A Modest Proposal

[Don_Schneider]

Many have decried the Church’s seeming unwillingness to enforce Church discipline, even in egregious cases. If, for example, the Church teaches that abortion is tantamount to murder, then why is any Catholic permitted to remain in the faith if he or she favors legalized abortion?

In one analyzes matters (my forte!), can any Catholic politician, for example, really say:

“Well, of course I believe that the fetus is a human being in the fullest sense of the word and that abortion is murder. However, I favor legalized abortion anyway.”?

Of course, not. Who would ever admit such a thing? Therefore, the only alternative comes down to:

“I disagree with the Church’s teaching.”

Why then is such a person not excommunicated for not recognizing the teaching authority of the Church?

Now, as a way to help restore Church discipline, here is my proposal. Let’s reinstate good old, medieval excommunication services! That is where the priest chants and a choir repeats as a refrain something along the lines of:

**"And the worms will consume his flesh. His soul will be consigned to the fires of Hell; **and **he will be damned for all time”…**and “May he have a really lousy weekend!”… or however it goes.

We could single out particularly prominent “pro-choice” Catholics for such celebrity treatment and televise the event. Let’s bring back that old time religion!

 

[davidv]

How do think this will bring people back to the Church?

Excommunication is intended to be the last ditch effort to get those in error to mend their ways and return to the Church.

It seems to me this type of public display would drive more away than it would bring back.

 

[JRKH]

Don.
While I understand your frustration I have to agree with David on this one. A large and very public spectical would probably do more harm than good to the cause.

On the other hand I do agree that these persons need to be singled out and made to get off the fence. Either they Love God above all else, or they Love their Jobs above God.

Perhaps a very clear and concise letter to the offenders with a deadline for compliance would be a very good idea. Then - If they refuse to repent, the Church at large (publically) is told that this person is excommunicated and is seperated from the sacramants and from the body of Christ.

The upshot might be a smaller church in America, but it would also be a Church of True believers.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

As another thought on this, it is too bad that some people believe that they can or should hold seperate views in the Voting Booth and the Pew.

Public officials who claim that they need to support abortion because they represent ALL of the people are just deluding themselves. Our representatives are supposed to use their best judgements in matters. That is what they are there for. Their judgement should reflect their spiritual life and convictions. If it does not, then they failing to serve adequately and cannot serve effectively.

Peace
James

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear David,

I’m afraid you missed the point completely. The idea is not to get people back to the Church, but rather to get them out of Her!

Do you really want to be in communion with people who advocate legalized murder? Or don’t you really believe your Church’s teaching on the subject?

 

[falcogreg]

What I don’t understand is why the priests continue to serve them Communion knowing they are in a state of mortal sin. I remember reading recently that Sebelius’ (sp?) local Bishop had admonished her and not allowed her to receive it. However, it mentions in the article that since she is in DC and the bishop allows it, she can continue to do so. Since then, I read that the Bishop in DC refuses to hold back Communion even though he was instructed to by Rome (I believe it was Burke?). How can this bishop not follow instructions given to him by his superiors? And, once again, how can he allow them to receive in a state of mortal sin. Some things I don’t get.

Greg

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Many have decried the Church’s seeming unwillingness to enforce Church discipline, even in egregious cases. If, for example, the Church teaches that abortion is tantamount to murder, then why is any Catholic permitted to remain in the faith if he or she favors legalized abortion?..

The church does not excommunicate murders

In one analyzes matters (my forte!), can any Catholic politician, for example, really say:

“Well, of course I believe that the fetus is a human being in the fullest sense of the word and that abortion is murder. However, I favor legalized abortion anyway.”? …

One cannot “legalize” one can only crimalize

Of course, not. Who would ever admit such a thing? Therefore, the only alternative comes down to:

“I disagree with the Church’s teaching.”…

Do Christ impose his will on the Romans?

Why then is such a person not excommunicated for not recognizing the teaching authority of the Church??..

Maybe the Church teaching does not require the crminalization of abortion?

Now, as a way to help restore Church discipline, here is my proposal. Let’s reinstate good old, medieval excommunication services! That is where the priest chants and a choir repeats as a refrain something along the lines of:

**"And the worms will consume his flesh. His soul will be consigned to the fires of Hell; **and ****he will be damned for all time”…and “May he have a really lousy weekend!”… or however it goes.

We could single out particularly prominent “pro-choice” Catholics for such celebrity treatment and televise the event. Let’s bring back that old time religion!

I think the Church is ordained to teach and lead not to condemn?

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Texas:

I am not suggesting that the Church excommunicate anyone for murder. I am suggesting She excommunicates purported members who proclaim that Her teachings are wrong.

I am not suggesting that the Church impose her will on “Romans” (outsiders). I am suggesting She impose Her will on Roman Catholics (insiders).

And yes indeed the Church condemns. She declares heretics as such and occasionally even excommunicates abortion workers. (Though curiously it seems easier to get banned from CA than it is to be excommunicated from the Church. Perhaps Mr. Keating should be our next pope!)

 

[cephas161619]

I think the Church is ordained to teach and lead not to condemn?

The Church is to lead persons to Christ and bring Christ to people. If the Church declared that certain persons were condemned, it was only as a result of their obstinate refusal to repent. It becomes a pastoral issue when the question is ‘what is the best way to lead this person back to Christ?’ which is the primary purpose of the Church. People still excommunicate themselves by law with no further action of the Church, but for the Church to declare this truth as a condemnation is a way of pushing them away, instead of inviting them to repentance. Even Christ did not come to condemn the world but so the world might have life through him. We condemn ourselves by our actions.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Dear Texas:

I am not suggesting that the Church excommunicate anyone for murder. I am suggesting She excommunicates purported members who proclaim that Her teachings are wrong.

They did not declare church teachings wrong.

I am not suggesting that the Church impose her will on “Romans” (outsiders). I am suggesting She impose Her will on Roman Catholics (insiders).

The catholics and outsiders can lose their soul, the church is to save the souls not to be a government

And yes indeed the Church condemns. She declares heretics as such and occasionally even excommunicates abortion workers. (Though curiously it seems easier to get banned from CA than it is to be excommunicated from the Church. Perhaps Mr. Keating should be our next pope!)

Heretics teach against the church, while your example does not show a teaching against the church.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Texas:

You wrote:

“Heretics teach against the church, while your example does not show a teaching against the church.”

Why do you ignore my analysis in my OP?

Either they do believe that abortion is murder or they don’t. In the latter case, they are denying the teaching of the Church on the matter. In regard to the former case, as I said, I doubt anyone would admit to supporting the legalization of murder. But if someone did, then I submit to you that he or she would be a monstrous.

 

[praise_Jesus_1]

My suggestion would be for all Priests, and Bishops to start preaching about the evils of abortion during their homilies. I would wish they would all preach the truth with courage and deal with the big controversial issues.

Then those who support this immorality will have to choose whether or not they want to stay in the church of leave it.

I agree with the original poster’s sentiment that we want a church with a few strong faithful versus one with many lukewarm people. But I don’t know if a mass culling of these lukewarm would be the most appropriate response.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Personally I am in favor of “cleaning house” - starting with very public Catholics who are living iand acting in direct contradiction to their attested to faith.

The Church would not for a moment let stand a notorious non-Catholic mass murderer to go onto national TV and make a statement calling himself Catholic and having the right to kill anyone he wants. The Church would IMMEDIATELY issue a press release disavowing the man.

So how can The Church permit the charade of pseudo-Catholic politicians vicariously aiding and abetting wholesale mass murder viz abortion without making AT LEAST a public comment that the politician is “out to lunch” and not a practising Catholic when its obvious they are not? Some of these politicians calling themselves Catholic are only in the position they are BECAUSE they are Catholic and their parties know they can gain the Catholic vote and BECAUSE they are CHOSEN deliberately to MARGINALIZE The Catholic Church by dividing it against itself politically. It’s really a brilliant Machiavellian plan - the pseudo-Catholic has been enticed to sell his soul to the devil for personal gain under a veneer of “duty to country before personal morality” (like the Nazi Jewish persecutors did) while the political apparatchiks publicly mock the Catholic Church about its doctrines and split it internally so they get a steady base of voters.

I say its high time to say “to hell” with keeping the pews full and the collection coffers filled and “just say no”. Let’s excommunicate all public figure Catholics who go blatantly contrary to Church teachings - including priests and bishops and those teaching in “Catholic Universities”. It’s high time to take back the American Catholic Church from the heretics, the moral cowards and the false teachers.

If government threatens to cancel our tax-free status then by God let them have their blood money and lets cut off ALL tax breaks for all denominations. Otherwise that tax free status just forces us all to pander and support these morally corrupt leaders.

God wants quality of worship - not quantity with a medicore and watered down corpus of believers.

James

 

[graceandglory]

Many have decried the Church’s seeming unwillingness to enforce Church discipline, even in egregious cases.!

And sadly it keeps many Christians who love the Trinity from recognizing the Catholic Church as the True Church of Christ.

 

[graceandglory]

My suggestion would be for all Priests, and Bishops to start preaching about the evils of abortion during their homilies. I would wish they would all preach the truth with courage and deal with the big controversial issues.
.

I think there are other sins in the congregation that need to be addressed equally or more than abortion. Love on another and stop your gossiping and backbiting, for example.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear Praise Jesus:

Ah, praise Jesus indeed! At last, someone who actually understands the post.

By my post’s very title, anyone who is familiar with Jonathan Swift should recognize it as being satirical. As with all satire, it carries an underlying serious message cloaked in a comic veneer. The serious message is that as long as the leaders of our Church refuse to act like they *actually believe *their own rhetoric, the more the Church will be left with strictly nominal adherents who remain for cultural reasons and reasons of convenience; while true believers, those who have the audacity to actually want to take their religion seriously, will continue to flee by the millions in favor of Protestant Fundamentalist and Pentecostal religions, and sects such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormons.

You hit the nail on the head, Praise! This was Lenin’s (devil that he was, he *understood *power politics and human nature) dictum. That is, it is better to have a handful of followers one can depend upon absolutely than it is to have a multitude of lukewarm adherents.

Perhaps it is time for the Church to seriously consider downsizing so She may begin to bloom again from the faithful remnant. If the Church would have acted decisively forty years ago when the decay had been incipient, then the resulting loss would have been far less. However, it is never too late to do the right thing.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear James:

I was remiss in not including you along with Praise Jesus in my last remarks. Please accept my apologies for the omission. Obviously you too understood the message, and I appreciate it.

Don

 

[davidv]

Dear David,

I’m afraid you missed the point completely.

I did not miss your point. I disagree with you point.

The idea is not to get people back to the Church, but rather to get them out of Her!

Really? I though the Church’s duty, expressly commanded by Jesus was to spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth and lead all to heaven. How can she do this by kicking them out?

Do you really want to be in communion with people who advocate legalized murder?

Do I have any choice? Where is there a church community that is completely free of sin?

Or don’t you really believe your Church’s teaching on the subject?

Yes I believe all she teaches, including her teaching that all (including abortion supporters) are called to repent and believe in the Gospel.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I did not miss your point. I disagree with you point.

ditto

…Where is there a church community that is completely free of sin?..

And there you go … since there are none you have to substitute your standards for god’s standards.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Dear David and Texas:

I can see I have been laboring under a false assumption. I would have assumed that since you view abortion as murder, and there have been around 80 million such murders in the U. S. since Roe and such continues, that you would be *absolutely horrified *at this occurrence: A Holocaust that drawfs the most famous one of that name. You refer to this as mere “sin?” You equate those who *advocate *such mass murder with tax cheats, for example? You can’t find another religion that at least won’t tolerate that? Did not St. Paul admonish us: “Shun the evil man?”

Once again I am forced to ask you both: Do you *really believe *the Church’s teaching on this issue? For that matter, do you really believe those in charge of the Church really believe it themselves?

And, David, didn’t the Lord admonish his apostles and disciples to wipe even the very dirt off their sandals from anyplace that wouldn’t receive their message of Him? Do you recall what he indicated such a place’s fate would be on Judgment Day? Are you trying to out-Jesus Jesus? You are more tolerant than God incarnate Himself? Indeed.