A new Catholic (married) woman with a question about headcovering?

[mommamaree]

No its not. I’m not talking to them. They should feel approved when they read my post. Besides the woman should obey her husband as to the Lord.
(1)This command does not depend on whether he has a history of behaving Christ like. Nor should the command of the apostle Paul be poorly received by women because their husbands are not behaving well.

(2)Faithful men should feel approved by what I say. I am not talking to them. I am talking to lily livered weak men who buck their ordained duty to command and rule their wives and families.

Yes that’s right. Obviously I am communicating well. I am angry with the disintegration of the family within the Catholic church and will make no apologies for that. I am not just angry with women and men in the church but also with the corrupting influence of this wicked world.

Please have a little faith in me that I do have faith in the Catholic church. I deliberately mentioned my expectation that the trend within the church is swinging back to more traditional family values.

Agreed. I fully support this initiative. I tried to make the point that the veiling of women was not just the responsibility of women but also of men. I am glad that you have noticed that. However I think you are underestimating the spiritual power of wearing the veil.

(3)You are saying change the heart first and then restore spiritual discipline of veiling. But you are missing the point. Wearing the veil CHANGES the heart, just like fasting does.

To point #1:
I didn’t say that it depends upon the husband behaving in a Christ-like fashion. I just find that so many people focus upon the need for women to be obedient (and it is part of a woman’s vows) but they very easily overlook the need for the husband to love his wife as Christ loved the Church, i.e. laying down his ‘life’ for her (which is part of the husband’s vows). Also, if the husband asks the wife to do anything she knows to be wrong, or if it would force her to go against her conscience (assuming she has a well-formed conscience), then she most certainly would be right in NOT obeying that request. So, it is imperative that the husband represents Christ to his family, in order to gain the enthusiasm and trust of his wife and children.

To point #2:
Here you are being rude and insulting. Please use more charitable language. Many men do not take such pleasure in behaving in an imperial fashion toward his loved ones, whom he is charged with protecting and providing for. Many men also do not want their wives to be silent and meek, but enjoy having a woman who is willing to share an opinion, to challenge him to grow and succeed, and to be in a loving partnership. The teachings of the Catholic Church, as laid out in the Catechism and in the wedding ceremony, and in a host of other places, has encouraged a husband and wife to view each other as equal in dignity and complementary in roles. Women are not the inferiors to their husbands, that not biblical nor Catholic.

To point #3:
I never said that at all. I am not underestimating the power of anything. I am the person who started this whole thread to learn about veiling from people who actually support this practice.

I must ask why you decided to come here and be insulting? Why would you believe that your anger would encourage anybody to adopt a spiritual discipline? If you would like to remain in the discussion, let’s keep it civil (might I even ask for genuine kindness and compassion?), and let’s keep it on topic. This thread was started for the purposes of learning about resources where I might learn about the Church’s teachings regarding veiling. I am a new Catholic. I love my new Church. I want to learn how to better love Jesus, and my husband and family. Your hostility is only going to block the good efforts of people who truly wish to support and inform one another.

 

[DarkNight]

I truly can not understand why people make such a big issue out this.
If you want to wear a veil - then wear one.
Worrying that others will think you are acting “holier than thou” is just an excuse for not wearing one. Unless of course you are wearing it to show you are “holier that thou” in which case it would be a good reason not to wear it.

I’ve come to the realization that we spend much to much time worrying about how others are going to view us. So much so that we stagnate. And in the end, we never do realize how others see us. So why not do what you feel is the right thing?

I understand the fear of doing something new & different.
But it will remain new & different until you do it. Once you do, then you will begin to know if it is actually right for you.

Personally, I go to mass to speak with God and rarely notice what others are wearing.

Go with Love, Go with God

 

[dixieagle]

I know of women who rage against putting on the veil, scarf or even a hat in church and yet they have no problem wearing a hat in the street. I believe that this raging rebellion that is in the heart of many woman is the very thing that Paul referred to when he commanded that they wear veils “because of the angels”.

“Rage”? I hardly think so. I simply choose to agree with the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, as stated in Inter Insigniores: “But it must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on their head (1 Cor 11:2-16); such requirements no longer have a normative value.”

If someone finds value in the practice, and it brings her closer to God - wonderful!

Women are always prone to step out from the authority of their husbands and the church. And when they do, thinking that they can make themselves masters of their own lives they invariably fall into a vast range of errors and problems and the whole church suffers. Women therefore need to be subject to their husbands and obey them. Husbands also should command their wives and daughters and insist that they wear veils to church. Most men do not have authority in their homes to make such a command. Their wives and children rule them instead of the other way round. Men retreat into their private rooms and watch TV and leave their rebelious families to fend for themselves amongst the wolves.

“Command their wives and daughters”? Yikes!!!

 

[dixieagle]

Faithful men should feel approved by what I say. I am not talking to them. I am talking to lily livered weak men who buck their ordained duty to command and rule their wives and families.

(bolding mine)

If you think that this is what Christian men should be doing, I think you are seriously misinformed. Remember that part about “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church…”?

 

[excubitor]

(bolding mine)

If you think that this is what Christian men should be doing, I think you are seriously misinformed. Remember that part about “Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church…”?

My, look how much the feminists have gotten a hold on the church and turned traditional values upside down. OK. You think I might be seriously misinformed do you? Then here is something from Augustine.

“Nor can it be doubted, that it is more consonant with the order of nature that men should bear rule over women, than women over men. It is with this principle in view that the apostle says, ‘The head of the woman is the man;’ and, ‘Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands.’ So also the Apostle Peter writes: ‘Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.’” Augustine, On Marriage and Concupiscence, Bk 1, Ch 10 (A.D. 419-420).

Here is a whole stack of scriptures and citations from early church fathers which prove my point. scripturecatholic.com/husband_headship.html from John Salza. Do I really care what feminists think or even what people who are infected by feminism think? Of course not. Sadly however it is difficult, very difficult to exercise my God-given authority in the home, when all of society tells me that I am very seriously informed and even my brothers and sisters in the church offer me no support.

Now do I think that my God-given duty as head of the family to command and rule my wife
means that i can order her about like a tin pot dictator and turn her into an abused slave. No of course not, because that would conflict with other instructions to love my wife.

Now do any of us think that Christ the LORD has authority to command and rule us? If you do then you must also think that husbands have the authority to command rule over his wife, because Jesus said 1 Cor. 11:3 – “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.”

Therefore as Christian men we must rule our wives with love and care, even as Christ who is our head rules us with love and care.

 

[Lazarette]

excubitor, I post-stalked you and discovered that yesterday you said you’re new in the Church. If you’re new in the Church, you might want to cultivate listening more and restrain your assumption that others are wrong.

I stand by my earlier comment.

 

[dixieagle]

My, look how much the feminists have gotten a hold on the church and turned traditional values upside down. OK. You think I might be seriously misinformed do you? Then here is something from Augustine.

“Nor can it be doubted, that it is more consonant with the order of nature that men should bear rule over women, than women over men. It is with this principle in view that the apostle says, ‘The head of the woman is the man;’ and, ‘Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands.’ So also the Apostle Peter writes: ‘Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.’” Augustine, On Marriage and Concupiscence, Bk 1, Ch 10 (A.D. 419-420).

Here is a whole stack of scriptures and citations from early church fathers which prove my point. scripturecatholic.com/husband_headship.html from John Salza. Do I really care what feminists think or even what people who are infected by feminism think? Of course not. Sadly however it is difficult, very difficult to exercise my God-given authority in the home, when all of society tells me that I am very seriously informed and even my brothers and sisters in the church offer me no support.

Now do I think that my God-given duty as head of the family to command and rule my wife
means that i can order her about like a tin pot dictator and turn her into an abused slave. No of course not, because that would conflict with other instructions to love my wife.

Now do any of us think that Christ the LORD has authority to command and rule us? If you do then you must also think that husbands have the authority to command rule over his wife, because Jesus said 1 Cor. 11:3 – “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.”

Therefore as Christian men we must rule our wives with love and care, even as Christ who is our head rules us with love and care.

Perhaps, then, you might choose your words with more “love and care”.

You might also want to study Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem (On the Dignity of Women) which gives an eloquent explanation of the relationship between spouses and shows that the Church’s view of that relationship is somewhat different from what your posts suggest. A brief quote from the letter: “However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ”, and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviour and customs.”
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

 

[BettyM]

Can those who support headcoverings for women give me some direction on this topic? If I was informed that the Church in Her wisdom urged headcoverings for women, I would be obedient to its authority. I trust the leading of the Church, but I also see that certain topics, like headcoverings, are fraught with conflict. I have seen only one older lady in our parish wear beautiful hats to Mass every week, but I have never seen anyone else wearing any kind of headcovering. I am very interested in seeing references to Church documents that I could use to learn what the Magisterium or Canon Law says (whichever type of authority applies here, and I am still so ignorant about these things).
My husband and I have talked about this issue several times in the past few months as we were entering the Catholic Church. He and I are in agreement that if the Church teaches that women should be covered, then it would be appropriate to do so. But when there is no precedent for such a thing, and our RCIA class never covered it, I get very confused when I see threads here at CAF asserting that the Church never withdrew its ‘rules’ that women wear headcoverings.
Anyway, I am a baby Catholic and still trying to figure all of this out, so please be kind. I just want to figure out what the real teaching or rules of the Church are, because I trust the Church to accurately lead us to live the life that is pleasing to God. But there is so much to learn and understand that I feel like I don’t know where to begin!

There are alot of pages on this post that I don’t want to go through but I just thought I would try to help with your question.
I rarely see anyone wear a veil at church but I do sometimes see headcoverings such as hats or scarves.
I, myself, have felt a need to cover my head at mass but do not wear a veil. Others may not agree that this is a headcovering but I wear cloth or large headbands. I feel as women we should cover our heads when we are praying at mass. I wish the veil was something women still wore but it’s not but I want something on my head when I go to mass because I feel it is most respectful to the fact that the Mass is a sacrifice and we are honoring what Jesus did for us. The Church doesn’t seem to require headcoverings anymore but maybe God is calling you to wear something just as I think He is calling alot of other women to the same thing.

Also, I should say it doesn’t mean women who don’t wear headcoverings are any less holy.
This is just my choice.

 

[HelenRose]

Perhaps, then, you might choose your words with more “love and care”.

You might also want to study Pope John Paul II’s Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem (On the Dignity of Women) which gives an eloquent explanation of the relationship between spouses and shows that the Church’s view of that relationship is somewhat different from what your posts suggest. A brief quote from the letter: “However, the awareness that in marriage there is mutual “subjection of the spouses out of reverence for Christ”, and not just that of the wife to the husband, must gradually establish itself in hearts, consciences, behaviour and customs.”
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_15081988_mulieris-dignitatem_en.html

A beautiful quote.

Another word that needs to be added in this discussion is “humility.”

A man who is humble in the presence of Christ would probably not be so inclined to use the word “rule” with such purpose to prove his point.

Fortunately, as in all matters regarding women. Our first and foremost love must belong to Christ. With Him as our true “ruler” we need not be ruled by men who would use the scripture to control us. We, as with the Blessed Virgin Mary, are not bound by the power of men over us. Think about it. When the angel came to Mary to ask her to be the Mother of God, she did not ask permission from either her father, or if she had a brother, her brother nor did she discuss this with Joseph. Her commitment was with God. The leadership of Joseph as Mary’s husband was one of great strength, great love, great compassion with courageous and great humility.

We only need to look toward Saint Joseph to find the definition of what it means to be the “head” of a household. This message is one of the Church’s greatest gifts to husbands and wives

A woman’s first decision in choosing a husband is to make sure that this is a man worthy of leadership in the home.

(I am not a feminist. I chose well a man who is the leader of my home. He would never use the word “rule” - or else)

 

[BettyM]

My, look how much the feminists have gotten a hold on the church and turned traditional values upside down. OK. You think I might be seriously misinformed do you? Then here is something from Augustine.

“Nor can it be doubted, that it is more consonant with the order of nature that men should bear rule over women, than women over men. It is with this principle in view that the apostle says, ‘The head of the woman is the man;’ and, ‘Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands.’ So also the Apostle Peter writes: ‘Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord.’” Augustine, On Marriage and Concupiscence, Bk 1, Ch 10 (A.D. 419-420).

Here is a whole stack of scriptures and citations from early church fathers which prove my point. scripturecatholic.com/husband_headship.html from John Salza. Do I really care what feminists think or even what people who are infected by feminism think? Of course not. Sadly however it is difficult, very difficult to exercise my God-given authority in the home, when all of society tells me that I am very seriously informed and even my brothers and sisters in the church offer me no support.

Now do I think that my God-given duty as head of the family to command and rule my wife
means that i can order her about like a tin pot dictator and turn her into an abused slave. No of course not, because that would conflict with other instructions to love my wife.

Now do any of us think that Christ the LORD has authority to command and rule us? If you do then you must also think that husbands have the authority to command rule over his wife, because Jesus said 1 Cor. 11:3 – “But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.”

Therefore as Christian men we must rule our wives with love and care, even as Christ who is our head rules us with love and care.

I think this is great. Men should lovingly lead their wives. I agree. Someone has to be the head of the family. Women have great dignity, men have great dignity but the husband is the head of the family. It doesn’t take anything away from a woman but it is the wife fullfilling her role by lovingly put her husband as head. She, of course, is part of decisions and leading but many great arguments will come if their isn’t someone in charge.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I’m stepping into this thread and going on a tangent so please forgive me.

Growing up, as a non-Catholic (but a very long time ago) I would never have dreamed of going into a Catholic parish (including St. Peter’s in Rome, which I was blessed to have the opportunity to see at the age of 15) without a covering on my head.

In the intervening years the world changed, and, more recently, when I joined the Catholic faith myself, there was no mention of such things, except from my very conservative Catholic cousin who, had she had enough notice of my confirmation, would have sent me a veil to wear as part of the ceremony.

I’m an unmarried woman. I was once married but that marriage has been held to be null by an office of the church.

Where does all this leave me? Sorry to sound so appallingly ignorant, but there are things that I just don’t know.

 

[floresco]

I noticed a couple of comments earlier in the thread about feelings of self-consciousness. Women who feel drawn to the practice of head-covering but feel self-conscious in a mantilla, might feel less so in a hat, scarf or beret. I have seen quite a few comments from women who felt this way. There has never been any requirement that one’s head-covering be a mantilla, so this is a perfectly acceptable way to follow this practice.

 

[mommamaree]

I’m stepping into this thread and going on a tangent so please forgive me.

Growing up, as a non-Catholic (but a very long time ago) I would never have dreamed of going into a Catholic parish (including St. Peter’s in Rome, which I was blessed to have the opportunity to see at the age of 15) without a covering on my head.

In the intervening years the world changed, and, more recently, when I joined the Catholic faith myself, there was no mention of such things, except from my very conservative Catholic cousin who, had she had enough notice of my confirmation, would have sent me a veil to wear as part of the ceremony.

I’m an unmarried woman. I was once married but that marriage has been held to be null by an office of the church.

Where does all this leave me? Sorry to sound so appallingly ignorant, but there are things that I just don’t know.

I am a fellow convert, too! I don’t know if I can answer your question, but I wanted to welcome you to the thread. Actually, I don’t really understand what you are trying to ask. Regarding your mention of your marital status, are you asking that because of my mention in the title of the thread that I am a married woman? If that is the reason, I will just clarify that when I mentioned my marital status, I was also implying that my husband and I would be discussing anything I learn here, and I was also curious about if there is a difference in veil color or headcovering styles for married/unmarried women. I am just as ignorant as you claim to be, see?!
I do know that there is a new group here at CA for women who wear headcoverings in church. I think they would be a wonderful group to get more information about the actual practice of headcovering.

 

[MelanieAnne]

I am a fellow convert, too! I don’t know if I can answer your question, but I wanted to welcome you to the thread. Actually, I don’t really understand what you are trying to ask. Regarding your mention of your marital status, are you asking that because of my mention in the title of the thread that I am a married woman? If that is the reason, I will just clarify that when I mentioned my marital status, I was also implying that my husband and I would be discussing anything I learn here, and I was also curious about if there is a difference in veil color or headcovering styles for married/unmarried women. I am just as ignorant as you claim to be, see?!
I do know that there is a new group here at CA for women who wear headcoverings in church. I think they would be a wonderful group to get more information about the actual practice of headcovering.

I agree. Perhaps someone will help us!

 

[crazzeto]

Here try this, Douay Rheims Bible; 1 Corinthians 11:1-15. If I find other verses I’ll post them.
My wife never enters a Catholic church unless she covers her head. Its a very traditional act of reverence. Even when we go to a strange Novus Ordo church she covers. And yes we kneel alot.

As someone mentioned before, there is no church law that either requires or prevents the covering of the head. Its a trad thing.

Here are those verses in four different bibles, Douay, ISV, KJV-1611, Gods Word

1 Be ye followers of me, as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that in all things you are mindful of me and keep my ordinances as I have delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know that the head of every man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man: and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying with his head covered disgraceth his head.
5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head not covered disgraceth her head: for it is all one as if she were shaven.

1 Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.
2 I praise you for remembering me in everything and for carefully following the traditions, just as I passed them on to you.
3 Now I want you to realize that Christ is the head of every man, and man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of Christ.
4 Every man who prays or prophesies with something on his head dishonors his head,
5 and every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, which is the same as having her head shaved.

1 Be yee followers of mee, euen as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I prayse you, brethren, that you remember me in all things, and keepe the ordinances, as I deliuered them to you.
3 But I would haue you knowe, that the head of euery man is Christ: and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.
4 Euery man praying or prophecying, hauing his head couered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But euery woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head vncouered, dishonoureth her head: for that is euen all one as if she were shauen.

1 Imitate me as I imitate Christ.
2 I praise you for always thinking about me and for carefully following the traditions that I handed down to you.
3 However, I want you to realize that Christ has authority over every man, a husband has authority over his wife, and God has authority over Christ.
4 Every man who covers his head when he prays or speaks what God has revealed dishonors the one who has authority over him.
5 Every woman who prays or speaks what God has revealed and has her head uncovered while she speaks dishonors the one who has authority over her. She is like the woman who has her head shaved.

 

[Miserys_Fence]

A REAL “feminist” believes that a woman’s place is wherever she chooses, in free will, to be. CHOOSING to be a stay home mom and homemaker is no less important than CHOOSING to be a CEO–just as being called to the married life is no less important than being called to the religious life. Every individual, male or female, is called to his or her own role, and should mind to it rather than sniping at others whose callings are different. It would be a pretty boring (not to mention dysfunctional) world if we were all called to the same Earthly duties.

The issue is that, in earlier times, women did not get to choose; her roles were limited and imposed upon her, regardless of her talents and desires.

I, for one–as a single mom–am darn glad that these days are behind us. I’m going to have 2 children in college this fall, and I’m darn glad I earn as much as any man in my role at work.

I’m sure there are plenty of men who would love to return to the olden days of female submissiveness. They are called “control freaks” up to the point where they try to control me. Then they’re called “greasy spot on the sidewalk.”

Miz

 

[mommamaree]

I’m sure there are plenty of men who would love to return to the olden days of female submissiveness. They are called “control freaks” up to the point where they try to control me. Then they’re called “greasy spot on the sidewalk.”

Miz

Thanks for the laugh!

 

[doanli]

Scarves are very much in fashion now, and can cover your head.

I say this because one of the local Catholic stores were selling mantillas (that cover the entire head) for $35, which is a little steep in price for me.

 

[mommamaree]

Scarves are very much in fashion now, and can cover your head.

I say this because one of the local Catholic stores were selling mantillas (that cover the entire head) for $35, which is a little steep in price for me.

Hello fellow Carolinian! I hadn’t seen anyone else on CAF that is from SC. Good to meetcha!

 

[excubitor]

excubitor, I post-stalked you and discovered that yesterday you said you’re new in the Church. If you’re new in the Church, you might want to cultivate listening more and restrain your assumption that others are wrong.

I stand by my earlier comment.

Well at least you are honest enough to admit that you are a stalker. I might be new in the church, but I have spent the last 5 years and thousands of hours of research into church history and the early church fathers and the councils of the church in order to convert from protestantism to the catholic church. I don’t need to be falsely humble by not saying that I know a great deal more than the average cradle catholic on this and most other issues of the faith.

Clearly I know a great deal more than you because you have not been able to provide a single cogent argument to show where I am wrong in what I say. I have quoted scriptures and Augustine. I have given a link to a weighty page of scripture and Early Church father citations.

Besides it doesn’t even matter what I know or don’t know if I am quoting the scriptures and their interpretations by patristic fathers. Don’t argue with me. Argue with the patristic fathers and the scriptures and then go and inquire of God why he put all this stuff into the scriptures and lead the apostolic church to teach it for all these centuries. If you need some help, there are plenty of quotes that you can take from Germaine Greer and the feminist movement to back up your position. Most of them date from the 1960’s so your tradition goes for about 40 years whereas the tradition that I espouse goes for longer than 2000 years when you consider that the Jewish women also veiled going back through the vast ages. No doubt Sarah veiled as well when she called her husband Abraham, “Lord”. So that is a tradition of probably 4000 years altogether compared to your tradition of 40 years.

Errr. Now let me think which tradition shall I assume is correct? The one started by Sarah and perpetuated for 4000 years, or the one started 40 or so years ago by the feminist movement as a deliberate statement that they will no longer submit to the authority of their husbands. Honestly we are talking about the difference between Vashti and Esther here.