A New Saint - "Lily of the Mohawks"

[yukonbrad]

The problem is with the idea that “they” (in any racial/ethnic/heritage group) all agree on a term. That, in itself, can be a little insulting. For example, I remember Whoopee Goldburg taking exception to the term “African American” because she is so far removed from Africa. At the time, she said she is an American and black.

I try/tried to teach my own kids to treat their ethnicity that way with mixed results.

Quite true. I know a number of “First Nations” individuals who take umbridge with the term and actually prefer native or even aboriginal.

 

[rlg94086]

First day of teaching and 3/4 of my TA class are First Nations’ kids.

I just like to use the nouns that respect their heritage rather than our mistakes.

We were the people who thought this place was India, and America is named after a guy who “found” the place 10,000 years after it was already inhabited.

So the the indigenous peoples are not Indian and they are pre-American.

That’s not PC, that’s just accurate.

It’s PC. However, I have no problem referring to them as indigenous peoples of America in an academic paper.

Since you are all about accuracy, not all the tribes were “nations.” Many of them were just tribes. I’m not even sure they considered themselves the same “people,” as a group, until white settlers started arriving. So, is “First Nation kids” truly accurate? No. It’s PC.

 

[rlg94086]

Quite true. I know a number of “First Nations” individuals who take umbridge with the term and actually prefer native or even aboriginal.

And, some of my friends tell people, I’m Native American…or American Indian. They are proud of their heritage and have no problem with the terms.

 

[ringil]

The problem is with the idea that “they” (in any racial/ethnic/heritage group) all agree on a term. That, in itself, can be a little insulting. For example, I remember Whoopee Goldburg taking exception to the term “African American” because she is so far removed from Africa. At the time, she said she is an American and black.

I try/tried to teach my own kids to treat their ethnicity that way with mixed results.

That’s when I would go to what the individual wants to be called.

In general, at a given time, groups have decided what they want to be called- and some individuals in that group want something else.

THe main thing is that it isn’t right that people outside that group say “well we have always called you X so that is what we will call you”. It’s patronizing and shows, in my opinion, a level of arrogance “I will speak how I want to- don’t tell me how to talk”.

Iv’e had a few “really” older African American clients who called themselves “colored” and I’m certainly not going to correct them. Thankfully I never had reason to use the term with them because it would have really gotten stuck in my throat.

 

[Adirondacks518]

I live in the immediate area where the Shrine to Blessed Kateri is. We are all really excited about the coming events. If you ever get a chance to visit the Martyr’s Shrine in Auriesville NY, you should go. There’s a lot of construction going on right nowin the village of Fonda/Fultonville is, where the nearest Thruway exit comes off.

 

[rlg94086]

That’s when I would go to what the individual wants to be called.

In general, at a given time, groups have decided what they want to be called- and some individuals in that group want something else.

THe main thing is that it isn’t right that people outside that group say “well we have always called you X so that is what we will call you”. It’s patronizing and shows, in my opinion, a level of arrogance “I will speak how I want to- don’t tell me how to talk”.

Iv’e had a few “really” older African American clients who called themselves “colored” and I’m certainly not going to correct them. Thankfully I never had reason to use the term with them because it would have really gotten stuck in my throat.

Fair enough. I certainly don’t call an individual something they don’t want to be called, and I don’t use the terms “colored, negro or ******,” the latter being, of course, the most sensitive. I do correct people who use the term “oriental,” and explain to them that a rug is oriental, while a person is Asian. When it comes to the aboriginal communities in the Americas, I call them by their tribe, if I know it. Or, I use a common term. Here, it tends to be Native American.

The problem with the “individual” approach, of course, is that you will be corrected by the individual if you don’t use the “correct” term to them. Sometimes, the correction isn’t so nice.

Anyway, enough of this nonsense. Let’s celebrate the sainthood of the “Lily of the Mowhawks.” She is a great model for children of God, and is a great American saint…as in the Americas…as in North, South and Central America…as in the huge continents that we all live on together, regardless of what we are called or call ourselves.

 

[yukonbrad]

Fair enough. I certainly don’t call an individual something they don’t want to be called, and I don’t use the terms “colored, negro or ******,” the latter being, of course, the most sensitive. I do correct people who use the term “oriental,” and explain to them that a rug is oriental, while a person is Asian. When it comes to the aboriginal communities in the Americas, I call them by their tribe, if I know it. Or, I use a common term. Here, it tends to be Native American.

The problem with the “individual” approach, of course, is that you will be corrected by the individual if you don’t use the “correct” term to them. Sometimes, the correction isn’t so nice.

Anyway, enough of this nonsense. Let’s celebrate the sainthood of the “Lily of the Mowhawks.” She is a great model for children of God, and is a great American saint…as in the Americas…as in North, South and Central America…as in the huge continents that we all live on together, regardless of what we are called or call ourselves.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Canadians aren’t Americans? What continent do they belong to? Canadia?

Yup, Canadia. And they speak Canadian. Notwithstanding that Canadia is our neighbor to the north and notwithstanding that I have a sister in law who is full-blooded Canadian, I have only learned a few Canadian words, like “Snew” (“Snow” in American) and “Boxing Day” for “Christmas” and the incessant use of the expression “eh”, which seems to serve as something like a comma and without which they cannot formulate a sentence. A strange language, overall, though it is somewhat related linguistically to American.

More seriously (and I actually like Canadians) one of my granddaughters is ecstatic about this canonization. Her parents named her “Lily Kateri”. None of us are Indians (around here, Indians don’t take umbrage at the word “Indian”) but she is very, very proud of her name, and devoted to her patron.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Well, Blessed Kateri was born in 1656 Ossernenon, Iroquois Confederacy (New France until 1763, now modern Auriesville, New York) (Wiki)

And I didn’t say the CCCB was competing

Maybe it’s repeated use of the term Native American that gets to me. Having worked with First Nations people in schools and prison, as well as on reserve it just grates on me.

And like I said. it’s great that she’s being canonized. Great for First Nations people and for all North Americans.

She is also a strong role model for youth.

If she was born in New France, then the French can also claim her. A few years ago, I learned to my surprise that all people born in a former French colony have a modified “right of return” to France. I was born in the old Louisiana Territory (Mo), so I have this right. But my wife was born in Indiana, so that would present a problem, because the French never owned Indiana. She is full-blooded Alsatian, and I’m mostly Irish, so it doesn’t seem rational. But then, is it correct to accuse the French of being entirely rational?

If one has that right, one can become a French citizen by moving there for a period of time, learning the language passably well and having a knowledge and appreciation for French culture.

So, if the French can claim me, it would not be too great a stretch for the French to claim Kateri Tekakwitha.

 

[Adirondacks518]

OMG would you please people STOP with the political correctness?! Who care what indians/native americans/first nations were called.

Lets remember we are celebrating the newly given sainthood of a girl touched by God in a harsh land during a violent and turbulent period of empire. (damn nearby where I grew up) Forget all the semantics and verbal pleasantries.

 

[yukonbrad]

OMG would you please people STOP with the political correctness?! Who care what indians/native americans/first nations were called.

Lets remember we are celebrating the newly given sainthood of a girl touched by God in a harsh land during a violent and turbulent period of empire. (damn nearby where I grew up) Forget all the semantics and verbal pleasantries.

I have given up trying to remind people of the same thing - time to be amused guess I’ll see what is happenning at the DNC convention OMG what am I saying!

 

[Polycarp86]

I know what she is… she’s CATHOLIC!

 

[triumphguy]

It’s PC. However, I have no problem referring to them as indigenous peoples of America in an academic paper.

Since you are all about accuracy, not all the tribes were “nations.” Many of them were just tribes. I’m not even sure they considered themselves the same “people,” as a group, until white settlers started arriving. So, is “First Nation kids” truly accurate? No. It’s PC.

I’m not ALL about accuracy. If I was I’d be an auditor, or an accountant.

I’m just saying that something can be more correct and more appropriate and not even be concerned with PCness.

I have no idea of the status of America’s first peoples. It would be interesting to find out and compare Canada’s history to the US in dealing with their indigenous people…

The particular kids in my class come from various Nations around Calgary.

So it is one hundred percent accurate to call them First Nations kids. Which is why I did.

 

[triumphguy]

OMG would you please people STOP with the political correctness?! Who care what indians/native americans/first nations were called.

Lets remember we are celebrating the newly given sainthood of a girl touched by God in a harsh land during a violent and turbulent period of empire. (damn nearby where I grew up) Forget all the semantics and verbal pleasantries.

Many people care including the leadership of the various groups, bands, tribes etc.

Try driving into a reserve and asking where all the indians are and you’ll see who cares

 

[yukonbrad]

Many people care including the leadership of the various groups, bands, tribes etc.

Try driving into a reserve and asking where all the indians are and you’ll see who cares

Driving into a reserve up here would be impossible as there are none (in any of the territories).

 

[triumphguy]

Driving into a reserve up here would be impossible as there are none (in any of the territories).

It’s hard to drive to many places up there anyway.

Some background as to why I’m harping on this:

I was born Catholic in Manchester, England, and I hated being called a papist, left-footer, fisheater, mick. I was treated as a stranger in my own country. Catholics in Northern Ireland had it much worse: they weren’t allowed to own property, to vote or have good jobs.

Don’t we all hate getting labelled because of our religion, colour etc?

I worked in prison as a Chaplain and 30% of the inmate population was “native.” I was assigned to be the “Elder” for the indigenous population since their own tribal elder had died.

Locked in a brick and steel room with 20 or 30 “indigenous” inmates at a time trying to run “Sacred Circle” as a white guy you get culturally sensitive pretty quickly.

As part of my duties I had to escort aboriginal inmates to their reserves for funerals. Drive 5 hours into the bush with a shackled inmate to find some lonely reserve, and then take him on reserve for a “native” funeral and again you get culturally tuned in

(I would always unshackle the inmate and tell them if they ran I wouldn’t chase them… I never lost anyone.)

The fact that I came out alive in both scenarios means I must have learned a few things!

The first nations are real peoples, with real histories, real cultures and our invading culture did great damage to them as a people and as individuals.

The canonization of Blessed Kateri is more than just a good Indian girl being recognized for her holiness by the Church. It’s immensely symbolic for her people.

And has little to do with America or Canada, except she was born there and died here.

 

[yukonbrad]

It’s hard to drive to many places up there anyway.

Some background as to why I’m harping on this:

I was born Catholic in Manchester, England, and I hated being called a papist, left-footer, fisheater, mick. I was treated as a stranger in my own country. Catholics in Northern Ireland had it much worse: they weren’t allowed to own property, to vote or have good jobs.

Don’t we all hate getting labelled because of our religion, colour etc?

I worked in prison as a Chaplain and 30% of the inmate population was “native.” I was assigned to be the “Elder” for the indigenous population since their own tribal elder had died.

Locked in a brick and steel room with 20 or 30 “indigenous” inmates at a time trying to run “Sacred Circle” as a white guy you get culturally sensitive pretty quickly.

As part of my duties I had to escort aboriginal inmates to their reserves for funerals. Drive 5 hours into the bush with a shackled inmate to find some lonely reserve, and then take him on reserve for a “native” funeral and again you get culturally tuned in

(I would always unshackle the inmate and tell them if they ran I wouldn’t chase them… I never lost anyone.)

The fact that I came out alive in both scenarios means I must have learned a few things!

The first nations are real peoples, with real histories, real cultures and our invading culture did great damage to them as a people and as individuals.

The canonization of Blessed Kateri is more than just a good Indian girl being recognized for her holiness by the Church. It’s immensely symbolic for her people.

And has little to do with America or Canada, except she was born there and died here.

Indeed I quite agree with what you have posted, I just get tired of labels we need to put on each other. I was the only “white guy” in rehab - a private First Nations/Metis facility in Alberta so I know about “getting sensitive”.

Yes much of the Yukon is wide open land and driving 5 hours to Whitehorse from Watson Lake we consider no diferent than a trip to the corner store as you would.

 

[triumphguy]

Indeed I quite agree with what you have posted, I just get tired of labels we need to put on each other. I was the only “white guy” in rehab - a private First Nations/Metis facility in Alberta so I know about “getting sensitive”.

Yes much of the Yukon is wide open land and driving 5 hours to Whitehorse from Watson Lake we consider no diferent than a trip to the corner store as you would.

My sister lived in Yellowknife for many years and they would drive a couple hours for a decent coffee.

But they could only drive north, not south. The only road from the south is an ice road in winter, and except for ice-truckers who wants to drive in winter in NWT!

 

[yukonbrad]

My sister lived in Yellowknife for many years and they would drive a couple hours for a decent coffee.

But they could only drive north, not south. The only road from the south is an ice road in winter, and except for ice-truckers who wants to drive in winter in NWT!

Well at least we have the Alaska hwy and are conected to “down south” year round. Only the Cambell and Top of the world Hwys are seasonal.

 

[barb_finnegan]

OMG would you please people STOP with the political correctness?! Who care what indians/native americans/first nations were called.

Lets remember we are celebrating the newly given sainthood of a girl touched by God in a harsh land during a violent and turbulent period of empire. (damn nearby where I grew up) Forget all the semantics and verbal pleasantries.

I’m with you, Adirondacks! I’m tired of all the PC nonsense, too!

We should be ‘darn happy’ that Upstate NY has TWO new Saints being canonized!

Not only Kateri Tekakwitha, but also Mother Marianne Cope!

So you live not far from Fonda? I’m from a city about an hour’s drive west from where you live. I go to Auriesville more often than to Fonda.

You were mentioning the road construction in Fonda. Well, the last time I was at Auriesville (last month), the bridge work over the Mohawk River between Fultonville and Fonda was all finished. But when I was there in July, the traffic was horrible! Luckily I have another way to get to Auriesville (the opposite bank of the river)!