A New Jersey man gets seven years for being a responsible gun owner!

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Sir Knight, in light of what you just wrote right here, I am going to have to stop arguing any further with you.
As you wish.
You just demonstrated blatant scientific ignorance and an inaptitude to understand empirical studies and their results. I for one do not know how to approach a man who does not understand Reason.
And I do not know how to approach a man who ignores the realities of what actually happens and instead decides to hold on to “scientific studies” which have no basis in reality.

Myth: Handguns are 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a criminal

Fact: Of the 43 deaths reported in this flawed study, 37 (86%) were suicides. Other deaths involved criminal activity between the family members (drug deals gone bad).

Fact: Of the remaining deaths, the deceased family members include felons, drug dealers, violent spouses committing assault, and other criminals.

Fact: Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. This means you are much more likely to prevent a crime without bloodshed than hurt a family member.
 
I just had to reply to this.

The theological interpretation I gave you the link was of a Jesuits priests. You are telling me that YOUR interpretation is in keeping with the Church?
Jesuit priests are not assured infallibility. That is reserved for the Vatican alone. And what does the Vatican say about this point? That we have not only a right but a duty to defense with arms.
Please, get off your gun loving pedestal and open up your eyes. You are behaving in a way worse than some Atheist I’ve met. At least they understand the results of an empirical study 🤷
Please get off of your gun hating pedestal and open your eyes to scripture and Church teaching. You are behaving in a way worse than some Atheist I’ve met. At least they do not claim to be in keeping with Church teaching.
 
As I said to you once, I follow the Catholic Church’s interpretations. Not personal interpretation like you 🙂
Oh give me a break. Your backwards bastardization of teachings is getting really old. Plus, you clearly demonstrate you know very little academic research.
 
As you wish.

And I do not know how to approach a man who ignores the realities of what actually happens and instead decides to hold on to “scientific studies” which have no basis in reality.

Myth: Handguns are 43 times more likely to kill a family member than a criminal

Fact: Of the 43 deaths reported in this flawed study, 37 (86%) were suicides. Other deaths involved criminal activity between the family members (drug deals gone bad).

Fact: Of the remaining deaths, the deceased family members include felons, drug dealers, violent spouses committing assault, and other criminals.

Fact: Only 0.1% (1 in a thousand) of the defensive uses of guns results in the death of the predator. This means you are much more likely to prevent a crime without bloodshed than hurt a family member.
Every one dies Sir Knight. What is your point? I am starting to doubt your competency at logic as well.
 
Jesuit priests are not assured infallibility. That is reserved for the Vatican alone. And what does the Vatican say about this point? That we have not only a right but a duty to defense with arms.
Yea, even that was quoted out of context without reading what was written right below the paragraph you quoted.

Seriously, please take it from me. YOU ARE VERY SIMILAR TO AN ATHEIST. The only difference is that atheist believe in No god, and you believe in HAVING GUNS.:rolleyes:

Oh why do I start arguments with people like you :banghead:

Now I am going to unsubscribe from this thread and have my self an intelligent discussion elsewhere!! :coffeeread:

God Help you and your Gun loving friends!
 
Every one dies Sir Knight. What is your point?
The point is that we are to preserve life. That is official church teaching. The exact sections of the CCC were already quoted for you in this thread.
I am starting to doubt your competency at logic as well.
I have no doubt regarding your lack of competency at logic. Others see it clearly as well …
Oh give me a break. Your backwards bastardization of teachings is getting really old. Plus, you clearly demonstrate you know very little academic research.
 
Yea, even that was quoted out of context without reading what was written right below the paragraph you quoted.
What appears in the paragraph afterwards still does not change what was quoted. You obviously disagree so show me which statements negate the statements that I quoted and how.
Seriously, please take it from me. YOU ARE VERY SIMILAR TO AN ATHEIST. The only difference is that atheist believe in No god, and you believe in HAVING GUNS.:rolleyes:
That made no sense whatsoever. Seriously, take it from me. YOU ARE VERY SIMILAR TO AN ATHEIST. The only difference is that atheist believe in No god, and you believe in your own version of what the Church teaches regardless of what the actual teachings are.
Oh why do I start arguments with people like you :banghead:
Oh, I don’t know. A few posts back you said that you were bowing out of this discussion …

I am going to have to stop arguing any further with you.
… yet you continue to make posts to me clearly showing that your words can not be believed.
Now I am going to unsubscribe from this thread and have my self an intelligent discussion elsewhere!! :coffeeread:
And why should I believe you this time?
 
OK, after looking at a;; of the studies presented here, I have to say: they have simply made the case for trying to boycott guns even worse. The studies for gun control say that there is a higher, even twice the risk of home violence and death. However, the evidence against gun control specifies a HUGE increase in crime. I will add a little of my own evidence into the mix:
nmha.org/go/state-ranking
Total suicides, with data from 2002-2006: 32,439
www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/violent_crime/index.html
At the time of that survey, here are the statistics for deaths by violent crime: About 1,440,000! The rate does fall, but only by around 150,000. That’s not much in the scheme of this data. Neither is the suicide rate. And the examples of both switzerland and the town brought up by one of the posters here, show that there actualy may be a really significant drop in violent crime if gun control laws become less strict. I am not trivializing suicide and home shootings, but in terms of the statistics, we should strive for the largest reduction in wrongful deaths. Forigive me from making small assumptions, but I believe further data has been brought up already in this thread. I had to skim the psts since my last since I’m running short on time. I will end my case and my participation here, because the better arguments as well as statistics are quite clear to me, and it seems this discussion has devolved into who is and isn’t on a pedestal, which is in no way educational. God bless:)
 
vz,
I don’t see how you can draw that conclusion.
God Bless,
Colmcille.
For that to truly be the case, one of two things must be going on here.
So please clarify…

Do you doubt that law abiding citizens can be expected to follow the law?
Do you doubt that criminals can be expected to disregard the law?

I do not see how you can further claim to be dealing with reality.

It is a reasonable expectation that law abiding citizens will obey the law.
It is also a reasonable expectation that criminals will disregard the law.

We must therefore conclude that draconian gun laws will be followed by the law abidng citizens and disregarded by the criminals.
This will leave the criminals with guns and the law abiding citizens without guns.

Either you are diregarding reality or you are not being honest with us.

I ask you again, how exactly can you expect these draconian laws to keep guns out of the hands of criminals?
How exactly will disarming the law abiding citizens while leaving the criminals with their weaponry do anything but cause harm?

You can claim to not understand the conclusion if you wish, but the logical steps are obvious and reasonable. And I do not believe this claim will be viewed as anything more then either dishonesty or such a leap from reality as to call every word from your mouth into question.
 
2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a** grave duty** for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

Nowhere in the above is the word "gun". You are putting that interpretation on it yourself.
BTW, why in the name of goodness do you carry a gun to Mass?!

What do you think the word ARMS means maybe you can explain what that sentence means to you? Why I carry to Mass I’ve explained it before there is evil in this world; have you ever heard of Church shootings?

Innocent life:
I. RESPECT FOR HUMAN LIFE
The witness of sacred history
2259
In the account of Abel’s murder by his brother Cain,57 Scripture reveals the presence of anger and envy in man, consequences of original sin, from the beginning of human history. Man has become the enemy of his fellow man. God declares the wickedness of this fratricide: “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.”

2260 The covenant between God and mankind is interwoven with reminders of God’s gift of human life and man’s murderous violence:
For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning. . . . Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.

2319 Every human life, from the moment of conception until death, is sacred because the human person has been willed for its own sake in the image and likeness of the living and holy God.

2320 The murder of a human being is gravely contrary to the dignity of the person and the holiness of the Creator.

2321 The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm. **Legitimate defense is a grave duty for whoever is responsible for the lives of others or the common good. **

In today’s world that means bearing firearms for legitimate defense even the Holy Father understands this do you think the Swiss Guards should turn in their guns now?
Well reading though this thread it seems colmcille1 and ddarko have a fear of firearms. I will pray for you both

It’s not a Catholic thing to own guns asking ridicules questions like why you would want to own a gun and turn the other cheek rubbish quoting anti-gun studies that is not based in reality.

My post above no one has answered the question so I will rephrase it:

Should the Holy Father dismiss the Swiss Guards? Who have given oaths to defend the Holy Father with their lives they are trained in all types of firearms including military type assault weapons.

Ok no more Swiss Guards! So what’s the Pope to do when attacked get on his knees and turn the other cheek?

When you see those bodyguards running beside the Pope-mobile if you don’t think they’re armed your living in some fantasy world.

Now if the Holy Father who sits in Peters chair is the Prime Minister of the Holy Catholic Church does not have a problem with firearms around him for self-defense what the heck is the matter with you two?

You two seem to forget that the devil is alive and well in this world and there are people that would soon kill you as they would a fly because they have no value for human life!

Would you two please tell us what is your solution? Ban all firearms by real life data we know that doesn’t work.

Since you two are so enlighten on Catholic teachings than us ignorant low-life gun owning peasants—it’s three in the morning somebody just busted in your front door your wife and kids are in the house what are you going to do; call a cop?

What would you do to stop the threat turn the other cheek?

**WHAT IS YOUR SOLUTION? **

I would love to know this then we can contact the UN and tell them here at CAF we’ve found the solution for world peace.
 
First, I was deeply disturbed by seeing people who consider them selves “Strong Catholics” advocating guns and misinterpreting Scripture the way it was being done on this forum. A quick search on some old posts revealed to me that people like Sir Knight have been using the same recycle arguments. Therefore I felt that it was my moral obligation to Christ to come and at least show the errors. Those with open hearts would no doubt realize the truth in my words and judge for themselves what to do.

A very famous defence used by him frequently is that of the Vatican document citing “Grave obligation for defending ones family” and then saying he can only best do it by owning a gun. Unfortunately, he does not realize that the other aggressor might own a gun just like him and shoot him in the head from a mile away before he even knows whats coming 🤷

So in short, the Vatican does not state HOW TO do this defence of life. So the proper thing to do is to find methods of mutual disarmament. Me having a gun does not help me defend my self against the guy who also owns a gun and is going to sneak up from behind me and shoot me in the head. The sooner someone realizes this, the sooner they should realize that me owning a bigger gun is not the solution.

The second famous defence by people like Sir Knight is that of using Christ’s words to buy a sword. No Pope or theologian would approve of the interpretation they give. It is false. We see Christ clearly state that those who pick up the sword will die by the sword. Now the laughable defence by Sir Knight is that it was because Christ wanted him to be captured since he had to die. The big gaping loop hole in this defence is that if Christ already wanted to get caught like this, why did he ask the Apostles to buy a sword in the first place? 🤷 Once again, this shows the illogical nature of the arguments these people raise.

There is also the concern raised as to what is the other solution than owning a gun. The answer is disarmament. In countries of Europe, the amount of violence compared to the United States is negligible. Not many own guns in these countries like they do in the states. So if the US owns so many guns and still has a higher crime rate than these other countries (even greater than it’s neighbour Canada), then it does not take a graduate degree for one to see that owning a Gun is not solving any problem. On the contrary, it appears that owning a gun is more detrimental to family happiness. This really makes one wonder if they even follow the very document of the Vatican they quote. If they really do care about the safety of their family, given the evidence from other countries, it appears that owning a Gun does not help anyway.

Finally, these people seem to be so blinded by the Gun, that they do not see the clear Catholic teachings. The following is the United States Catholic Bishops view on Gun control.

nccbuscc.org/sdwp/national/criminal/handguns.shtml

usccb.org/sdwp/national/criminal/gunsample.shtml

Please take the time to read them and decide for yourself which one you would follow. The Gun? Or the church of God?

Just to highlight my position, I am not a pacifist. I am all for the Church teaching on Just War doctrine. But once again, I put my church and God first. Not my love for my self, my pride or the Gun.

For anyone getting ready to flame me for this post, please spare your fingers. I won’t be participating in a debate with logically incompetent people and since this thread seems to be full of them, there really is no point for me to reply back. This is the only post I am making and I don’t think I can state anything else more clearly than what I have done here anyway.

God Bless 🙂
 
A very famous defence used by him frequently is that of the Vatican document citing “Grave obligation for defending ones family” and then saying he can only best do it by owning a gun. Unfortunately, he does not realize that the other aggressor might own a gun just like him and shoot him in the head from a mile away before he even knows whats coming 🤷

So in short, the Vatican does not state HOW TO do this defence of life. So the proper thing to do is to find methods of mutual disarmament. Me having a gun does not help me defend my self against the guy who also owns a gun and is going to sneak up from behind me and shoot me in the head. The sooner someone realizes this, the sooner they should realize that me owning a bigger gun is not the solution.
These two paragraphs show you know absolutely zero about firearms and their use in self-defense. You have watched too many movies and possibly acted in too many scenes where the use of firearms is shown as adsurd and/or comical. Head shots are very rare in shootings; most people committing crimes with handguns have very little if no training in how to properly use the gun or have any range time under their belt.
 
A very famous defence used by him frequently is that of the Vatican document citing “Grave obligation for defending ones family” and then saying he can only best do it by owning a gun. Unfortunately, he does not realize that the other aggressor might own a gun just like him and shoot him in the head from a mile away before he even knows whats coming 🤷
And since that would be the case wether or not a gun is owned, your point is irrelevent.
So in short, the Vatican does not state HOW TO do this defence of life. So the proper thing to do is to find methods of mutual disarmament. Me having a gun does not help me defend my self against the guy who also owns a gun and is going to sneak up from behind me and shoot me in the head. The sooner someone realizes this, the sooner they should realize that me owning a bigger gun is not the solution.
If you can come up with a means of disarming the criminals without leaving the public in greater danger, great. Thus far no one has even bothered addressing this.

As to the Vatican not stating how to defend oneself, you would think if guns were not acceptable then that would be mentioned. It is not. And that particular silence is deafening.
 
Me having a gun does not help me defend my self against the guy who also owns a gun and is going to sneak up from behind me and shoot me in the head. The sooner someone realizes this, the sooner they should realize that me owning a bigger gun is not the solution.
100% correct.

At that range a .22 would have enough penetration to solve the situation. 😉

Of course a bigger gun isn’t the solution.

Proper training and a healthy dose of awareness, however, is a possible solution.

Speaking as a martial arts instructor who has had to defend himself in real life situations, I can state from experience that I would have a lot less bumps and bruises…and puncture wounds, if it were legal for law abiding citizens in the UK to carry handguns.

I’d feel a lot safer with that handgun than with all my years of training unarmed.
 
.

nccbuscc.org/sdwp/national/criminal/handguns.shtml

usccb.org/sdwp/national/criminal/gunsample.shtml

For anyone getting ready to flame me for this post, please spare your fingers. I won’t be participating in a debate with **logically incompetent people **and since this thread seems to be full of them, there really is no point for me to reply back. This is the only post I am making and I don’t think I can state anything else more clearly than what I have done here anyway.

God Bless 🙂
FLAME ON—what is it with left leaning people when they start losing a debate they have to attack people personally. Typical liberal response.

These documents are irrelevant there were written prior of the majority of states voted in right to carry where violent crime has gone down since the passage of these laws where citizens have the right to defend themselves . I mean come on quoting FBI stats from 1973 give me a break man.

Also the Bishops have it wrong is some of those paragraphs and what they were suggesting just restricts law abiding citizens. Anyway the second document mainly refers to the first document that was written in 1975!

Now here is a more updated document July 2006

United States Catholic Catechism for Adults No. 29:
Pages 390 & 391
Self-defense against an unjust aggressor is morally permitted. There is also a moral duty for the defense of others by those who are responsible for their lives. Self-defense or the defense of others has the goal of protecting the person or persons threatened.

Once the threat is eliminated, no further action is required. In such situations, the deliberate killing of the aggressor can be permitted only when no other solution is possible (cf. CCC, no. 2265). Any response to aggression must be proportionate to the nature of the threat or the act of aggression.

“The prohibition of murder does not abrogate the right to render an unjust aggressor unable to inflict harm.” (cf. CCC 2261) page 400.


Now by these writings by our good Bishops blows your arguments right out of the lake.

It seems our Untied States Bishops believe just like us ignorant gun owning peasants. They have it right, we have it right. you got it wrong baby.
 
Others have already done an excellent job of rebuking ddarko’s incorrect opinions (thanks everyone) so there is no point is me re-addressing them. I will focus on the parts that were not touched.
The second famous defence by people like Sir Knight is that of using Christ’s words to buy a sword. No Pope or theologian would approve of the interpretation they give.
Are you saying that they will deny scripture? Scripture clearly records Jesus commanding His followers to purchase swords to say otherwise to deny the infallible Word of God.
It is false.
What is false? Luke 22:36-38 is false?
We see Christ clearly state that those who pick up the sword will die by the sword.
Your lack of scriptural knowledge is really sad. To live by the sword refers to bandits and outlaws. Not to those that use a weapon for self defene purposes.
Now the laughable defence by Sir Knight is that it was because Christ wanted him to be captured since he had to die.
Are you saying that Jesus did not have to die? If Peter would have prevented Jesus from being taken into custody, wouldn’t that put a wrinkle in the Divine plan?
The big gaping loop hole in this defence is that if Christ already wanted to get caught like this, why did he ask the Apostles to buy a sword in the first place? 🤷
Because the swords were not for the purpose of defending Jesus who could have called down an entire army of angels to defend Him. The purpose of the swords were for them to protect each other. When Jesus commands them to acquire swords, He reminded them that when He sent them out previously, He commanded that they take nothing with them on the road; this time it was different: they would have to fend for themselves.
Once again, this shows the illogical nature of the arguments these people raise.
Once again, this shows your inability to grasp basic concepts and place the blame on others for your own failure to understand.
There is also the concern raised as to what is the other solution than owning a gun. The answer is disarmament. In countries of Europe, the amount of violence compared to the United States is negligible. Not many own guns in these countries like they do in the states. So if the US owns so many guns and still has a higher crime rate than these other countries (even greater than it’s neighbour Canada), then it does not take a graduate degree for one to see that owning a Gun is not solving any problem. On the contrary, it appears that owning a gun is more detrimental to family happiness. This really makes one wonder if they even follow the very document of the Vatican they quote. If they really do care about the safety of their family, given the evidence from other countries, it appears that owning a Gun does not help anyway.
Myth: Countries with strict gun control have less crime

Fact: Countries with the strictest gun-control laws also tended to have the highest homicide rates.[SOURCE: “Violence, Guns and Drugs: A Cross-Country Analysis”, Jeffery A. Miron, Department of Economics, Boston University.]

Fact: According to the U.N., as of 2005, Scotland was the most violent country in the developed world, with people three times more likely to be assaulted than in America. Violent crime there has doubled over the last 20 years. 3% of Scots had been victims of assault compared with 1.2% in America [SOURCE: “Scotland tops list of world’s most violent countries”, The Times, September 19, 2005]

Fact: “ … the major surveys completed in the past 20 years or more provides no evidence of any relationship between the total number of legally held firearms in society and the rate of armed crime. Nor is there a relationship between the severity of controls imposed in various countries or the mass of bureaucracy involved with many control systems with the apparent ease of access to firearms by criminals and terrorists.” [SOURCE: Colin Greenwood, “Minutes of Evidence”, Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs, January 29, 2003.]

Fact: In Canada around 1920, before there was any form of gun control, their homicide rate was 7% of the U.S rate. By 1986, and after significant gun control legislation, Canada’s homicide rate was 35% of the U.S. rate – a significant increase. In 2003, Canada had a violent crime rate more than double that of the U.S. (963 vs. 475 per 100,000). [SOURCE: Juristat: Crime Statistics in Canada, 2004 and FBI Uniform Crime Statistics online]
For anyone getting ready to flame me for this post, please spare your fingers. I won’t be participating in a debate with logically incompetent people and since this thread seems to be full of them, there really is no point for me to reply back. This is the only post I am making and I don’t think I can state anything else more clearly than what I have done here anyway.
Your uncharitable attack on those that share a different opinion from your’s reveals your true colors. Christ warned against those that falsely come in His name saying that by their fruits we shall know them. Your continued false statements that you will not respond further (three times and counting), your uncharitable comments, etc.; all of these paint you in a very negative light and NOT that of a Catholic correctly representing Church & biblical teachings.
 
Hi all,
Okay so it’s off-topic but why would anyone want three guns in the first place?
I do not understand the love of guns. Is there a much-needed time in man’s future when his heart will be cleansed of the violent impulse?
God Bless,
Colmcille.
hi colmcille.

i realize i’m jumping in late after the debate really got going, and i haven’t read through all the comments beyond page 2, but i just wanted to share my answer with you as well if that’s ok. as a woman, i feel safer owning guns. i have an adequate gun for home protection and i also need a smaller gun in certain instances when i leave the house. most people who do not understand why (imho) either:

a. live in a nice neighborhood
b. have never been a violent crime victim
c. live in denial that it could ever happen to them

there are some tiny waitresses, nurses, maids, hotel clerks etc that don’t get off work till the wee hours of the morning and they live in high crime neighborhoods. they can’t afford a body guard and have a right to be able to protect themselves. to imply that they have a violent impulse is unfair. if the day ever comes when every man and woman believe that Christ is God and accept His teachings, then i promise you i will take apart my guns and make some cool art out of them.

peace.
 
ddarko:

Whether you are right or wrong in this argument has started to become irrelevant. You are showing extreme rudeness and utter lack of charity to your brothers and sisters in Christ over a simple disagreement!

I’ve been following this thread (albeit, lurking) for a while, and I have to be honest - I see “gun nuts” defending themselves with well thought out arguments and civility until provoked. I see anti-“gun nuts” being violent with their words. Remember: it is your TONGUE which can be the most deadly weapon you posess. I guess to boil it down, I’m just not “seeing the love and peace” being preached, and that is more to sway me in this discussion than any number of well written arguments. I just always figured that the “gun nuts” would have been the more “violent” ones if posts in opposition to these people carried any weight.
 
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