A paradox in "The Apostasy"

[CourtingTex]

Really? My girlfriend was a Mormon growing up and left and is now Catholic and she says it’s all a big sham. She was a missionary too. I’ll go with her.

Something she did not like further about the church is probably the reason she left (or she was offended by someone else), which appears to be common reason to leave the church.

The truth is not a sham, nonetheless I keep saying folks can believe whatever they want. I have read of actual accounts of former Catholic nuns (mind you, one who gave their life to God) left Catholicism and joined the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 

[jas84173]

My church and the missionaries are revealing the truth to the world, if they are interested in learning about it.

Now, I recognize the Catholics will say that is not the case ---- they have always had the truth so no need for another source to receive it ---- so how do they explain the answer that Joseph Smith was given when he went into the woods near his home to pray in the spring of 1820 (not to join any of the existing churches, including the Catholic church) from Jesus Christ?

The Holy Ghost confirmed this reality, the apostasy and brought happiness to me that I did not experience from Catholicism.

You’ve yet to answer the question. If there was an apostasy why do you use the New Testament Canon of the Church decided on in the fourth century? The Apocalypse of Peter justifies eternal salvation which is your belief. Also the Shepherd of Hermas promoted adoptionism which is also a concept in Mormonism. Why not choose your own New Testament? Why use one based on a Trinitarian council?

Give me one reason if I accept the apostasy should I accept the New Testament Canon. I’d find the apostasy claim more valid if you didn’t to be honest.

 

[CourtingTex]

It feels like scripture because it Is! Stolen! Look at these from the Deuterocanonical books or apocrypha which were in the 1611 KJV .

Deuterocanonical Book of Mormon (1830)
“We will assay to abridge in one volume… labouring to follow the rules of an abridgment… But to use brevity … is to be granted to him that will make an abridgement.” (2 Maccabees 2:25-31) “I make an abridgement of the record … after I have abridged the record… I had made an abridgement from the plates of Nephi… I write a small abridgement.” (1 Nephi 1:17, Words of Mormon 3, 5:9)
“They commanded that this writing should be put in tables of brass, and that they should be set … in a conspicuous place; Also that the copies thereof should be laid up in the treasury” (1 Maccabees 14:48-49) “And I commanded him … that he should go with me into the treasury … I also spake unto him that I should carry the engravings, which were upon the plates of brass” (1 Nephi 4:20,24)
“Then the king, in closing the place, made it holy … many men call it Nephi”. (2 Maccabees 1:34,36) “And my people would that we should call the name of the place Nephi; wherefore we did call it Nephi”. (2 Nephi 5:8)
“And it came to pass … I dreamed a dream by night” (2 Esdras 13:1) “And it came to pass … Behold, I have dreamed a dream” (1 Nephi 8:2)

I love these created words, supposing to be from the Book of Mormon, which of course they are not.

Nice try, nonetheless your continued efforts to show me that my church is anything other than what it proclaims to the world, keeps showing the motives of the folks whose express purpose to TRY to prove my church is not what it professes. Your actions are similar in a way to the critics who cowardly covered their faces when they went into Liberty Jail, to kill Joseph Smith and his brother, Hyrum back in June 1844.

They thought the church was dead and finished, yet 15 other prophets seers and revelators have succeeded Joseph Smith. I have not a worry about the continued recycled non sense that comes from the forums/etc to try to convince me that I do not have the truth and should go back to Catholicism. Again nice try.

 

[jas84173]

I love these created words, supposing to be from the Book of Mormon, which of course they are not.

Nice try, nonetheless your continued efforts to show me that my church is anything other than what it proclaims to the world, keeps showing the motives of the folks whose express purpose to TRY to prove my church is not what it professes. Your actions are similar in a way to the critics who cowardly covered their faces when they went into Liberty Jail, to kill Joseph Smith and his brother, Hyrum back in June 1844.

They thought the church was dead and finished, yet 15 other prophets seers and revelators have succeeded Joseph Smith. I have not a worry about the continued recycled non sense that comes from the forums/etc to try to convince me that I do not have the truth and should go back to Catholicism. Again nice try.

If you don’t believe me go read them for yourself. There right in the 1611 KJV. I assume you only read the KJV. Another paradox. They say the KJV is the only version which hasn’t been corrupted yet the KJV has been retranslated itself about five times.

 

[adf417]

Something she did not like further about the church is probably the reason she left (or she was offended by someone else), which appears to be common reason to leave the church.

Yeeeeeeeeeppppp! I know what you mean.

Peace!!!

 

[JMM1957]

The Apostasy began when the church organized by Jesus Christ did not function as he had created it to do so and in particular, no longer had authorized servants to advance the work of his church.

I submit that the main reason Joseph Smith went into the woods near his home in the spring 1820 was to find out which of the existing churches, including Catholicism, he should join.

Of course, he was told to join none of them, because they drew near to God and Christ with their lips, yet their hearts were far from them, teaching the commandments of men. The Apostasy clearly occurred centuries earlier, requiring a restoration (bringing back that structure that Christ had when he organized his church with apostles and prophets).

Further ---- Joseph Smith as I have noted did not go into the woods near his home in the spring of 1820 to create a church of his own making, despite how our critics firmly make clear in their false statements and views.

For the Catholics who contend the Apostasy did not occur, mainly on their view, that the gates had not prevailed on his church and the church is built on Peter ------answer this with a reply that is anything than the usual reply, making clear the Protestants have no footing to stand on because they broke from Catholicism.

The restored church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints was necessary because the original church began by Jesus Christ himself years after his death had become corrupted and did not have the proper priesthood authority, which is important when acting in the name of God.

I am not arrogant in having a conviction of the truth of my church. That conviction came from the Holy Ghost.

Sorry, but you fail to grasp the understanding that the Holy Spirit, the Son of God, and the Father all are united in purpose, therefore, the Holy Spirit would not contradict the Son of God when he stated “the gates of hell will not prevail against my Church”.

 

[CourtingTex]

Sorry, but you fail to grasp the understanding that the Holy Spirit, the Son of God, and the Father all are united in purpose, therefore, the Holy Spirit would not contradict the Son of God when he stated “the gates of hell will not prevail against my Church”.

My church does not believe in the Trinity.

Joseph Smith in the First Vision, received what few prophets have in human history ---- he saw two personages (God the Father and Jesus Christ), refuting this Trinity view.

So the Holy Ghost lied to me and so I should return to Catholicism??? Your replies to me only validate the truth of what I continue in building my testimony and conviction of the truth of the restored church.

 

[jas84173]

My church does not believe in the Trinity.

Joseph Smith in the First Vision, received what few prophets have in human history ---- he saw two personages (God the Father and Jesus Christ), refuting this Trinity view.

So the Holy Ghost lied to me and so I should return to Catholicism??? Your replies to me only validate the truth of what I continue in building my testimony and conviction of the truth of the restored church.

You have yet to explain why then you accept the Canon of the New Testament which wasn’t formally set until 397 A.D. mainly to combat heresies which were constantly coming forth. The Canon was set by orthodox Christians.

Your beliefs only obtain to if there was an apostasy. If there was, you are a hippocrite because you still cite scriptures that the "church with no authority " decided on.

Say it. The New Testament Canon is not correct because the Church lost authority. In doing that I will totallh respect your view on the apostasy, though you’d also somewhat be a heretic in the Mormon Church I suppose. It’s a paradox that is almost comical. I wish you were open to defending your beliefs in something more than riddles but it seems that’s what Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses do mostly. By the way I did a pilgrimage to Israel once, where can I go to see the ruins in the BOM? And why are there animals in the BOM that historically didn’t even exist in the Americas at the time? Who wrote this book anyways L Ron Hubbard?

 

[CourtingTex]

You have yet to explain why then you accept the Canon of the New Testament which wasn’t formally set until 397 A.D. mainly to combat heresies which were constantly coming forth. The Canon was set by orthodox Christians.

Your beliefs only obtain to if there was an apostasy. If there was, you are a hippocrite because you still cite scriptures that the "church with no authority " decided on.

Say it. The New Testament Canon is not correct because the Church lost authority. In doing that I will totallh respect your view on the apostasy, though you’d also somewhat be a heretic in the Mormon Church I suppose. It’s a paradox that is almost comical. I wish you were open to defending your beliefs in something more than riddles but it seems that’s what Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses do mostly. By the way I did a pilgrimage to Israel once, where can I go to see the ruins in the BOM? And why are there animals in the BOM that historically didn’t even exist in the Americas at the time? Who wrote this book anyways L Ron Hubbard?

Base on part of your reply, your validate why I believe the Bible to be correct, so far it was translated correctly. I will say that a number of hands had contact with the New Testament, changing it for whatever purposes so the rest of the Christian world is suppose say thank you for the Catholic Bible?? For me, never to the thank you.

You validate further why Protestants broke from Catholicism.

No riddles in my conviction of the truth.

Catholics expect Latter Day Saints like me to accept they you are what you profess, yet long before I was ever on the forums, I knew that Catholicism is not what it professes. The arrogance is a characteristic you are unwilling to let go.

As of the Book of Mormon, the prophets wrote what the Book of Mormon contains so based on issue regarding animals, it is not another testament of Jesus Christ? For me, it is needed now more than ever in light of the larger and larger divisions that exist with the Christian world.

 

[jas84173]

Base on part of your reply, your validate why I believe the Bible to be correct, so far it was translated correctly. I will say that a number of hands had contact with the New Testament, changing it for whatever purposes so the rest of the Christian world is suppose say thank you for the Catholic Bible?? For me, never to the thank you.

You validate further why Protestants broke from Catholicism.

No riddles in my conviction of the truth.

Catholics expect Latter Day Saints like me to accept they you are what you profess, yet long before I was ever on the forums, I knew that Catholicism is not what it professes. The arrogance is a characteristic you are unwilling to let go.

As of the Book of Mormon, the prophets wrote what the Book of Mormon contains so based on issue regarding animals, it is not another testament of Jesus Christ? For me, it is needed now more than ever in light of the larger and larger divisions that exist with the Christian world.

Well no not Catholics only. The Orthodox as well. At the time it was just the great Church and the Bishop of Rome was the first among equals in the provinces of Rome, Alexandria, Constantinople, Antioch, and Jerusalem. It’s not a thank you Catholics but more of thank you to the True Church. Orthodox Christianity and Catholic Christianity are separated by trivial doctrines but in the end are the only two who can trace themselves back to Christ.

 

[JMM1957]

My church does not believe in the Trinity.

Joseph Smith in the First Vision, received what few prophets have in human history ---- he saw two personages (God the Father and Jesus Christ), refuting this Trinity view.

So the Holy Ghost lied to me and so I should return to Catholicism??? Your replies to me only validate the truth of what I continue in building my testimony and conviction of the truth of the restored church.

The Holy Ghost and Jesus would not contradict each other, therefore when Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, and you say the Holy Ghost validates what Joseph Smith experienced and taught about the need for a restored church and gospel, then that’s a classic contradiction if I ever saw one.

 

[adf417]

Well no not Catholics only. The Orthodox as well. At the time it was just the great Church and the Bishop of Rome was the first among equals in the provinces of Rome, Alexandria, Constantinople, Antioch, and Jerusalem. It’s not a thank you Catholics but more of thank you to the True Church. Orthodox Christianity and Catholic Christianity are separated by trivial doctrines but in the end are the only two who can trace themselves back to Christ.

Oh no! Not the Orthodox angle of the same argument. Can there be 2 apostasy churches while there is only one church?

Peace!!!

 

[jas84173]

Oh no! Not the Orthodox angle of the same argument. Can there be 2 apostasy churches while there is only one church?

Peace!!!

I wasn’t saying there was two different churches. At the time this supposed apostasy occurred there wasn’t a separate Catholic and Orthodox Church. At this point in time the only thing that differentiated the east and west was the west spoke Latin and the east spoke Greek. Remember the two were in full communion with each other until 1054. The reasons they separated almost seem ridiculous now. Filioque, using leavened or unleavened bread, purgatory, and papal authority is the biggest. Personally I believe in papal authority but also think I liked the system of the early church where the Bishop of Rome was the first among equals to the Bishops in Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. Now of course the patriarch of Constantinople is the first among equals but prior to the split the Pope was.

 

[adf417]

I wasn’t saying there was two different churches. At the time this supposed apostasy occurred there wasn’t a separate Catholic and Orthodox Church. At this point in time the only thing that differentiated the east and west was the west spoke Latin and the east spoke Greek. Remember the two were in full communion with each other until 1054. The reasons they separated almost seem ridiculous now. Filioque, using leavened or unleavened bread, purgatory, and papal authority is the biggest. Personally I believe in papal authority but also think I liked the system of the early church where the Bishop of Rome was the first among equals to the Bishops in Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. Now of course the patriarch of Constantinople is the first among equals but prior to the split the Pope was.

Yea i got that i was just joking how this thread could take a turn how the Catholic church went apostate without considering the Orthodox at all. I still wonder how many people do not know about the Orthodox and its rich history in that they can trace their lineage all the way back also. Could be another possible paradox.

Peace!!!

 

[kimg901]

My church does not believe in the Trinity.

Joseph Smith in the First Vision, received what few prophets have in human history ---- he saw two personages (God the Father and Jesus Christ), refuting this Trinity view.

So the Holy Ghost lied to me and so I should return to Catholicism??? Your replies to me only validate the truth of what I continue in building my testimony and conviction of the truth of the restored church.

But smith had 9 versions of his vision. He couldn’t keep them straight. So I’m going to play a game of top trumps with you Tex. The card you are holding is the Holy Ghost that says the lds church is true. My card that I’m holding is Jesus Christ and He told me to go out and protect His Church. Which by the way was a huge rock in the middle of a field that He pointed to. So who is holding the top card here? Do you understand what I’m talking about and what others here have said? At the time of my vision I was not a member of any church because I no longer believed. So when smith said God and Jesus told him all other churches were and abomination, Jesus failed and sent His Apostles to their deaths knowing He got it all wrong? Is that what your church is saying?

 

[Thom18]

adf417;14873768:

I do not have it wrong. Someone else, I related how it probably was for them — of course I am not someone else or in their head.

Why some do not join my church — my guess they did not receive a confirmation through the Holy Ghost, the missionaries were nice and all, yet their loyalty rested elsewhere, particular Catholics who again and again and again, I read threads on the forums here where they came to their front door, they were allowed to come in (I find that interesting) — if Catholics had a conviction of what they profess, why would allow my church’s missionaries in at all?

How do you know that the Holy Spirit is speaking to you, and not the person who reports the same thing and becomes Catholic or protestant? If I understand correctly, you call it having a “burning in the bosom.” How do you know that this is actually the Holy Spirit? What if it’s just your mind playing tricks on you?

I would imagine the reason many Catholics allow LDS and JW missionaries into our homes is because they seek to evangelize them. We want to teach them about our faith, and hopefully lead them out of what we believe is false. I haven’t had a visit from either (not counting family) in a long time, but that’s what I would do.

 

[Thom18]

I do not have it wrong. Someone else, I related how it probably was for them — of course I am not someone else or in their head.

Why some do not join my church — my guess they did not receive a confirmation through the Holy Ghost, the missionaries were nice and all, yet their loyalty rested elsewhere, particular Catholics who again and again and again, I read threads on the forums here where they came to their front door, they were allowed to come in (I find that interesting) — if Catholics had a conviction of what they profess, why would allow my church’s missionaries in at all?

How do you know that the Holy Spirit is speaking to you, and not the person who reports the same thing and becomes Catholic or protestant? If I understand correctly, you call it having a “burning in the bosom.” How do you know that this is actually the Holy Spirit? What if it’s just your mind playing tricks on you?

I would imagine the reason many Catholics allow LDS and JW missionaries into our homes is because they seek to evangelize them. We want to teach them about our faith, and hopefully lead them out of falsehood. I haven’t had a visit from either group (not counting family) in a long time, but that’s what I would do.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Still curious why the Book of Mormon uses KJV style English in the 19th century United States. Still curious what other gods there are in JW theology if Jesus was “a god” (NWT Bible, John 1). Anyway, I’ve decided to read “Inside Mormonism”, again. Maybe y’all will join me. If all these Restoration groups are restoring the early church, shan’t they at least look like each other and have similar theology?

 

[Tarquin]

I am not arrogant in having a conviction of the truth of my church. That conviction came from the Holy Ghost.

You kind of are. That’s normal for people deeply committed to their beliefs. Sometimes one’s conviction blinds him to the reality of an alternative.

The Holy Ghost or lack of it in one’s life will have folks decide what road they are on and I will respect that of whomever.

You talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? I don’t see much respect in comparing Catholic Forum members to cowardly murderers!

Your actions are similar in a way to the critics who cowardly covered their faces when they went into Liberty Jail, to kill Joseph Smith and his brother….

and .

I have not a worry about the continued recycled non sense that comes from the forums…

Maybe “respect” is another in the long list of words that Mormons given their own definition to.

 

[CourtingTex]

You kind of are. That’s normal for people deeply committed to their beliefs. Sometimes one’s conviction blinds him to the reality of an alternative. You talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? I don’t see much respect in comparing Catholic Forum members to cowardly murderers! and . Maybe “respect” is another in the long list of words that Mormons given their own definition to.

Why are some Catholics so sensitive to critics of Catholicism?

I expect to regularly read something that I know is not what I believe, nonetheless why make a issue of it all?