sure that it creates a deep impression on those who assist.

Another plus: he doesn’t mumble or murder the Latin.

 

[CradleCath]

mick321;6411084]In our twice weekly Extraordinary Form Masses, the faithful are responsible for the same responses as the altar servers. In Sunday morning high Mass the responses are sung. In Tuesday evening low Mass, the responses are spoken. The faithful also chant the hymns in Latin, alternating with the schola. Our priest has made it clear that this is the way the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was intended to be offered.

I believe you are speaking of what used to be called a dialog Mass. I loved it. It was used at the all girls Catholic high school I attended. There were a couple of reasons for it…#1. being that most of us took Latin & #2…There were no Altar boys available. We had a chapel within the school, so were privileged to have this Mass every day. It was also used, in this area, at some of our parishes for several years. I don’t blame your priest at all for his choice, I just didn’t know that it was allowed. I sure wouldn’t mind celebrating that again. Thanks for the info.

To promote active participation, the people should be encouraged to take part by means of acclamations, responses, psalmody, antiphons, and songs, as well as by actions, gestures, and bodily attitudes. And at the proper times all should observe a reverent silence.
[from SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM. SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON DECEMBER 4, 1963]

I now recite aloud Psalm 42, the Confiteor, the Nicene Creed and the Gloria as an introduction to my daily Rosary. All in Latin, naturally. Practice helps keep pronunciations sharp for the EF. Mumbled Latin is an abuse in itself.

I am impressed. I can still recite all of the Mass respsonses, the Hail Mary, Lord’s Prayer & Gloria in Latin, but I have not yet attempted the creed & the Confiteor. Looks like I’d better get to work on that
.

 

[CradleCath]

Great! Sounds wonderful. The EF priest here is a very holy and reverent man, but he’s also quite elderly and often hard to hear and understand (even for the spoken/sung out loud parts of the Mass). This is the only EF I’ve been to.

In response to someone else: I’m also blessed to be at a parish (OF) where the Roman Canon is used quite frequently - pretty much every Choir Mass that we have for Sundays and some Holy Days.

Oh yes you are blessed. The Roman Canon dates in essentials from before St. Gregory the Great, who died in 604, and who is credited with adding a phrase to it.It contains the main elements found in almost all rites. The word Canon derived from Latin, means according to rule. In the TLM. celebrated today, it begins before the Consecration & is & **always **was the heart of the Mass. What I have heard since 1969 is Eucharistic Prayer #2. (Of course, now, there is also #3, #4 & I believe 8 more. It lacks the spirituality & again the penitent tone of the Roman Canon.

 

[Monica37]

Just my 2 cents, but I think part of the problem for those who love the TLM is that it is not readily available. I still hear people saying that it is a 3 hour drive one way or a plane ride away. I go to an OF sometimes and find it very difficult to concentrate. I know that for those who choose that Mass, it is uplifting and meaningful. For me, I prefer the silences. I have to really focus on the fact that my interpretation is not the only one. I have been in places where the EF was not only not available, but openly greeted with animosity. I can understand the frustration on the part of those who are forced to attend where they don’t feel comfortable. I would ask understanding on the part of those who appreciate the OF to see the frustration on the part of the EF crowd. Likewise I would ask the EF crowd to remember that for many Catholics (particularly those who have only known the OF), this is as beautiful an experience for them just as the EF is for us (although I am really in the 40 and under crowd myself). The fundamental problem is that there is fear and distrust on both sides. The EF crowd was disappointed that there was not a greater availability of the EF or that is was grudgingly accepted by certain diocese. It doesn’t matter how small the crowd that attends, it needs to be available at decent times and readily accessible places. A little compromise could go a long way in allying a lot of resentments. All parishes need to have both forms available, they need to participate together in church activities and functions, i.e. Knights of Columbus, CCD, retreats, etc. Please, make room for each other and be open to sharing ideas. The best way to understand someone is to share a common goal. Make strengthing your parish your goal and that would mean including all Catholics. I love the TLM and would attend that exclusively if possible, but I also want to be included in other aspects of the parish. I see the EF crowds sometimes shy away from participating with the OF crowd when we do share a parish, and likewise I see the OF crowd schedule events during the EF Mass which makes it impossible for them to attend. Maybe all that is needed is a little more attention to details.
We will probably always disagree with which Mass form we prefer, but ultimately we are all Catholics and that should take precedence.
Sorry for the rant, I just hate arguements. I responded to this thread about what I love about the TLM, it doesn’t mean that what others love about the OF is of less importance.

 

[CradleCath]

Just my 2 cents, but I think part of the problem for those who love the TLM is that it is not readily available. I still hear people saying that it is a 3 hour drive one way or a plane ride away. I go to an OF sometimes and find it very difficult to concentrate. I know that for those who choose that Mass, it is uplifting and meaningful. For me, I prefer the silences. I have to really focus on the fact that my interpretation is not the only one. I have been in places where the EF was not only not available, but openly greeted with animosity. I can understand the frustration on the part of those who are forced to attend where they don’t feel comfortable. I would ask understanding on the part of those who appreciate the OF to see the frustration on the part of the EF crowd. Likewise I would ask the EF crowd to remember that for many Catholics (particularly those who have only known the OF), this is as beautiful an experience for them just as the EF is for us (although I am really in the 40 and under crowd myself). The fundamental problem is that there is fear and distrust on both sides. The EF crowd was disappointed that there was not a greater availability of the EF or that is was grudgingly accepted by certain diocese. It doesn’t matter how small the crowd that attends, it needs to be available at decent times and readily accessible places. A little compromise could go a long way in allying a lot of resentments. All parishes need to have both forms available, they need to participate together in church activities and functions, i.e. Knights of Columbus, CCD, retreats, etc. Please, make room for each other and be open to sharing ideas. The best way to understand someone is to share a common goal. Make strengthing your parish your goal and that would mean including all Catholics. I love the TLM and would attend that exclusively if possible, but I also want to be included in other aspects of the parish. I see the EF crowds sometimes shy away from participating with the OF crowd when we do share a parish, and likewise I see the OF crowd schedule events during the EF Mass which makes it impossible for them to attend. Maybe all that is needed is a little more attention to details.
We will probably always disagree with which Mass form we prefer, but ultimately we are all Catholics and that should take precedence.
Sorry for the rant, I just hate arguements. I responded to this thread about what I love about the TLM, it doesn’t mean that what others love about the OF is of less importance.

What a lovely post, Monica, & I don’t like arguments either. However, when Catholics who favor the Latin Mass cannot even have a place to delve into the reasons with other Catholics of like mind, something is very wrong.

I was in my mid twenties when the Novus Ordo was imposed on us. I tried for 40+ years to love it as I love the TLM. I saw the abuses, the Liturgical dancers, the EM’s & Lectors & readers all over the place,
and still I went to Mass on Sunday’s & Holy Days. So many Catholics just left. Oh, how much easier my Spiritual life would have been if I could have found God’s great Mercy & Love in the Novus Ordo. I didn’t. That’s just a truth I can’t change & I can no longer lie about.

I am not a nostalgic old woman “pining for yesterday”, I’m not in love with the “smells & bells”…I believe with all of my hearts that I’m drawn to the Latin Mass (& always will be) because it exults God & His Majesty & shows the reality that is us…we are sinners. The ONLY reason that we can even be there, is that Christ died on the cross for us & the prayers show that.

I pretty much agree with Onegin’s earlier post. I hope he doesn’t mind if I quote him:

“I can’t be intellectually honest with you all and say that I love the TLM and the OF equally and that there is absolutely no difference for me in either one, and the only reason I attend the TLM is that it is more aesthetically pleasing. This would be a lie. **There are substantive differences between the two that have made me choose one form and, because of this, i think it is legitimate to highlight these differences in a respectful way.” **

 

[PA650]

What a lovely post, Monica, & I don’t like arguments either. However, when Catholics who favor the Latin Mass cannot even have a place to delve into the reasons with other Catholics of like mind, something is very wrong.

I was in my mid twenties when the Novus Ordo was imposed on us. I tried for 40+ years to love it as I love the TLM. I saw the abuses, the Liturgical dancers, the EM’s & Lectors & readers all over the place,
and still I went to Mass on Sunday’s & Holy Days. So many Catholics just left. Oh, how much easier my Spiritual life would have been if I could have found God’s great Mercy & Love in the Novus Ordo. I didn’t. That’s just a truth I can’t change & I can no longer lie about.

I am not a nostalgic old woman “pining for yesterday”, I’m not in love with the “smells & bells”…I believe with all of my hearts that I’m drawn to the Latin Mass (& always will be) because it exults God & His Majesty & shows the reality that is us…we are sinners. The ONLY reason that we can even be there, is that Christ died on the cross for us & the prayers show that.

I pretty much agree with Onegin’s earlier post. I hope he doesn’t mind if I quote him:

“I can’t be intellectually honest with you all and say that I love the TLM and the OF equally and that there is absolutely no difference for me in either one, and the only reason I attend the TLM is that it is more aesthetically pleasing. This would be a lie. **There are substantive differences between the two that have made me choose one form and, because of this, i think it is legitimate to highlight these differences in a respectful way.” **

Thank you for your wonderful post, CadleCath. I attend an orthodox OF parish and I of course on occasion have heard the statement, “smells and bells” with regard to TLM. Thus, putting forth such an idea that those who may desire TLM is purely based on aesthetics. Moreover, the Second Vatican Council did not create a new Church, but it seems older members of my parish believe it did. In addition, I am wholeheartedly in support of the “reform of the reform” since Pope Benedict XVI is quite aware of certain deficiencies of the Ordinary Form:

“What happened after the council was something else entirely: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy. We abandoned the organic, living process of growth and development over the centuries, and replaced it—as in a manufacturing process—with a ‘fabrication, a banal on-the-spot product. (Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger)