A Modest Proposal

[chain]

There is also the difference between being out of full communion with the church and being excommunicated. There is no question here that the church needs to express it’s teachings. The question is how best to express them. On one hand there is the damage done to the church by the scandal these public figures are causing. On the other is the mercy which they need for their eternal salvation.

Irregardless, the primary purpose of excommunication and withholding sacraments is not punishment, but icu for the person’s soul. When applied with mercy, they can be powerful tools for grace and healing.

I suspect many members here have been out of communion with the church - because often that very experiance creates the most faithful Catholic - ones who would lovingly crawl to the alter for Eucharist.

 

[Don_Schneider]

… the primary purpose of excommunication and withholding sacraments is not punishment, but icu for the person’s soul. When applied with mercy, they can be powerful tools for grace and healing.

Dear Chain,

This is exactly correct, and the mere fact that so many fail to realize such is symptomatic of people simply not taking the Church and Her teachings seriously; most egregiously, the prelature and clergy of the Church Herself. They simply do not realize or refuse to acknowledge that their primary purpose is: to save souls.

Until they come to this realization and begin to act accordingly, our Church will remain a jest in the eyes of many.

 

[JRKH]

I recently moved South, and I must admit that the evangelical Christian pastors around here have no such hesitation in preaching their beliefs-and their churches are full every Sunday. The Catholic church down here is also far more forceful in regard to preaching against homosexuality and abortion than they were up North where I used to live. I’ve also heard sermons here that call politicians out by name-which I never heard back in NJ. The Masses here are packed to the rafters, so it hasn’t been an issue.

My feeling is that in a more liberal area, Priests were more concerned about losing members and donations. Down here, people are more conservative and would not disagree with Priests talking tough.

This also fits with what i understand to be the case with religious orders.
Those who are more othodox and conservative have little trouble recruiting young people to their ranks.
I read just recently in our diocesen paper that Women’s religious who wear formal habits are more attractive to youner women than those orders who do not wear formal habits. Likewise it is my understanding that while diocesan seminaries struggle to get vocations the FSSP seminary is full.

The Faithful crave clarity and leadership, in orhter word orthodoxy - especially our young. The sooner the Bishops in America figure that out the better.
It is my profound hope that each time a new Bishop or Cardinal is named, the Holy Father will select the brightest and most conservative he can find. That way the church will gradually swing back to Orthodoxy and clarity where she belongs.

Peace
James

 

[cephas161619]

It is my profound hope that each time a new Bishop or Cardinal is named, the Holy Father will select the brightest and most conservative he can find. That way the church will gradually swing back to Orthodoxy and clarity where she belongs.

He did that. The results were not as expected. There was mass protest.

 

[mkingdomlvr]

This also fits with what i understand to be the case with religious orders.
Those who are more othodox and conservative have little trouble recruiting young people to their ranks.
I read just recently in our diocesen paper that Women’s religious who wear formal habits are more attractive to youner women than those orders who do not wear formal habits. Likewise it is my understanding that while diocesan seminaries struggle to get vocations the FSSP seminary is full.

The Faithful crave clarity and leadership, in orhter word orthodoxy - especially our young. The sooner the Bishops in America figure that out the better.
It is my profound hope that each time a new Bishop or Cardinal is named, the Holy Father will select the brightest and most conservative he can find. That way the church will gradually swing back to Orthodoxy and clarity where she belongs.

Peace
James

That may be true, but I also think that the Church will see a decline in attendance in many areas and they need to be ready for that. Like I said, the South is pretty conservative and becoming more orthodox will likely work fine here, but it’s not going to play everywhere.

 

[JRKH]

He did that. The results were not as expected. There was mass protest.

I’m not sure what you are refering too here. Statements such as this convey no information at all.
There are many many Bishops in this country and I don’t know how many have been replaced or where these “protests” occurred.

In any event. The determination of a Bishop is not a democratic process.
The Church is the physical manifestation of Christ’s Kingdom on earth.
Once the Vicar of Christ has determined the choice of a Bishop that is that.

Peace
James

 

[cephas161619]

I’m not sure what you are refering too here. Statements such as this convey no information at all.
There are many many Bishops in this country and I don’t know how many have been replaced or where these “protests” occurred.

In any event. The determination of a Bishop is not a democratic process.
The Church is the physical manifestation of Christ’s Kingdom on earth.
Once the Vicar of Christ has determined the choice of a Bishop that is that.

Sorry, I thought it was widely made known by the news media. Gerhard Maria Wagner was appointed Bishop of Linz (Austria) by Benedict XVI earlier this year. This appointment was not accepted by the people. There was talk of malicious allegations leading to his asking to withdraw the nomination. Nothing to do with this country. It’s only within the last 100 years or so that the Pope has appointed Bishops instead of the local powers.

 

[graceandglory]

Once again, Grace, I simply cannot believe that you or any other Catholic could possibly make such a statement if you truly accepted the Church’s teaching on life. What other issue could possibly equate in seriousness and immediate concern to the judicial murder of 80 million human beings in the U.S. alone since Roe?

If you or anyone is not willing to accept the Church’s teaching, then why would you or anyone want to belong to Her? It is totally illogical. What possible eternal benefit do you feel you will derive from it?

The fact that the Church leadership refuses to take seriously their own teachings is the most grievous sin in the history of the Church. Moreover, many within the Church’s prelature actually seem aggrieved that any of the faithful would “presume” to take *them *seriously.

Don, I believe as strongly as you in the Catholic teaching on the sanctity of all life.
Why I made that statement is because the majority of the Catholics who are in Communion with their faith are not HAVING ABORTIONS. But they are killing one another and their souls with other unconfessed sins that injure and shove people away from the Church faster than life issues.

For example, your judgemental words toward me HURT ME. Telling me that I am illogical and don’t accept the Church’s teaching on life HURTS MY FEELINGS and is DESTRUCTIVE to the Body of Christ.

See James chapter 3. I think you owe me an apology.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Sorry, I thought it was widely made known by the news media. Gerhard Maria Wagner was appointed Bishop of Linz (Austria) by Benedict XVI earlier this year. This appointment was not accepted by the people. There was talk of malicious allegations leading to his asking to withdraw the nomination. Nothing to do with this country. It’s only within the last 100 years or so that the Pope has appointed Bishops instead of the local powers.

Here is a quote from The Guardian (of London) regarding Fr. Wagner’s appointment:

“Liberal Catholics have said they fear the Pope is steering the church in an ultra-conservative direction. In a commentary in the Süddeutsche Zeitung, the Swiss theologian and Catholic priest Hans Küng, who has been at loggerheads with the Vatican for years, wrote: ‘The Pope risks losing the trust of millions of Catholics across the world.’”

Why did Fr. Wagner and the pope bow to pressure? Can one imagine a more definitive indication that one is right than by having one’s views and actions condemned by Hans Küng?

As the feminists are wont to say, people “just don’t get it.” Yes, a rigid crackdown now would lead to the loss of many; the Church’s own fault for the folly of Vatican II and waiting so long afterwards. But before long we shall grow again from the faithful remnant, and many of the same people who left will come crawling back when they find there is no spiritual satisfaction in whatever “do as you please” religion they joined in the interim, especially as they age and observe contemporaries passing away.

Cephas, there is no solace or comfort in make believe religions. Deep down, folks realize that.

 

[cephas161619]

Why did Fr. Wagner and the pope bow to pressure? Can one imagine a more definitive indication that one is right than by having one’s views and actions condemned by Hans Küng?

Why did they bow to pressure? I don’t know, but I am glad that the Pope has the infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit in matters of faith and he knew how to react.

Not even Hans Küng is always wrong. The devil knows the power of God and trembles. The Küng condemnation tells us nothing.

 

[Don_Schneider]

Don, I believe as strongly as you in the Catholic teaching on the sanctity of all life.
Why I made that statement is because the majority of the Catholics who are in Communion with their faith are not HAVING ABORTIONS. But they are killing one another and their souls with other unconfessed sins that injure and shove people away from the Church faster than life issues.

For example, your judgemental words toward me HURT ME. Telling me that I am illogical and don’t accept the Church’s teaching on life HURTS MY FEELINGS and is DESTRUCTIVE to the Body of Christ.

See James chapter 3. I think you owe me an apology.

Yes, Grace, I do see your point now. The Church’s mission is to save souls; and one can be lost as surely to other things as to abortion. So I do apologize for my misunderstanding of your views and my reaction to them.

Nevertheless, I’m sure you would agree that taken in its entirety no issue can reach the level of urgency as does the abortion issue. Most of us, thankfully, will live on for quite awhile and have the opportunity to change our ways, if such needs doing. However, the slaughter of the latter day Holy Innocents continues unabated and there is little time to save any individual one. Therefore, the Church should concentrate on this issue as no other and throw every resource She has into the fight to end it, short of violence.

Thank you.

Don

 

[JRKH]

Sorry, I thought it was widely made known by the news media. Gerhard Maria Wagner was appointed Bishop of Linz (Austria) by Benedict XVI earlier this year. This appointment was not accepted by the people. There was talk of malicious allegations leading to his asking to withdraw the nomination. Nothing to do with this country. It’s only within the last 100 years or so that the Pope has appointed Bishops instead of the local powers.

Ah - Yes I do remember sormething about this, but to tell you the truth I don’t follow the news much. Especially when it deals with appointing a Bishop in Europe and I’m in Ohio.

But I hope you see how your statement can be misconstrued. Here you are commenting about problems with one appointment and not even in this country when we are talking about issues here in the U.S.

Peace
James

 

[cephas161619]

Ah - Yes I do remember sormething about this, but to tell you the truth I don’t follow the news much. Especially when it deals with appointing a Bishop in Europe and I’m in Ohio.

But I hope you see how your statement can be misconstrued. Here you are commenting about problems with one appointment and not even in this country when we are talking about issues here in the U.S.

Yes. You’ll forgive me. When you speak about the Church, I presume you’re talking about the universal Catholic Church, not the American Church.

 

[JRKH]

Yes. You’ll forgive me. When you speak about the Church, I presume you’re talking about the universal Catholic Church, not the American Church.

No problem.
You are right also in that Catholic is Universal.
Pax

Peace
James

 

[Christopher68]

Yes, Grace, I do see your point now. The Church’s mission is to save souls; and one can be lost as surely to other things as to abortion. So I do apologize for my misunderstanding of your views and my reaction to them.

Nevertheless, I’m sure you would agree that taken in its entirety no issue can reach the level of urgency as does the abortion issue. Most of us, thankfully, will live on for quite awhile and have the opportunity to change our ways, if such needs doing. However, the slaughter of the latter day Holy Innocents continues unabated and there is little time to save any individual one. Therefore, the Church should concentrate on this issue as no other and throw every resource She has into the fight to end it, short of violence.

Thank you.

Don

Don,

Are you suggesting that the Church commit essentially ALL resources, including people and finances, to the abortion fight? Do you want ‘every’ homily at mass to be on abortion? And when we leave mass on Sundays, do you want us to find anti-abortion literature stuck on our car windshields every week? If the Church’s focus is ‘all on abortion - all the time’ - that doesn’t leave much time (or any time, for that matter) for any other valuable Church services.

And how active are you suggesting we get involved in government efforts against abortion? Are you ultimately seeking an activist government response - such as an all out government effort to end abortion? If yes, how would this ‘war’ possibly succeed, when the governments ‘war on drugs’ has NOT curtailed drug use and has in fact created new and unintended problems?

 

[JRKH]

Don,

Are you suggesting that the Church commit essentially ALL resources, including people and finances, to the abortion fight? Do you want ‘every’ homily at mass to be on abortion? And when we leave mass on Sundays, do you want us to find anti-abortion literature stuck on our car windshields every week? If the Church’s focus is ‘all on abortion - all the time’ - that doesn’t leave much time (or any time, for that matter) for any other valuable Church services.

Excuse me for intruding here but …
If we were to really be honest with ourselves about this, most ALL catholics could give more resources to Church activities than we do. That includes both money and time.
In so far as Catholics acting on the abortion issue, definitely YES there needs to be more sermons on this, as well as contraception. Not necessrily “Fire and Brimstone” but certainly educational and firm. Also, YES, we should get out and picket abortion clinics as much as possible and with the law.

And how active are you suggesting we get involved in government efforts against abortion? Are you ultimately seeking an activist government response - such as an all out government effort to end abortion? If yes, how would this ‘war’ possibly succeed, when the governments ‘war on drugs’ has NOT curtailed drug use and has in fact created new and unintended problems?

Abortion was legalized by Court coup and without scientific support. So yes - we should be involved in a government effort to make it illegal agian. It will succeed by making the effort concentrate on Public education so that they are resensitized to the fact that this is a human being that is being killed.
In the 1960’s the War in Vietnam was lost here at home. Why? because the public became convinced that it was wrong. It was through protests and the presenting of “uncomfortable truths” to the American Public that enough people finally became convinced that the War needed to be ended.

As to your reference to Drug laws and “unintended consequences”, such things will always exist. Perhaps you are too young to remember a time when Abortion was illegal. Illegal abortions did exist, but they were recognized for what they were, Murder.
What can be done is that our unborn children can be protected from being murdered simply because they haven’t reached a certain age, or point in development.

Peace
James

 

[Christopher68]

Excuse me for intruding here but …
If we were to really be honest with ourselves about this, most ALL catholics could give more resources to Church activities than we do. That includes both money and time.
In so far as Catholics acting on the abortion issue, definitely YES there needs to be more sermons on this, as well as contraception. Not necessrily “Fire and Brimstone” but certainly educational and firm. Also, YES, we should get out and picket abortion clinics as much as possible and with the law.

Abortion was legalized by Court coup and without scientific support. So yes - we should be involved in a government effort to make it illegal agian. It will succeed by making the effort concentrate on Public education so that they are resensitized to the fact that this is a human being that is being killed.
In the 1960’s the War in Vietnam was lost here at home. Why? because the public became convinced that it was wrong. It was through protests and the presenting of “uncomfortable truths” to the American Public that enough people finally became convinced that the War needed to be ended.

As to your reference to Drug laws and “unintended consequences”, such things will always exist. Perhaps you are too young to remember a time when Abortion was illegal. Illegal abortions did exist, but they were recognized for what they were, Murder.
What can be done is that our unborn children can be protected from being murdered simply because they haven’t reached a certain age, or point in development.

Peace
James

James,

Your response is certainly welcome.

I realize that for some people such as yourself and Don, that pro-life is the overriding issue of the day. For me, as someone who is a Catholic and also a libertarian, the overriding issue of the day is the continual expansion of the federal government, which I view as very detrimental. For instance, a government that can use power to enforce Catholic dogma, can also use that same power to enforce ideals in direct oppostion to our beliefs.

I respect where you’re coming from. I suspect we just have completey different notions about the proper role of government.

 

[JRKH]

James,

Your response is certainly welcome.

I realize that for some people such as yourself and Don, that pro-life is the overriding issue of the day. For me, as someone who is a Catholic and also a libertarian, the overriding issue of the day is the continual expansion of the federal government, which I view as very detrimental. For instance, a government that can use power to enforce Catholic dogma, can also use that same power to enforce ideals in direct oppostion to our beliefs.

I respect where you’re coming from. I suspect we just have completey different notions about the proper role of government.

Why would you assume that I want the Government to enforce Catholic Dogma???
I want no such thing.
I want the Government to protect innocent human beings. Americans who are being slaughtered for no other reason than age/geography
Science tells us that those in the womb are humans. No Law can change that fact.
Since they are human they deserve protection.

As the government stands now, in permitting abortion and in supporting Planned Parenthood the Government is doing what you hate interfering in private matters. The recognition of Abortion as murder and cutting off planned parenthood from Gov’t support, would be a reduction of the Federal Government which fits with what you to wish for. It would reduce federal the money spent on such private issues.

Peace
James

 

[Christopher68]

Why would you assume that I want the Government to enforce Catholic Dogma???
I want no such thing.
I want the Government to protect innocent human beings. Americans who are being slaughtered for no other reason than age/geography
Science tells us that those in the womb are humans. No Law can change that fact.
Since they are human they deserve protection.

As the government stands now, in permitting abortion and in supporting Planned Parenthood the Government is doing what you hate interfering in private matters. The recognition of Abortion as murder and cutting off planned parenthood from Gov’t support, would be a reduction of the Federal Government which fits with what you to wish for. It would reduce federal the money spent on such private issues.

Peace
James

James,

Sorry…I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth re government enforcing Catholic dogma.

Regarding my views as a libertarian and what I believe to be the proper role of government, I don’t believe government has a role in this issue (on either side of the issue). Obviously we’ll disagree on that point. However, aside from using the force of government, I fully support your right of free speech to convince the other side that you are right on the sancity of life.

 

[JRKH]

James,

Sorry…I wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth re government enforcing Catholic dogma.

Regarding my views as a libertarian and what I believe to be the proper role of government, I don’t believe government has a role in this issue (on either side of the issue). Obviously we’ll disagree on that point. However, aside from using the force of government, I fully support your right of free speech to convince the other side that you are right on the sancity of life.

Thank you for your kind words. I too hope for reasoned and clear discussion.

It is true that we may currently disagree on this issue, but let me ask you this question.
Even in a limited Government I’m sure you’ll agree that protection of human beings within it’s borders from murder is an acceptable role.
Do you think it is an acceptable role for the Government to determine who is and is not a human being based, not on science, but on political considerations only?

Peace
James