T
Texas_Roofer
Guest
that is a lot of youing and why?The church does not tell us to follow your interpretations nor to have the Magisterium’s teachings reinterpreted. So it would seem this lecture comes from where?
- Status
that is a lot of youing and why?The church does not tell us to follow your interpretations nor to have the Magisterium’s teachings reinterpreted. So it would seem this lecture comes from where?
D
Don_Schneider
Guest
Dear Texas:
“The church does not tell us to follow your interpretations nor to have the Magisterium’s teachings reinterpreted.”
–I am most decidedly not reinterpreting the Magisterium’s teachings. On the contrary, I merely insist they act in accordance with them. Presumptuous of me, isn’t it?
“So it would seem this lecture comes from where?”
–Logic.
“The church does not tell us to follow your interpretations nor to have the Magisterium’s teachings reinterpreted.”
–I am most decidedly not reinterpreting the Magisterium’s teachings. On the contrary, I merely insist they act in accordance with them. Presumptuous of me, isn’t it?
“So it would seem this lecture comes from where?”
–Logic.
C
chain
Guest
The problem is if you excommunicated Catholics for disagreeing with church teaching - most of the Catholic churches in America would be empty - let’s see no abortion, contraception, premarital sex…
D
Don_Schneider
Guest
Dear Chain:
You wrote:
"The problem is if you excommunicated Catholics for disagreeing with church teaching - most of the Catholic churches in America would be empty - let’s see no abortion, contraception, premarital sex… "
Ah, at last a man after my own heart! You’re analytical as well. This is exactly what the Church leaders fear and by their paralysis they are merely pushing back the day of reckoning. This is like the smoker with a chronic cough who so fears going to the doctor for a verdict that he waits until there is no chance at all…
Do you remember what Charlton Heston says (as Moses) in *The Ten Commandments *after he returns from Mt. Sinai and finds some of the Jewish people worshipping a golden calf and Moses then brings down the wrath of God upon them?
He says:
“We must begin again.”
The Protestant churches in Northern Europe are virtually dead; so much so that commentators have begun to refer to it as “Post-Christian Europe.” The Catholic Church in Ireland and Southern Europe (in its mad rush to ape Protestantism since Vat II) is only a few years behind in the process. What is there to lose anymore?
Is it not time to seriously consider “Moses’s” words?
You wrote:
"The problem is if you excommunicated Catholics for disagreeing with church teaching - most of the Catholic churches in America would be empty - let’s see no abortion, contraception, premarital sex… "
Ah, at last a man after my own heart! You’re analytical as well. This is exactly what the Church leaders fear and by their paralysis they are merely pushing back the day of reckoning. This is like the smoker with a chronic cough who so fears going to the doctor for a verdict that he waits until there is no chance at all…
Do you remember what Charlton Heston says (as Moses) in *The Ten Commandments *after he returns from Mt. Sinai and finds some of the Jewish people worshipping a golden calf and Moses then brings down the wrath of God upon them?
He says:
“We must begin again.”
The Protestant churches in Northern Europe are virtually dead; so much so that commentators have begun to refer to it as “Post-Christian Europe.” The Catholic Church in Ireland and Southern Europe (in its mad rush to ape Protestantism since Vat II) is only a few years behind in the process. What is there to lose anymore?
Is it not time to seriously consider “Moses’s” words?
J
JRKH
Guest
If what you say is true and nearly all of the catholcis are “cafeteria” catholics then the churches are already empty. Nothing but whitewashed Sepulchers.
The Churches teaching are to be accepted by the faithful.
If the teachings are accepted but we fail to live up to themm THEN we are merely sinful
If we reject the teachings and declare them wrong, we cut ourselves off from the Body of the Christ.
The biggest point in all of this, in my opinion, is that we have high profile Catholics who are flaunting Church teachings with seeming impunity. This leads to a poor example for the rest of the faithful. If the Church took a harder stance with these people at least the message would be consistant.
Peace
James
D
Don_Schneider
Guest
Dear JRKH:
Regarding your last post to Chain, exactly right.
Hear! Hear!
Don
Regarding your last post to Chain, exactly right.
Hear! Hear!
Don
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
This is the sad truth. Some of the religious orders will no longer send new seminarian priests to the USA because they see the USA Church as a different denomination - a Protestant-Catholic Church. They would rather send them to Africa and places where there is more zeal for the Catholic Church.
The only way for a lay Catholic to survive anymore as an orthodox Catholic is to join a 3rd order religious community as a lay member. We need a serious house cleaning in the USA and some USA bishops to be defrocked and censured. I get the distinct impression that USCCB is bucking Rome and is trying to become a de facto American-Catholic denomination in schism with Rome. It is very hard to get a priest anymore who is willing to teach Catholicism from the pulpit and if one presses them they will want YOU to coordinate with the bishop to get permissions and do everything in their power to stone wall you in the the hopes one will lose interest and go away.
James
C
cephas161619
Guest
A return to the zeal of the faith is a very good proposal.
To think you can excommunicate the sinners is not.
Have you not read the parable of the wheat and the chaff? They aren’t winnowed yet.
To think you can excommunicate the sinners is not.
Have you not read the parable of the wheat and the chaff? They aren’t winnowed yet.
J
JRKH
Guest
You may have something of a point, but I want you to considers something else.
I few years back, and stretching back over decades, the Church was trying to quietly deal with priests who were acting inappropriately toward children who were in their charge. I believe that those in charge thought that they were acting appropriately and being charitable to the “sinners” by getting them help before reassigning them.
It did not work, and the Church was exposed to even more damage than if the sick and sinful priests had been dealt with more forcefully in the beginning.
I know that I am oversimplifying in the above, but the same principle is at work here. These public officials who claim to be catholic are well aware of what the official teaching of the Church is on abortion. They have also taken a very public stand in opposition to this teaching. This matter has been discussed with them and if they are not willing to repent their heretical postiion then some sanction must be taken for the good of the flock.
You ask us to read about the wheat and chaff,
I ask you to read Mt 15:15-18 - "If they will not listen even to the Church, treat them as a “tax collector”.
Peace
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Does this principal apply to “the world” or to the Church or both? I think it applies predominantly to “the world” since The Church automatically excommunicates from herself any who violate grave dogmatic teachings such as abortion (not capital murder though ironically). God of course immediately vacates anyone who sins gravely. Would the church dare let any of these “Catholic” in name only people be extraordinary lay Eucharistic ministers? I think and pray not. It’s time to remove the “title” Catholic from these disgraces. With liberal Catholics and secularists leading the country can anyone doubt why the country is all going to hell in a hand-basket so quickly? Can anyone doubt why 54% of Catholics voted pro-death candidates? We have a MAJOR schism in the USA Catholic Church and its time to clean house.
http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn...gingred.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/biden.jpg http://tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn...islam/english/jewishp/usa/giuliani-finger.jpg http://tbn2.google.com/images?q=tbn...008/05/21/tedkennedy_narrowweb__300x360,0.jpg http://tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn...et/images/stories/looks-a-like/john-kerry.jpg
Pelosi, Biden, Giuliani, Kennedy, Keery - The Catholic Church’s elite Crème de la Crème Big Government, Small-Church, pro-Abortionists.
Has anyone else noticed that there is not one single orthodox Catholic in a single predominant national leadership position in America? I have and its extremely clear that the American Politicheck is cherry picking ONLY the most ultra-liberal pseudo-Catholics it can find as “representative” of the Catholic Church from the inter-denominational Liberal-Protestant-Catholic Church to mock the true Catholic Church. Clearly it seeks to use these disgraces as a means to marginalize us and to reprogram us into good secular tax-payers who will roll over and play dead to anything the state wants to do under a ruse of charity and social programs. How long CAN The Church suffer this shame?
A Catholic national level politician is in some ways by intention or not in many ways of reckoning seen to be trying to leading other Catholics as well as setting the example for non-Catholics. A rouge Catholic in this capacity is doubly bad since it inspires those within the church to bad example and furthers the error to the entire assembly and also creates an instance of scandal to those outside the church who subscribe to partial-truths and see the Catholic “leaders” actions as reprehensible – creating an impediment to their conversion to the full truth of Catholicism. This is not unlike Korah who tried to compete with the authority of Moses:
*
Numbers 16: 21-24; 31-32
Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that I may consume them instantly.” 22 But they fell on their faces and said, “O God, God of the spirits of all flesh, when one man sins, will You be angry with the entire congregation?”
23 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 24 “Speak to the congregation, saying, ‘Get back from around the dwellings of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.’”
…
32 As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them split open; 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions
*
The example here has God dispatching the false leaders and their troupe to hell – but I think the lesson here is that we should not tolerate false teachers who are not of the ordained order within “the assembly” of The Church.
As well something similar seen in:
*2 Cor 6:14-16
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? 15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God…"
1 Cor 5: 2; 5
2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
…
5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Cor 5:13
But those who are outside, God judges. **REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES. ***
Not only Excommunicate them, publicly spit these out of our mouths as worse than luke-warm - they are poison and noxious.
James
C
chain
Guest
I recognize that the priesthood has difficult decisions to make while following the principal of loving the sinner, but hating the sin. I have been active (and not so active) members of various church communities over the last couple of decades-and have generally tried to understand the reasoning of the pastor.
I suspect many pastors understand that they are in reality missionaries. Their congregation are simply a bunch of pagans - and their hope is to expose them (as many as possible) to the truth they will listen to in the hopes that a few might peruse the fullness of the faith and actually become Catholic. That said, there is a difference in focusing on your community and what is most likely to lead them to Christ - and teaching heresies (such as women will be priest in a pope or 2, confession is not really necessary, or downplaying mortal sins to acceptable behavior because your congregation likes sinning-and the “church” teaching is outdated).
I suspect many pastors understand that they are in reality missionaries. Their congregation are simply a bunch of pagans - and their hope is to expose them (as many as possible) to the truth they will listen to in the hopes that a few might peruse the fullness of the faith and actually become Catholic. That said, there is a difference in focusing on your community and what is most likely to lead them to Christ - and teaching heresies (such as women will be priest in a pope or 2, confession is not really necessary, or downplaying mortal sins to acceptable behavior because your congregation likes sinning-and the “church” teaching is outdated).
D
Don_Schneider
Guest
Dear James,
Although your views are strident, I believe they reflect the frustration of many of us. Seldom has the world witnessed such monumental, blatant and unapologetic hypocrisy as the Church has exhibited in regard to abortion. “How dare you take us seriously!” might be Her operatives pitiful refrain.
If the Church had acted decisively after Roe, then I am firmly convinced that this Holocaust of latter day holy innocents would never have unfolded to the extent it has. No religion will be taken seriously that doesn’t act so itself. So, except for myriad strictly nominal adherents, we wane while Fundamentalist sects and others of a similar stripe wax.
Thanks for posting.
Although your views are strident, I believe they reflect the frustration of many of us. Seldom has the world witnessed such monumental, blatant and unapologetic hypocrisy as the Church has exhibited in regard to abortion. “How dare you take us seriously!” might be Her operatives pitiful refrain.
If the Church had acted decisively after Roe, then I am firmly convinced that this Holocaust of latter day holy innocents would never have unfolded to the extent it has. No religion will be taken seriously that doesn’t act so itself. So, except for myriad strictly nominal adherents, we wane while Fundamentalist sects and others of a similar stripe wax.
Thanks for posting.
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
This discussion reminds me of an incident I went through a few years ago.
A certain priest had told me such and such an action wasn’t a sin. You know, it just didn’t sound right to me, so I decided I would ask my parish priest for clarification.
The next opportunity I had to speak to him happened to be in the confessional. Well, you would not believe how uncomfortable he got. He hemmed and hawed for a while, then finally said, “Because you are asking me this in the confessional, I am obligated to tell you the truth.” He then went on to explain that such and such really was a sin.
I have to tell you I was shocked–not so much because he contradicted the other priest, but because he said, “Because you are asking me this in the confessional, I am obligated to tell you the truth.” What? Excuse me? Wasn’t he obligated to tell me the truth everywhere?
Slowly it dawned on me that this priest thought I was considering acting upon this particular sin, and he was afraid I would leave the Church on account of it. (I had, on other occasions, seen him bend over backwards to keep those butts in the pews.)
Now, I honestly don’t think that priest cared more about having my butt in the pew than my soul in heaven. But I do think he feared I had less chance of my soul being in heaven if my butt wasn’t in the pew.
This incident made me realize bishops and priests have something of a dilemma. I think it’s possible they’re afraid that if they excommunicate someone, that person will never come back to the Church, thereby putting his soul in even more danger than if he stayed. I think they believe that if he stays, he might be more readily moved to repentance. In other words, they think the chance of repentance will be higher if he stays than if he leaves. Even worse, I think they’re afraid that if a high-profile person leaves, he will take a lot of other people with him.
If this is their strategy, it should be obvious it doesn’t work. Jesus told us the truth would set us free. He didn’t say “watered down” truth would set us free. Christ Himself told us very clearly in Matthew 18 what to do when we see a brother sinning.
Personally, I would like to see strong bishops who stand up for Church teaching. I would like to see bishops who actually follow what Jesus said in Matthew 18. After all, how can we go wrong following the words of Christ?
A certain priest had told me such and such an action wasn’t a sin. You know, it just didn’t sound right to me, so I decided I would ask my parish priest for clarification.
The next opportunity I had to speak to him happened to be in the confessional. Well, you would not believe how uncomfortable he got. He hemmed and hawed for a while, then finally said, “Because you are asking me this in the confessional, I am obligated to tell you the truth.” He then went on to explain that such and such really was a sin.
I have to tell you I was shocked–not so much because he contradicted the other priest, but because he said, “Because you are asking me this in the confessional, I am obligated to tell you the truth.” What? Excuse me? Wasn’t he obligated to tell me the truth everywhere?
Slowly it dawned on me that this priest thought I was considering acting upon this particular sin, and he was afraid I would leave the Church on account of it. (I had, on other occasions, seen him bend over backwards to keep those butts in the pews.)
Now, I honestly don’t think that priest cared more about having my butt in the pew than my soul in heaven. But I do think he feared I had less chance of my soul being in heaven if my butt wasn’t in the pew.
This incident made me realize bishops and priests have something of a dilemma. I think it’s possible they’re afraid that if they excommunicate someone, that person will never come back to the Church, thereby putting his soul in even more danger than if he stayed. I think they believe that if he stays, he might be more readily moved to repentance. In other words, they think the chance of repentance will be higher if he stays than if he leaves. Even worse, I think they’re afraid that if a high-profile person leaves, he will take a lot of other people with him.
If this is their strategy, it should be obvious it doesn’t work. Jesus told us the truth would set us free. He didn’t say “watered down” truth would set us free. Christ Himself told us very clearly in Matthew 18 what to do when we see a brother sinning.
Personally, I would like to see strong bishops who stand up for Church teaching. I would like to see bishops who actually follow what Jesus said in Matthew 18. After all, how can we go wrong following the words of Christ?
M
mkingdomlvr
Guest
It’s easy for the Church to go after public figures, but what method are they going to use with private citizens?
Will there be some kind of loyalty oath that includes the social teachings that are not contained in the Creed?
If the policy cannot be enforced uniformly, perhaps that has something to do with the hesitation. If you can excommunicate Nancy Pelosi for disagreeing with Church teaching, but you can’t excommunicate Nancy Jones for holding the same opinion and sharing it with those around her-it would seem inconsistent.
Will there be some kind of loyalty oath that includes the social teachings that are not contained in the Creed?
If the policy cannot be enforced uniformly, perhaps that has something to do with the hesitation. If you can excommunicate Nancy Pelosi for disagreeing with Church teaching, but you can’t excommunicate Nancy Jones for holding the same opinion and sharing it with those around her-it would seem inconsistent.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
I agree - we can’t pander to people just to keep the pews full or we lose ourselves and become nothing but an “ecclesial club” like all the other non-Catholic ecclesial communities. The sense of piety, sanctity & holiness in the physical church is almost all gone now in many parishes in the country.
Try to tell ANYONE in the church to please stop talking at full normal voice levels in church with their friends in the surrounding pews before the mass starts and one can end up in real confrontation. I tried it one time in the choir area when they were all turned around laughing and cutting up like it was a social hall and one aggressive man I asked to please respect those who want to pray so close to the tabernacle before mass by holding down the chatter. He got belligerent and started getting angry and mad and I had to call him outside to prevent a fisticuffs in public since he “lost it” (outside I had to tolerate his thumping his finger in my chest and screaming and insulting me while families with young kids walked in with disturbed looks just to prevent an esculation and resist the urge to cold-cock the old buzzard to silence him). It’s bad - REAL bad. I complained to the priest that he needs to say something before mass about not talking in church so we can pray and he told me “this is a family and families like to socialize before the party starts”!! I told him “the Lord’s house is a house of prayer and he needs to at least make an effort to remind people to respect the presence of the eucharist” . He got impatient and told me he can’t even keep these people from walking out in full stride after communion after being reminded and became annoyed and told me to go to the chapel if I couldn’t deal with it and pray there. I wanted to puke. Then I go to a “young adults mass” on Sunday afternoon since I had a schedule conflict and they were having a pre-mass rock-and-roll jam session with blaring speakers at full amp power - the whole place was rumbling and my ears hurt so badly that I could literally not even say the rosary and hear my own thoughts. What a ruined mass experience.
It’s time to take back out church and our country.
Here is a mini-portrait of just how obscene it has all become - there is no sense of moral balance or reason anymore. This news article has PETA getting outraged for Obama smacking and killing a fly on national TV! But we do NOT get so much as A PEEP of media coverage at the national level by anyone when Catholics complain about the 60 million babies this “land of the free” has aborted/murdered since the government and our morally heartless “supreme court” conjured up a new God given right for women to kill their children at anytime - right up to the head coming out to catch its first breath of air!
PETA miffed at President Obama’s fly “execution”
Obama Video:“Got the sucka” (wait for commercial to play)
The world has gone absolutely MAD with a warped sense of morality. It is drunk on the wine of perdition and the blood of the innocent. For the sake of humanity The Catholic Church needs to purify itself THEN rescue the rest of the planet from itself before God puts us all out of our misery in His wrath.
At some point the damned souls from Sodom and Gomorrah or going to demand to be released from hell for having committed much less grave and numbers of sins than this “modern civilized” world has committed and legalized.
James
N
Newbie2
Guest
I guess that begs the question if an orthodox Catholic can get elected to a prominant leadership position in America. Personally, I think not. To get elected to a federal level governing position means making compromises; there’s not one single squeaky-clean legislator in the whole of federal government, methinks.
That doesn’t mean, however, that we shouldn’t try to find and elect them.
The point is well taken in this thread that “Pro-Choice, Catholic” pols are damaging to the faith and the faithful. We have our own Governor “I personally oppose but publically support abortion since it is the law” Jenny Granholm here in Michigan. Thankfully, she’ll be term-limited out of office at the end of her current term.
It burns my rear end that she pandered to the Catholic vote by using her “sunday-go-to-mass-ness”…but bugs me even more that many Catholics bought into it hook, line and sinker.
K
Kay_Cee
Guest
Well, the world went absolutely MAD after that incident in the Garden of Eden. Whether things are worse now than in the past would make an interesting discussion, although it deserves its own thread.
I agree that we, as the Church Militant, are soldiers in a full-blown culture war. I also agree with Peter Kreeft that the only weapon that will win this war is saints (for those unfamiliar with Kreeft’s argument, I recommend his book* How to Win the Culture War *or an audio download of his talk which you can find here: peterkreeft.com/audio.htm ).
M
mkingdomlvr
Guest
They “bought into it” because they probably feel the same way she does, which is why the difference between public and private citizen Catholics is important. If you’re going to say that a public figure who does not hold fast to Church teaching must go, then you have to apply that same standard to the Catholic private citizen who does the same thing. And just how do you go about doing that?I guess that begs the question if an orthodox Catholic can get elected to a prominant leadership position in America. Personally, I think not. To get elected to a federal level governing position means making compromises; there’s not one single squeaky-clean legislator in the whole of federal government, methinks.
That doesn’t mean, however, that we shouldn’t try to find and elect them.
The point is well taken in this thread that “Pro-Choice, Catholic” pols are damaging to the faith and the faithful. We have our own Governor “I personally oppose but publically support abortion since it is the law” Jenny Granholm here in Michigan. Thankfully, she’ll be term-limited out of office at the end of her current term.
It burns my rear end that she pandered to the Catholic vote by using her “sunday-go-to-mass-ness”…but bugs me even more that many Catholics bought into it hook, line and sinker.
I have many friends who have already left the Catholic Church voluntarily because of their feelings about social teachings, but they could have continued going to Mass every week and believing what they did.
If the Bishops are going to kick out the public figures, they’re going to have to make it very clear that everyone who believes as those public figures do are no longer welcome.
R
romanholiday
Guest
There is an easy and logical distinction that would clear up this entire mess. That distinction is between sinners and outright dissenters.
The former are those who try to live according to the teachings of Christ as given through His Church but often fall short in varying ways. Those people strive to recognize their sins, repent of them and work to more closely align their lives to Christ. These are NOT the people being talked about in regard to excommunication and the like.
The latter are those who only want to accept and live out the teachings they happen to like or agree with at a given moment. They give lip service to certain Church teachings but aren’t really trying to live out those teachings. Often, these people publicly contradict settled doctrine in areas of faith and/or morals. This is called either formal or material heresy (I know, we don’t like nasty words like that these days). Sometimes these folks even try to say that certain sins are actually virtues! Unfortunately, many of these people call themselves “thinking” Catholics and hold positions of political power, or teach in Catholic schools and parishes and sometimes are even members of the ordained. These are the people that should have some sort of disciplinary measures taken against them.
See…a clear and easy way to mark the difference between an authentic member of the Church (sinners) and one who is simply living a lie and pretending to be a Catholic(dissenters).
The former are those who try to live according to the teachings of Christ as given through His Church but often fall short in varying ways. Those people strive to recognize their sins, repent of them and work to more closely align their lives to Christ. These are NOT the people being talked about in regard to excommunication and the like.
The latter are those who only want to accept and live out the teachings they happen to like or agree with at a given moment. They give lip service to certain Church teachings but aren’t really trying to live out those teachings. Often, these people publicly contradict settled doctrine in areas of faith and/or morals. This is called either formal or material heresy (I know, we don’t like nasty words like that these days). Sometimes these folks even try to say that certain sins are actually virtues! Unfortunately, many of these people call themselves “thinking” Catholics and hold positions of political power, or teach in Catholic schools and parishes and sometimes are even members of the ordained. These are the people that should have some sort of disciplinary measures taken against them.
See…a clear and easy way to mark the difference between an authentic member of the Church (sinners) and one who is simply living a lie and pretending to be a Catholic(dissenters).
M
mkingdomlvr
Guest
Your definition below could apply to a whole lot of people- and not just in the area of social teachings. Many Catholics are quite good at following teachings regarding abortion, euthanasia and homosexuality, but when it comes to other teachings of Christ they’re a bit less enthusiastic.
- Status