A new Catholic (married) woman with a question about headcovering?

[whatischarity]

Superficial? (I bolded the word in your post) Now, was that a kind choice of words? It seems very condescending to refer to a time-honoured spiritual discipline employed by faithful people the world over as ‘superficial’. And posting this question in the Traditional Catholicism forum was exactly what I should have done, considering it is a tradition (with a little ‘t’) that has fairly recently fallen out of favor with most of the U.S. Catholics, except for those who find that they gravitate toward aspects of Traditional Catholicism.
Whatischarity, I would ask that you use more charitable language here.

Your original post states that you are a new Catholic. I just found it peculiar that a new Catholic would focus on the incidental topic of headcovering for women when there are so many apsects of Catholicism touching on faith and morals and the sacraments and the liturgy etc.

 

[PatriceA]

Your original post states that you are a new Catholic. I just found it peculiar that a new Catholic would focus on the incidental topic of headcovering for women when there are so many apsects of Catholicism touching on faith and morals and the sacraments and the liturgy etc.

OP, I appreciate you posting about this topic. I was just thinking about it myself today and I don’t find it peculiar at all. Its definitely not incidental, but IMO directly tied into wanting to deepen one’s faith and participation in the sacraments and the liturgy. I think the women that are already headcovering have purposely put a lot of thought and prayer into their decision and I respect and admire that.

 

[Lazarette]

whatischarity, I post-stalked you and now have a better idea where you’re coming from.

You’re both right. You and the OP (original poster) are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum. For some women, veiling deepens their prayer life. I’m not one of them, but I understand where they’re coming from.

You are perhaps similar to me where the externals were used in a way that did not represent how the Church wants them used.

I think it’s simply that you and the OP are coming from different experiences.

 

[mommamaree]

Here I am quoting Lazarette, but I am actually addressing Whatischarity. Confusing I know, but I hope to make a good point here…

whatischarity, I post-stalked you and now have a better idea where you’re coming from.

You’re both right. You and the OP (original poster) are coming from opposite ends of the spectrum. For some women, veiling deepens their prayer life. I’m not one of them, but I understand where they’re coming from.

You are perhaps similar to me where the externals were used in a way that did not represent how the Church wants them used.

I think it’s simply that you and the OP are coming from different experiences.

I admit it Whatischarity, I post-stalked you, too! I didn’t understand why you would drop a short post like that and then take off. I wondered if you were a troll.
But I was pleasantly surprised by all your posts to other threads that I read, and it gave me a chance to understand your perspective. I especially liked your post where you admitted that you tend to pre-judge people’s motives based upon externals, because suddenly it all clicked for me.
My motives certainly are not superficial, even if some people might believe so based upon the notion that some flimsy piece of fabric could deepen one’s prayer life. Indeed, so many of our spiritual practices can look downright ridiculous to the unitiatied. Why do Catholics light votive candles, as an example. What possible good could come from that with respect to prayer? Or prayer itself for that matter? What good is that?
See what I mean? To those who are initiated (i.e. Catholics) these practices have deep meaning that go far beyond the externals. It is a way of involving our whole being in our faith in God. We are physical creatures, too, not just spiritual, and sacramentals and spiritual disciplines/practices aid us in practicing our faith. Just like we cross ourselves and fold our hands in prayer, some women choose to cover their own glory (a woman’s hair is her crowning glory) in order to remind themselves that the beauty and glory of God is greater. There may be other wonderful and good reasons for veiling, but this is one that resonates with me.

 

[RosaryCrusader]

Covering your head in church is now optional, unless you have an audience with the Pope, when it is an outward sign of respect.

So it’s an ‘outward sign of respect’ for the Pope… but not the King of Kings?

 

[Joannm]

So it’s an ‘outward sign of respect’ for the Pope… but not the King of Kings?

I believe the headcovering for meeting the pope is only in diplomatic situations. My mother in law met the pope and didn’t have her head covered. I also know other women who have had audiences with the pope (not the big Wednesday audience), and didn’t have head covering. Those who receive communion from the pope usually don’t have head coverings. If it was required they would be told they needed to as those receiving from the pope are selected beforehand.

 

[whatischarity]

post-stalked - that is a new term for me! Posting on forums is always a little tricky since so much can not be said in a brief couple of sentences. The previous poster is quite right that I had an extremely pharisaical past and I have tried to mend my ways by realizing it is the intent that is important and not the activity. For instance dying in the name of Christ does not gain any merit at all if the intention is wrong.

If one chooses to cover their head in church out of respect for the Blessed Sacrament then very good, but the act itself is now dated. by that, I mean women in the US used to cover their heads when they went out and it wasn’t just a church thing. Women used to wear only dresses. These are bygone things. if a woman still wanted to wear only dresses in church out of respect for the Blessed Sacrament, then very good. What I perceive as a wile of Satan though is Satan then attempts to entice such a one into thinking that their action made them a better person than others in the pews. This then become a belief that the others in the pews who don’t wear dresses or wear head coverings are somehow below the grade. Belief in the Blessed Sacrament is what is important. Charity toward others is what is important. Forgiving others, being non-judgemental, daily prayer, self-sacrifice, all these internal things that only God can see are what is important.

I admit reading the above does make me sound like a bit of a jerk and the reason is that deep down I am still a pharisaical/judgemental/self-righteous person and Satan knows it and uses my bias to trick me into seeing others as being pharisaical/judgemental/self-righteous when they could indeed be the salt of the earth. Obviously, I need to work on this more!

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

1Cor 11:4-15:

Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered, disgraceth his head. But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered, disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.

For if a woman be not covered, let her be shorn. But if it be a shame to a woman to be shorn or made bald, let her cover her head. The man indeed ought not to cover his head, because he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. For the man was not created for the woman, but the woman for the man. Therefore ought the woman to have a power over her head, because of the angels.

But yet neither is the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, so also is the man by the woman: but all things of God. You yourselves judge: doth it become a woman, to pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you, that a man indeed, if he nourish his hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman nourish her hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering.

A few people will claim that since the Canon in the 1917 Code of Canon Law was not overturned in the 1983 Code, that it remains in force. But this is not really the mind of the Church. In the '50s and '60s, veils got shorter and shorter (doily style) and hats became popular and many women just started ignoring the rules as being outdated.

If you go to a modern-style Catholic parish, you may notice one or two women with a veil or a hat, but it’s rare (mostly older women). If you go to a traditional parish, like mine, you will see that most women and girls wear veils. Although I liked the idea, I was too chicken to wear a veil before I started going to the traditional Mass where it is the norm.

Women wear veils when they get married and nobody questions it. Women wear veils when they go to Church and people look at them funny. But really, your marriage to your husband will end at death, your marriage to Christ is what will last forever. Marriage on earth is but a reflection of the marriage between Christ and the Church. So when you wear a veil to Church, you are always reminded of becoming a bride of Christ (even if you’re not a nun, though I like that when nuns enter the order, they wear wedding dresses, it’s very beautiful). So what we wear is like a little version of that wedding dress, just like the Brown Scapular is a little version of the Carmelite habit.

So it’s not required and you probably won’t hear much about it from modern-style Catholics (unless you start wearing one, then they may comment against it…) but St. Paul says it is good and I trust him… It is an exercise in modesty, humility, bridal theology, and it’s a beautiful practice and it is sad that people stopped wearing it.

 

[mommamaree]

post-stalked - that is a new term for me! Posting on forums is always a little tricky since so much can not be said in a brief couple of sentences. The previous poster is quite right that I had an extremely pharisaical past and I have tried to mend my ways by realizing it is the intent that is important and not the activity. For instance dying in the name of Christ does not gain any merit at all if the intention is wrong.

If one chooses to cover their head in church out of respect for the Blessed Sacrament then very good, but the act itself is now dated. by that, I mean women in the US used to cover their heads when they went out and it wasn’t just a church thing. Women used to wear only dresses. These are bygone things. if a woman still wanted to wear only dresses in church out of respect for the Blessed Sacrament, then very good. What I perceive as a wile of Satan though is Satan then attempts to entice such a one into thinking that their action made them a better person than others in the pews. This then become a belief that the others in the pews who don’t wear dresses or wear head coverings are somehow below the grade. Belief in the Blessed Sacrament is what is important. Charity toward others is what is important. Forgiving others, being non-judgemental, daily prayer, self-sacrifice, all these internal things that only God can see are what is important.

I admit reading the above does make me sound like a bit of a jerk and the reason is that deep down I am still a pharisaical/judgemental/self-righteous person and Satan knows it and uses my bias to trick me into seeing others as being pharisaical/judgemental/self-righteous when they could indeed be the salt of the earth. Obviously, I need to work on this more!

WhatisCharity -
I am so glad to hear back from you here, especially since my post-stalking unearthed what gems of posts you contributed to other people’s threads. I really like what you are saying here, and I will definitely take it to heart. I am still thinking a bit about headcovering, just as an exploration of the topic. I know my husband would not mind me beginning a spiritual discipline for my benefit, but would not want me to get caught up in the political/legalistic arguments. If I asked him in an unguarded moment, I suspect he would rather I not cover, just as he would rather see me in form-fitting clothing instead of form-concealing clothing. Whatever I choose, I intend for that to be between me and God.

 

[HelenRose]

I have never understood why this particular topic causes discord among us. I understand, or at least I think I do, why wearing a scarf or veil is desirable and I understand why others do not want to.

If I get upset at someone who covers her head, it would probably be because I am paying to much attention to someone else’s business and am not attending to my own need to humble myself before God.

If I were covering my head and checking around to see who may or may be offended by this, it would probably be because I am paying to much attention to someone else’s business and am not attending to my own need to humble myself before God.

 

[mommamaree]

I have never understood why this particular topic causes discord among us. I understand, or at least I think I do, why wearing a scarf or veil is desirable and I understand why others do not want to.

If I get upset at someone who covers her head, it would probably be because I am paying to much attention to someone else’s business and am not attending to my own need to humble myself before God.

If I were covering my head and checking around to see who may or may be offended by this, it would probably be because I am paying to much attention to someone else’s business and am not attending to my own need to humble myself before God.

And this is why I will not rush in headlong (forgive the pun) and start wearing headcoverings. If God wants me to adopt a particular spiritual discipline, then He will lay that on my heart in a way that I cannot deny. I have experienced just such convictions in other matters in the past, and so I trust Him to lead me in this matter. I do not, however, want to get involved in debates or piety wars. That would lead all involved away from God because of our own pride, would it not? If I am truly meant to wear a veil, I will have a peace about it, and will not be worried about what others do or do not do.

 

[HelenRose]

And this is why I will not rush in headlong (forgive the pun) and start wearing headcoverings. If God wants me to adopt a particular spiritual discipline, then He will lay that on my heart in a way that I cannot deny. I have experienced just such convictions in other matters in the past, and so I trust Him to lead me in this matter. I do not, however, want to get involved in debates or piety wars. That would lead all involved away from God because of our own pride, would it not? If I am truly meant to wear a veil, I will have a peace about it, and will not be worried about what others do or do not do.

You have exactly expressed what I have tried to figure out and haven’t been able to put into words. I love the idea of wearing a scarf or veil, but I know myself well enough to know that I would be terribly self-conscious and until I - as you so beautifully stated - (‘will have peace about it’) I will continue to pray about it and be grateful that we have the ability to do either.

 

[Jane11]

Wearing a veil is an outward manifestation of obedience. Obedience to God, who is the same yesterday, today and forever and is indicative of our God ordained place on earth. Wearing the veil in church stopped at almost the identical time of the rebellion of women in society as a whole in this country. What does that tell us? It tells us that we are daughters of Eve biologically and therefore prone to rebellion in our nature. Even if women were to look at it from a merely selfish aspect, once you put your veil on it’s like “this is my time with God” and it signals the same to your family. It is a help in concentrating on the sacredness of the Mass. Ladies, it’s a help, not a hindrance!

 

[excubitor]

Covering your head in church is now optional, unless you have an audience with the Pope, when it is an outward sign of respect.

If it is an outward sign of respect to wear it when you have an audience with the Pope, then why is it not an outward sign of respect to wear it when you have an audience with Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist?
The fact is that the sacred tradition and teachings of the church is emphatic that the head covering is required but that in these latter days the bishops, faced with unparallelled disobedience amongst the faithful have turned a blind eye to the practice of not wearing it.

 

[excubitor]

Wearing a veil is an outward manifestation of obedience. Obedience to God, who is the same yesterday, today and forever and is indicative of our God ordained place on earth. Wearing the veil in church stopped at almost the identical time of the rebellion of women in society as a whole in this country. What does that tell us? It tells us that we are daughters of Eve biologically and therefore prone to rebellion in our nature. Even if women were to look at it from a merely selfish aspect, once you put your veil on it’s like “this is my time with God” and it signals the same to your family. It is a help in concentrating on the sacredness of the Mass. Ladies, it’s a help, not a hindrance!

I agree. Someone else said put the veil on your heart before you put the veil on your head. But who is to say that putting the veil on your head will not change the heart and make the woman more compliant and submissive to her husbands, to the priest and to the LORD.

The fact is that feminists (both male and female feminists) are a scourge of the church. They have actively pushed out men from positions of responsibility in the church. Any woman who wears a veil strikes with a weapon more powerful than any word can say against modernism and feminism. They say that the pen is mightier than the sword, well I say that the veil is mightier than the pen. If the women en masse stopped burning their bras and started wearing their veils the entire culture of the church would be restored in a matter of years.

It will happen. The pendulum is already starting to swing. The culture of the church swung almost overnight when the women en masse took off their veils. The day will come, and it is not far off that they will put them back on again en masse and of their own free will. Let’s pray and hasten the day

 

[excubitor]

On the day that the veil is restored in the churches is the day that vocations to the priesthood will increase, vocations to the religious orders will increase, the sense of the sacred will return to our masses, men and women will kneel to receive the Eucharist, gregorian chant and Latin will again be acceptable and desirable in our masses, the confessional will be used regularly once more. I long for those days. It is worthy to suffer persecution even from brothers, sisters and even priests in this short term for the greater good which will come to the church from wearing the veil. To me as a man there is nothing more beautiful than to see a woman in a veil. If I was a young man looking for a wife I would look for a young woman wearing a veil, kneeling in prayer.

I saw such a young woman in church once. She would have been about 14 I suppose. She was in rapturous prayer wearing a veil and kneeling. It was the most beautiful sight I have seen in a long, long time. The impression of what I saw stayed with me for many days and still I remember it. The girl seemed pure to me and very holy and it almost tore at my soul. She reminded me of Mother Mary as a young woman. Is the Holy Spirit not moving me also? Yet I say that the prayers of this young woman were more effective and served the church in those few minutes more than all my prayers for months on end.

Would I have gained the same impression if she had not been wearing the veil. I don’t think so, because I believe that the veil does something in the soul of the woman when she puts it on. Its a very deep and meaningful thing for her to do. I know of women who rage against putting on the veil, scarf or even a hat in church and yet they have no problem wearing a hat in the street. I believe that this raging rebellion that is in the heart of many woman is the very thing that Paul referred to when he commanded that they wear veils “because of the angels”. Women are always prone to step out from the authority of their husbands and the church. And when they do, thinking that they can make themselves masters of their own lives they invariably fall into a vast range of errors and problems and the whole church suffers. Women therefore need to be subject to their husbands and obey them. Husbands also should command their wives and daughters and insist that they wear veils to church. Most men do not have authority in their homes to make such a command. Their wives and children rule them instead of the other way round. Men retreat into their private rooms and watch TV and leave their rebelious families to fend for themselves amongst the wolves.

Its a shocking mess and both men and women alike must work together to restore the veil in the church and restore the proper order in the home and in the church.

 

[Lazarette]

and presto!, prime example posts of why this topic generates so much … um, discussion.

 

[mommamaree]

I believe that this raging rebellion that is in the heart of many woman is the very thing that Paul referred to when he commanded that they wear veils “because of the angels”. Women are always prone to step out from the authority of their husbands and the church. And when they do, thinking that they can make themselves masters of their own lives they invariably fall into a vast range of errors and problems and the whole church suffers. Women therefore need to be subject to their husbands and obey them. Husbands also should command their wives and daughters and insist that they wear veils to church. Most men do not have authority in their homes to make such a command. Their wives and children rule them instead of the other way round. Men retreat into their private rooms and watch TV and leave their rebelious families to fend for themselves amongst the wolves.

Its a shocking mess and both men and women alike must work together to restore the veil in the church and restore the proper order in the home and in the church.

And if a husband has a history of behaving in a Christ-like fashion toward his wife and children, such a ‘command’ might be well-received. Your post sounds rather angry at women, and I think it is unfair to all those faithful Catholic (and non-Catholic Christian) wives who love and respect their husbands. You are right about some men retreating to TV to escape their families, but this comment is not fair to all the faithful Catholic men who avoid doing any such thing. We share a faith, and therefore, hopefully, very similar values and priorities. Your post seems like you are just really angry, first at women for rebelling and then at men at retreating. In the Catholic Church, as a recent convert, I have already seen a world of difference in how men and women treat each other, both within marriage and without. Have a little faith, and don’t assume you know the motives of everyone who does not meet your expectations. With regards to your last statement, I think that is the most truthful and accurate thing you said. I bolded it because I wholeheartedly agree, especially the part about ‘work together’. But I think proper order in the home and the church must come before restoring any cast-aside spiritual discipline that is followed by either sex. As an example, I know that some men have joined E5 men and begun fasting for their wives and families once a week or once a month. I think this practice of the fasting husband is a wonderful counterpoint to the practice of veiling taken up by women. Whenever a husband demonstrates his authority in leadership by example, a wife and children need not fear obedience and even, dare I say it, enthusiasm, for where the husband desires to lead.

 

[excubitor]

And if a husband has a history of behaving in a Christ-like fashion toward his wife and children, such a ‘command’ might be well-received. Your post sounds rather angry at women, and I think it is unfair to all those faithful Catholic (and non-Catholic Christian) wives who love and respect their husbands.

No its not. I’m not talking to them. They should feel approved when they read my post. Besides the woman should obey her husband as to the Lord. This command does not depend on whether he has a history of behaving Christ like. Nor should the command of the apostle Paul be poorly received by women because their husbands are not behaving well.

You are right about some men retreating to TV to escape their families, but this comment is not fair to all the faithful Catholic men who avoid doing any such thing.

Faithful men should feel approved by what I say. I am not talking to them. I am talking to lily livered weak men who buck their ordained duty to command and rule their wives and families.

We share a faith, and therefore, hopefully, very similar values and priorities. Your post seems like you are just really angry, first at women for rebelling and then at men at retreating.

Yes that’s right. Obviously I am communicating well. I am angry with the disintegration of the family within the Catholic church and will make no apologies for that. I am not just angry with women and men in the church but also with the corrupting influence of this wicked world.

In the Catholic Church, as a recent convert, I have already seen a world of difference in how men and women treat each other, both within marriage and without. Have a little faith, and don’t assume you know the motives of everyone who does not meet your expectations.

Please have a little faith in me that I do have faith in the Catholic church. I deliberately mentioned my expectation that the trend within the church is swinging back to more traditional family values.

With regards to your last statement, I think that is the most truthful and accurate thing you said. I bolded it because I wholeheartedly agree, especially the part about ‘work together’. But I think proper order in the home and the church must come before restoring any cast-aside spiritual discipline that is followed by either sex. As an example, I know that some men have joined E5 men and begun fasting for their wives and families once a week or once a month. I think this practice of the fasting husband is a wonderful counterpoint to the practice of veiling taken up by women. Whenever a husband demonstrates his authority in leadership by example, a wife and children need not fear obedience and even, dare I say it, enthusiasm, for where the husband desires to lead.

Agreed. I fully support this initiative. I tried to make the point that the veiling of women was not just the responsibility of women but also of men. I am glad that you have noticed that. However I think you are underestimating the spiritual power of wearing the veil. You are saying change the heart first and then restore spiritual discipline of veiling. But you are missing the point. Wearing the veil CHANGES the heart, just like fasting does.

 

[Lazarette]

Besides the woman should obey her husband as to the Lord. This command does not depend on whether he has a history of behaving Christ like
There were far too many occasions of domestic violence rationalized by that view.

*Nor should the command of the apostle Paul *
Paul was speaking to a local situation and the Church kept it until the Church abrogated it. If your interested, tomorrow (no time tonight) I’ll find a link to a canon lawyer’s discussion why the abrogation of the 1917 Code of Canon Law means that wearing a headcovering is not required.

men who buck their ordained duty to command and rule their wives and families.
There is no "ordained duty to rule and command wives and families. Ephesians 5:25 says that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church and handed himself over for her. “Rule and command” is inconsistent with “love and handed himself over for.”

“But you are missing the point. Wearing the veil CHANGES the heart, just like fasting does.”
For some women, yes God has perhaps chosen to work that way. But not ALL women. The Church in her wisdom abrogated that requirement. Nor is God limited to work solely through a headcovering.