A muslim example of an ideal mother

[Montalban]

Again, I do not accept hadith as authoritative nor do many Muslims. The hadith are supposed sayings and practices of the Prophet found outside of the Holy Quran. While some of the hadith may be possibly from the time of his life and true most came into existence several hundred years after the Prophet’s death. A lot of them were the creation of wicked men to satisfy their own wicked and evil desires. Some of the hadith contradict the Holy Quran as well as each other. For this reason I do not accept them as authority. If there is any truth to any hadith I believe that whatever they say will be complimented and not contradicted by the Holy Quran.

Most Moslems accept the Hadith. I don’t know where you get the ‘not many’ idea from because after the Koran, they’re the most important books for Moslems.

What you should have tried arguing was that this was a particularly ‘weak’ hadith, not that hadith in general aren’t accepted.

As for them contradicting the Koran, then Moslems accept the Koran. This isn’t to reject all hadith outright as your idea of Islam would have us believe.

 

[Montalban]

No problemo.

This is the way I see it. You have idiots going around teaching horrible things in the name of Christianity yet no one here would say I was right to assume Christianity was a false religion because of that. What it seems to me is that you have a few evil people who call themselves Muslim who are perverting the Holy Quran (plus using corrupted hadith) to deceive for their own selfish ends ignorant people. I assume they are ignorant for they could be evil too. What these people do do not prove Islam itself to be false.

When you can’t compare the two, then you shouldn’t attempt to do so.

People who go around proclaiming all manner of things in the name of Jesus - we test that against Jesus’ own teachings.

People who go around proclaiming all manner of things in the name of al-Lah, we likewise test against those teachings.

Christians who do evil, do so in spite of Jesus Christ.

Muhammed over-saw the execution of PoWs, and the political killing of opponents. There’s centuries of Islamic scholars evoking holy war in the name of al-Lah. These evils are done because of Islam

 

[jack_hawkins]

No problemo.

This is the way I see it. You have idiots going around teaching horrible things in the name of Christianity yet no one here would say I was right to assume Christianity was a false religion because of that. What it seems to me is that you have a few evil people who call themselves Muslim who are perverting the Holy Quran (plus using corrupted hadith) to deceive for their own selfish ends ignorant people. I assume they are ignorant for they could be evil too. What these people do do not prove Islam itself to be false.

No one has offended me here in the least and I am glad that people like Eden are helping fight such thugs.

The righteous Muslims are the ones who don’t follow Mohammed’s example.
The righteous Christians are the ones who follow Christ’s example.
Yes, we can’t judge a faith by the behaviour of adherents who are twisting the teachings of that faith - but with Islam we can see that the Islamists are following the example of Mohammed.
Muslims also tend to equate the post-Christian Western world with Christianity for some bizarre reason, whilst ignoring the uber-Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia. What about the hudood laws? Indonesia?
We also observe that the righteous Muslims who speak out against the terrorists and Islamists are attacked by their fellow Muslims, even ejected from the mosques. Look at size of the demos against the Danish cartoons compared to the demos (if there were any) against the tube bombings?

 

[Jayda]

hola,

I think there is a danger in this thread and others of falling into false comparison.s… I mean this with respect to the tit-for-tat arguments about behavior of believers representing the faith itself. the Holy Catholic Church and Islam are very different in how sin, disbelief or heresy is dealt with by the community.

In Roman Catholicism there are rules, which if you break them you are universally condemned and not part of the Church… belief in heresy, committing apostacy or schism, committing certain sins, and disobeying the Holy Father or a bishop when you are explicitly told to do something or face excommunication call all separate you from the Church. the Church calls this a medicinal punishment, which means that by witholding salvation the Church is demanding you to return back and abandon whatever you have done that is evil.

Excommunication is just one way you can find yourself no longer a Catholic.

There are other punishments from the Church for disbelief and breaking commandments.

Within Islam this is not so… I was curious about this several weeks ago and asked muslims what happens when muslims do not practice what they preach… the answer was this:

We do not criticize other muslims publicly who are struggling with the deen just as we are. It’s human nature to say, “I am right and you are wrong” but the truth is that only Allah is capable to make that judgement. If someone acts in a way that they truly believes is the way of Allah then he is without sin.

Muslims will not usually correct/challenge other Muslims in public (but I have frequently seen Muslims do this anyway) but will do so in private later, or ask the Imam to give a khutbah (sermon) on the subject or something, because this is considered more polite and respectful, plus Muslims have to always bear in mind that they may be wrong.

and this

There is not silence when Muslim commit wrongdoing. I have heard Muslim after Muslim after Muslim state that killing innocents, burning embassies because of cartoons etc, is not the right thing to do according to Islam. I have lost count how many times I have heard Muslims saying this, even in the mainstream media. So those who do not hear it either choose not to hear it or do not watch the news or read any of the more intelligent newspapers.

then this

The royal family of Saudi Arabia is an obvious target for criticism because they flaunt what they have taken from the people of Saudi Arabia. Osama Bin Laden OTOH (on the other hand) has completely turned away from materialism and embraced a movement who’s goals are to further their understanding of Islam. I often do not agree with what they have done but it is not my place to say that they are or aren’t acting out of love for Allah. Given the opportunity I would love to be able to sit down and speak with the shaykh about my misgivings but failing that, I will not speak harshly against him other then to say that I do not share his vision

A very confusing picture that seems to say “we do not criticize muslims, except for terrorism, except for Osama bin Laden.”

What I understood from this conversation was that muslims might feel like something that is done is not right by Islam, but they have nothing in place to say it is not and they are very apprehensive about condemning the actions of other muslims.

So when comparing Catholicism and Islam it is very important to remember that we Catholics do not just say something is not part of Catholicism, there are channels that actually bring heresies and sins outside the fold of the Holy Catholic Church. In Islam this is not necessarily so… apparently… and with no superstructure with full ecclesiastic power (like in Catholicism) comparing the actions of catholics to Catholic doctrine is not the same as comparing the actions of muslims to Islam.

que Dios te bendiga non Catholics
Dominus Vobiscum Catholics

 

[BH_Manners]

Most Moslems accept the Hadith. I don’t know where you get the ‘not many’ idea from because after the Koran, they’re the most important books for Moslems.

What you should have tried arguing was that this was a particularly ‘weak’ hadith, not that hadith in general aren’t accepted.

As for them contradicting the Koran, then Moslems accept the Koran. This isn’t to reject all hadith outright as your idea of Islam would have us believe.

Greetings and Salutations.

I will respond to the new posts when I get back from work tonight, God willing.

See you all later and enjoy the day.

 

[cestusdei]

Do you have a link?

I do not endorse any terrorist group whether it calls itself Muslim, Jewish, or Christian.

It was in the Tulsa World. Also check www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014202.php

It was all over the news last November. Hamas and Hezbullah are on the State Departments list of terrorist organizations and they have committed terrorist acts. I would like to see you explicitly, and by name, denouce both groups.

 

[BH_Manners]

OTE=Montalban;2007611]Most Moslems accept the Hadith. I don’t know where you get the ‘not many’ idea from because after the Koran, they’re the most important books for Moslems.

Dear friend,

Go back and reread what I wrote. I never said most Muslims do not follow hadith. I said there are many who do not.

What you should have tried arguing was that this was a particularly ‘weak’ hadith, not that hadith in general aren’t accepted.

Since I do not believe in the hadith why should I?

As for them contradicting the Koran, then Moslems accept the Koran. This isn’t to reject all hadith outright as your idea of Islam would have us believe.

I am sorry but there are Muslims who reject hadith as a source for religious authority. You are correct that Muslims, both pro or non hadith accept the Holy Quran as inspired.

 

[BH_Manners]

When you can’t compare the two, then you shouldn’t attempt to do so.

People who go around proclaiming all manner of things in the name of Jesus - we test that against Jesus’ own teachings.

People who go around proclaiming all manner of things in the name of al-Lah, we likewise test against those teachings.

Christians who do evil, do so in spite of Jesus Christ.

Muhammed over-saw the execution of PoWs, and the political killing of opponents. There’s centuries of Islamic scholars evoking holy war in the name of al-Lah. These evils are done because of Islam

Would you please show me where these things are commanded in the Holy Quran?

 

[BH_Manners]

The righteous Muslims are the ones who don’t follow Mohammed’s example.
The righteous Christians are the ones who follow Christ’s example.
Yes, we can’t judge a faith by the behaviour of adherents who are twisting the teachings of that faith - but with Islam we can see that the Islamists are following the example of Mohammed.
Muslims also tend to equate the post-Christian Western world with Christianity for some bizarre reason, whilst ignoring the uber-Muslim countries like Saudi Arabia. What about the hudood laws? Indonesia?
We also observe that the righteous Muslims who speak out against the terrorists and Islamists are attacked by their fellow Muslims, even ejected from the mosques. Look at size of the demos against the Danish cartoons compared to the demos (if there were any) against the tube bombings?

The righteous Muslim is one who believes in God and obeys to the best of his abilty what is written in the Holy Quran.

 

[BH_Manners]

**

hola,

I think there is a danger in this thread and others of falling into false comparison.s… I mean this with respect to the tit-for-tat arguments about behavior of believers representing the faith itself. the Holy Catholic Church and Islam are very different in how sin, disbelief or heresy is dealt with by the community.

In Roman Catholicism there are rules, which if you break them you are universally condemned and not part of the Church… belief in heresy, committing apostacy or schism, committing certain sins, and disobeying the Holy Father or a bishop when you are explicitly told to do something or face excommunication call all separate you from the Church. the Church calls this a medicinal punishment, which means that by witholding salvation the Church is demanding you to return back and abandon whatever you have done that is evil.

Excommunication is just one way you can find yourself no longer a Catholic.

There are other punishments from the Church for disbelief and breaking commandments.

Within Islam this is not so… I was curious about this several weeks ago and asked muslims what happens when muslims do not practice what they preach… the answer was this:

A very confusing picture that seems to say “we do not criticize muslims, except for terrorism, except for Osama bin Laden.”

What I understood from this conversation was that muslims might feel like something that is done is not right by Islam, but they have nothing in place to say it is not and they are very apprehensive about condemning the actions of other muslims.

I disagree with what these people have said.Tthey apparantly do not read their Holy Qurans as much as they should be and in fact should be ashamed of themselves and the advice they gave you.

The Holy Quran plainly tells us to rebuke, warn, and teach those who need it. It also tells us to stand up for what is right even if you put yourself in opposition of family members. The Quran also authorizes civil government to keep the peace and enforce laws created by society so as to preserve order, and harmony.

So when comparing Catholicism and Islam it is very important to remember that we Catholics do not just say something is not part of Catholicism, there are channels that actually bring heresies and sins outside the fold of the Holy Catholic Church. In Islam this is not necessarily so… apparently… and with no superstructure with full ecclesiastic power (like in Catholicism) comparing the actions of catholics to Catholic doctrine is not the same as comparing the actions of muslims to Islam.

The Holy Quran says that there are and will be people who are believers in name only— they are “the hypocrites” and fuel for hell. These people are lost because they read and hear God’s word but deliberately reject it and refuse to obey. This puts one out of the fold of salvation and continues to do so unless one repents. It also warns of creating your own doctrines and falsley saying they are God’s doctrines.**

 

[BH_Manners]

It was in the Tulsa World. Also check www.jihadwatch.org/archives/014202.php

It was all over the news last November. Hamas and Hezbullah are on the State Departments list of terrorist organizations and they have committed terrorist acts. I would like to see you explicitly, and by name, denouce both groups.

I’ll be happy to condemn Hamas and Hezbollah.

Even if the Israelis are oppressing Muslims, the way Hamas and Hezbollah are going about carrying out Jihad is not Quranic and wrong. First off, I don’t buy the “every Jew in Israel is a combatant” argument. There are LOTS of Jews both in Israel and out of it who are against what the Zionists are doing in the West Bank supposedly. When the idiot terrorists blow up a building or shoot a missle into a town square they may be hitting people who otherwise would be on the Muslim’s side though Israeli. they also may be hitting little children too old to know their left hand from there right hand. This makes them just as bad as the Israelis and actually worse, for they are supposed to be guided by the Holy Quran which is truth whereas the Israelis follow a corrupted form of religion.

Of course, you must remember that I haven’t been to Israel and asked Palestinians and Israelis about what is going on in the ocupied territories. I can oly go by what I have read in the news, net, or seen on tv. All sources so far have said that Hezbollah and Hamas have used missles and bombs to kill civilians. Even if the Israelis are flat out wrong in EVERYTHING Hezbollah and Hamas still err in their practice.

Now, will you condemn the CIA, FBI, and NSA for dirty things they have done in the past?

 

[Montalban]

Would you please show me where these things are commanded in the Holy Quran?

Your challenge is false, because I can evidence the Hadith, which you personally don’t believe are authentic per se whereas most Moslems do. So I’ll deal with this false set-up first.
Muslims regard Muhammad the best example of man.

Muslims believe that Muhammad is the ideal man - an example for all time (hence that is why Allah chose him - because he was a cut above the rest)

“The Lord of the universe, The Most Merciful and Compassionate sent about 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nook and corner of this earth to guide humanity towards understanding the purpose of its creation and thereby surrender to His Divine Laws and achieve its final destiny of Eternal Peace in His Paradise. The last messenger of God who brought His last revelation the Holy Quraan to humanity is Muhammad bin 'Abdullah, born in Mekkah, approximately 550 years after Jesus, son of Mary, peace and blessings of God be on them both. This is the account of this last Messenger of God, the most remarkable man, that human history has known.”
daar-ul-ehsaan.org/truth/must.htm

“The Prophet accomplished all this through the strength of his character and personal example;”
4newmuslims.org/prophet.htm
The Haddiths though not perfect, are second to the Koran for sources of instruction for Muslims

Some might say that the Haddiths are not perfect, but that’s only when compared with the Koran… “The point is not that Hadith is an unreliable source of information. On the contrary, Hadith lacks the level of reliability which is entailed in the basic sources of the Shari`ah. In other words, it is only when compared to the Qur’an and the Sunnah that Hadith seems wanting in reliability. Nevertheless, if one were to compare Hadith with, for instance, sources of other histories, it would easily surpass the reliability of the sources of other histories on all accounts. This is only due to the strenuous work done by the scholars of Hadith in this field of study.”

understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=319&sscatid=69
As to the PoWs, this is a specific incident. First there’s however there’s a general Koranic calling for people to be killed
47.4 So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah’s Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah’s Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost,

Then, there’s a Sura that deals specifically with this massacre of PoWs

“And He has caused to descend from their strongholds the Jews that assisted them. And he struck terror into their hearts. Some you slaughtered and some you took prisoner”
Sura 33.25

Then there’s the Hadith that deals specifically with this massacre too.
“Bani An-Nadir and Bani Quraiza fought, so the Prophet (Muhammad) exiled Bani An-Nadir and allowed Bani Quraiza to remain at their places. He then killed their men and distributed their women, children and property among the Muslims, but some of them came to the Prophet and he granted them safety, and they embraced Islam. He exiled all the Jews from Medina. They were the Jews of Bani Qainuqa’, the tribe of 'Abdullah bin Salam and the Jews of Bani Haritha and all the other Jews of Medina.”
(Hadith, Sahih Bukhari 5:59:362)
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.362

 

[Montalban]

And here’s a modern opinion
“Question : How are prisoners of war treated in Islam?
Answer : Praise be to Allaah.

Islam is the religion of mercy and justice; it commands us to call others to the religion of Allaah in a kind and good manner, and to encourage people to enter this great religion. If some people persist in rejecting the religion of Allaah and stand in the way of ruling by that which Allaah has revealed on earth, or they fight against the call to Allaah, then we give them the choice of three things:

Either they become Muslim; or if they refuse they pay the jizyah (whereby they pay a specified amount to the Muslims in return for being allowed to remain their land, and the Muslims undertake to protect them); or, if they refuse that, there is nothing left but the way which they themselves have chosen, which is fighting and dealing violently with those who have persecuted the Muslims and put obstacles in the path of the Islamic da’wah.”
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=13241&ln=eng
Note if some people ‘resist’, or if they ‘persist in rejecting’ they can be killed

Here’s an Islamic site that agrees with this event happening…
Now Sa’d Ibn Mu’ath (RA) delivered his judgment: “I enjoin that all the men of Banu Quraithah be put to death and their wives and children be treated like prisoners of war while their wealth and properties be divided among the Muslims.” Following this judgment Banu Quraithah were ordered to come out of the fort and they were all brought to Al-Madinah in custody. At last, following the judgment, their men were killed and their dwellings were given to the Muslims.
From: The History of Islam, Vol.1
islamweb.net/ver2/archive/readArt.php?id=37137&lang=E

Thus you have Muhammad as the ‘example’ of behaviour. His behaviour in the Hadith and Koran show that he over-saw the slaughter of PoWs. They were deemed to have ‘resisted’ Muhammad (and by virtue of this the prophet of al-Lah) and they were slaughtered.

 

[Montalban]

The righteous Muslim is one who believes in God and obeys to the best of his abilty what is written in the Holy Quran.

… and the Hadith… and Islamic opinion over the centuries (with due respect in that order).

Then unfortunately, your god commands you to do evil.
At this stage, the situation became unbearable and could no longer be put up with. The Prophet gathered his men and said: “Who will kill Ka‘b bin Al-Ashraf? He had maligned Allâh, and His Messenger.” Thereupon, Muhammad bin Maslamah, ‘Abbad bin Bishr, Al-Harith bin Aws, Abu ‘Abs bin Hibr and Salkan bin Salamah, Ka‘b’s foster brother, volunteered to do the job.

Muhammad bin Maslamah said: “O Messenger of Allâh, do you wish that I should kill him?” He said: “Yes.” He said: “Permit me to talk (to him in the way I deem fit).” He said: “Talk (as you like).” So, Muhammad bin Maslamah came to Ka‘b and talked to him, saying: “This man (i.e. the Prophet ) has made up his mind to collect charity (from us) and this has put us to a great hardship.” When he heard this, Ka‘b said: “By Allâh you will be put to more trouble by him.” Muhammad bin Maslamah answered: “No doubt, now we have become his followers and we do not like to forsake him until we see what turn his affairs will take. I want that you should give me a loan.” He said: “What will you mortgage?” Muhammad answered: “What do you want?” The immoral and heartless Jew demanded women and children as articles of security against the debt. Muhammad said: “Should we pledge our women whereas you are the most handsome of the Arabs; and the son of one of us may be abused by saying that he was pledged for two wasq (measurement unit of weight) of dates but we can pledge you (our) weapons.” Ka‘b agreed. Salkan bin Salamah, Abu Na’ilah, at another time, went to see Ka‘b for the same purpose and there were more or less the same subjects, only that Abu Na’ilah would bring him some companions. The plan was successful and provided for the presence of both men and weapons. On Rabi‘ Al-Awwal 14th, at night, the year 3 A.H. the people said good bye to the Prophet and set out in the Name of Allâh to implement the carefully drawn plan. The Prophet stayed back praying for them and supplicating Allâh to render them success. The men went and called upon him at night. He came down although his wife warned him not to meet them alleging that: “I hear a voice which sounds like the voice of murder.” He said: “It is only Muhammad bin Maslamah and my foster brother Abu Na’ilah. When a gentleman is called at night even if he be pierced with a spear, he should respond to the call.” Abu Na’ilah said to his companions: “As he comes down, I will extend my hand towards his head to smell and when I hold him fast, you should do your job.” So when he came down, they talked together for about an hour. They then invited him to go out and spend a nice time in the moonlight. On the way out, Abu Na’ilah remarked: “I smell the nicest perfume from you.” Ka‘b said: “Yes, I have with me a mistress who is the most scented of the women of Arabia.” Abu Na’ilah again said: “Allow me to smell (the scent on your head)”. He said: “Yes, you may smell.” So he caught it and smelt. Then he said: “Allow me to do so(once again).” He then held his head fast and said to his companions: “Do your job.” And they killed him. The group of men came back after fulfilling their mission. One of them Al-Harith bin Aws was wounded by mistake with the swords of his men, and was bleeding badly. When they reached Baqee‘ Al-Gharqad, they shouted, “Allâh is Great”. The Prophet heard them and realized that they had killed the enemy of Allâh. As they saw him, he said: “Cheerful faces are yours.” In reply, they said: “And yours O Messenger of Allâh.” They handed the head of the tyrant over to him. He entertained Allâh’s praise for their success. He then applied his saliva to Al-Harith’s wound and it healed on the spot.]

When the Jews learned about the death of their tyrant, Ka‘b bin Al-Ashraf, they were scared and even their stonelike hearts were in the grip of inexpressible panic. They realized that the Messenger of Allâh would thenceforth never hesitate to use force when good words and admonition failed. They remained silent and resigned, and faked adherence to covenants.

Now the Prophet was free to collect his thoughts and give himself up to resolving foreign affairs, and facing dangers that could be carried with hostile wind blowing again from Makkah.
al-sunnah.com/nektar/9.htm

This site does its best to make more of this man than what he was; a witty writer of songs and poems against Muhammad. So Muhammad had him assassinated. This is clear from where it says that his composing of the words were ‘unbearable’ and it was immediately following this that he was assassinated.

 

[Montalban]

This site also has the ‘enemy’ committing assassinations (see al-sunnah.com/nektar/10.htm) thus Muhammad was no better than the ‘idolators’.

Muhammad was not averse to striking without warning…
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 287:
Narrated Kab bin Malik:
I never failed to join Allah’s Apostle in any of his Ghazawat except in the Ghazwa of Tabuk. However, I did not take part in the Ghazwa of Badr, but none who failed to take part in it, was blamed, for Allah’s Apostle had gone out to meet the caravans of (Quraish, but Allah caused them (i.e. Muslims) to meet their enemy unexpectedly (with no previous intention) .

usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html

The word *assassin *itself comes from Arabic

 

[Jayda]

I disagree with what these people have said.Tthey apparantly do not read their Holy Qurans as much as they should be and in fact should be ashamed of themselves and the advice they gave you.

The Holy Quran plainly tells us to rebuke, warn, and teach those who need it. It also tells us to stand up for what is right even if you put yourself in opposition of family members. The Quran also authorizes civil government to keep the peace and enforce laws created by society so as to preserve order, and harmony.

hola, good morning BH Manners,

I do not know how else to say this but… what authority is there to say you are right and they are not? or for them to say they are right and you are not… I forwarded you the link to the conversation and you could see even amongst themselves they did not agree what the correct course of action is… or in the event they agreed (the majority did) that you must consider somebody not longer a muslim, they did not agree to what circumstances this happens…

in the Holy Catholic Church we have these things specifically laid out for us… the final arbiter is the Church, which is arranged in a top down fashion… but in Islam you have no such superstructure… it is just like protestants who seem to have their bibles their faith and their ability to reason, but that does not work… it gives you a kalaedoscope of opinions each claiming to be the “truth” based all on the same materials…

i do not know if you looked into some of the other questions i asked on that webforum, but one of the things i asked and was confused by is all these different muslim clerics, what happens when they disagree? their is no coherency to this religion…

my point is not to say that Islam does not work… even though i do not believe it does, my point is to say that equivocations between the Church and islam in many circumstances will lead to wrong conclusions because there are serious differences… the Church is a Holy Beauracracy, a monarchy of faith, with official and unchallengeable positions… islam is like some kind of network with confusing different opinions muired in individual interpretations…

so when we say “that person is not Catholic” even though they identify themselves as one, or “that is not right in Catholicism” it is meant authoritatively… we can show you where the Holy Church said “this is final, obey.” but when muslims talk about certain things and say “that person is not a muslim” or “this is not islam” that is in the eye of the beholder, the muslim you are talking about may in fact hold the same view about you… and who is to say either is right? it is a matter of personal judgment at that point…

The Holy Quran says that there are and will be people who are believers in name only— they are “the hypocrites” and fuel for hell. These people are lost because they read and hear God’s word but deliberately reject it and refuse to obey. This puts one out of the fold of salvation and continues to do so unless one repents. It also warns of creating your own doctrines and falsley saying they are God’s doctrines.

i read the quran… one quote i remember is “truth stands out clear from error” i am paraphrasing…

but it is not so… quotes like this leave muslims and all people with the promise that they will read and everything will be clear… with no questions of faith and nothing to arbitrate… it is like it is saying “this is so obvious you do not need a Church” but looking at your religion today how can you say it is so? some muslims say extremists are not muslims, others say moderates are not muslims… but neither can define what these terms mean… there are shias, sunnis, sufis, wahhabis, salafis, ahmadiyya, ishmaelis, druzes and baha’is who have even bigger conflicts of belief… all based on a religion that supposedly stands clear from error.

what you say is their hypocrisy is what they say is your hypocrisy… and both say they are not muslims… or actually some of them would say you are still a muslim because they do not believe it is possible to not be a muslim anymore.

Catholicism is clear… Islam is not… and in that lack of clarity there is room for us to accurately acknowledge islam has violent streaks certain muslims disagree with and certain muslims do not… unlike the Catholic Church which declares something good or something bad and that is the end… so understanding this important difference between us means that we Catholics cannot accept these false equivocations and muslims if they genuinely do wish to understand us should accept this also.

que Dios te bendiga BH Manners

Dominus Vobiscum catholics

 

[Jayda]

Would you please show me where these things are commanded in the Holy Quran?

hola BH Manners,

isnt it so that not everything muslims practice is in the quran though? for example… where in the quran do you find the word or the doctrine “tawhid” (this is their doctrine about the monotheistic nature of God) … muslims are quick to say that the word “Trinity” is not in the bible while they ignore the word “Tawhid” is nowhere in their quran (because it is a combination of two words)…

muslims are also quick to not understand when we explain the Trinity doctrine combines passages of common themed theologia (nature of God) from various places in the bible… even though there is no “tawhid” section of their quran which explains the doctrine… it too is comprised of common themed theologia questions.

i used to be curious about why they could not understand when we do it, but when it is their doctrine it’s perfect sense. to modify upton sinclairs words a little bit…

“It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salvation depends upon his not understanding it”

however unlike Catholics who know what Trinity means, and if they do not there is somebody to authoritatively say “that is wrong” muslims do not even agree on which “tawhid” i am talking about… shias have a different understanding than sunnis who have a different understanding than salafis. please see the wikipedia entry about this.

you have traditions, doctrines and extra scriptural beliefs just like all religions, and i think the argument that if it is not in the quran then it is not part of islam is disingenuous for this reason…

you have doctrines that are central to the faith and you have traditions that you consider just as holy as the quran (for all intents and purposes)… your prayers with rakas and their names are taken from these traditions… as are many of the violent beliefs about war, deception and treatment of those who are not muslim.

i think maybe you know this… at least i hope you do. so knowing this isnt it unfair of you to ask us to find something in the quran only? as if you are saying “this is not part of islam because it isnt in the quran,” i ask because it seems like sometimes muslims will use their contradictory beliefs from their various sources to justify the sweetest sounding thing at the moment… like you will say “there is a hadith about this” here but when asked under a different light you could say “the quran says this,” or leverage their denominational differences “that is a shia practice” “this is a sunni practice.”

que Dios te bendiga

 

[Eden]

The righteous Muslim is one who believes in God and obeys to the best of his abilty what is written in the Holy Quran.

The Quran requires a dutiful Muslim to use terror, i.e. terrorism:

“Strike terror (into the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies.” Surah 8:60

“Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and Allah will punish (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame.” Surah 9:14

“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah.” Surah 8:12, 17

“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.” Surah 9:5

“Fight (kill)* those who believe not in Allah, nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.*”
Surah 9:29

 

[jack_hawkins]

The righteous Muslim is one who believes in God and obeys to the best of his abilty what is written in the Holy Quran.

Sadly, NO. Mohammed was a pedophilic, raping, murdering caravan raider.
Are Muslims just required to believe in God? NO. They have to believe that Mohammed is his messenger as well. That is why Mohammedans is a more accurate term. Mohammedans follow Mohammed - they mention his name with Allah’s five times a day.

 

[BH_Manners]

Part 1

**

Your challenge is false, because I can evidence the Hadith, which you personally don’t believe are authentic per se

whereas most Moslems do. So I’ll deal with this false set-up first.
Muslims regard Muhammad the best example of man.

The so-called Muslims who follow hadith in addition to the Holy Quran are in grievous error. Whatever you may say that applies to them has no bearing as far as my relationship with God is concerned.

**Muslims believe that Muhammad is the ideal man - an example for all time (hence that is why Allah chose him - because he was a cut above the rest)

“The Lord of the universe, The Most Merciful and Compassionate sent about 124,000 prophets and messengers to every nook and corner of this earth to guide humanity towards understanding the purpose of its creation and thereby surrender to His Divine Laws and achieve its final destiny of Eternal Peace in His Paradise. The last messenger of God who brought His last revelation the Holy Quraan to humanity is Muhammad bin 'Abdullah, born in Mekkah, approximately 550 years after Jesus, son of Mary, peace and blessings of God be on them both. This is the account of this last Messenger of God, the most remarkable man, that human history has known.”
daar-ul-ehsaan.org/truth/must.htm**

Prophet Muhammed was a man just like you or I. He is even rebuked a few times for personal shortcomings in the Holy Quran itself. While overall I am sure he was a good man he did have his faults.

"The Prophet accomplished all this through the strength of his character and personal example;"
4newmuslims.org/prophet.htm
The Haddiths though not perfect, are second to the Koran for sources of instruction for Muslims

The hadith are of no religious authority to me and many other Muslims. They may be of historical interest as far as the effect they had on Muslim societal development but it is wrong to say one must follow them regardless if most so-called Muslims do.

Some might say that the Haddiths are not perfect, but that’s only when compared with the Koran… "The point is not that Hadith is an unreliable source of information. On the contrary, Hadith lacks the level of reliability which is entailed in the basic sources of the Shari`ah. In other words, it is only when compared to the Qur’an and the Sunnah that Hadith seems wanting in reliability. Nevertheless, if one were to compare Hadith with, for instance, sources of other histories, it would easily surpass the reliability of the sources of other histories on all accounts. This is only due to the strenuous work done by the scholars of Hadith in this field of study."

There have been plenty of criticisms written about the reliability of the hadith. These people you qoute do not speak for me.

understanding-islam.org/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=319&sscatid=69
As to the PoWs, this is a specific incident. First there’s however there’s a general Koranic calling for people to be killed
47.4 So, when you meet (in fight Jihad in Allah’s Cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allah to continue in carrying out Jihad against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allah’s Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the Way of Allah, He will never let their deeds be lost,

The infidels who are killed are killed in fighting. No where in this passage does it say that the POWs are to be killed.

rd.**