A paradox in "The Apostasy"

[Tarquin]

People can believe in Christ or nothing at all.

That is personal with each person. Confirmation through the Holy Ghost will be different for each person.

Folks can believe whatever they choose.

… I keep saying folks can believe whatever they want.

What EVER would we do, were it not for Mormons giving people their permission to believe whatever they want. I, too, extend that liberty to you. You are free to believe whatever you want. I can only point out the contradictions and falsehoods in Mormon history and doctrines, and explain what it is that Jesus has taught that is so much at odds at what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught – and that Mormons believe – but it is up to you whether you will accept that true teaching - the light and truth of Christ - or follow the teachings of perdition (Satan tempted Adam and Eve by telling them they could be as God! He appealed to their natural sense of yearning to be superior. The devil was a liar from the beginning, and his disciples, too.) You can believe Jesus, or you can believe Joseph Smith, Warren Jeffs, Buddha, the Aga Khan, or nothing, whatever you want. If Mormonism makes you happy, then that’s your answer. If Truth makes you happy, you’ll have to always be on the watch.

 

[Tarquin]

Something she did not like further about the church is probably the reason she left (or she was offended by someone else), which appears to be common reason to leave the church.

Or that could be why *you *left the Catholic Church – “someone probably offended you,” or you didn’t like what your priest said, or you didn’t like attending mass, or you didn’t want to obey one of the commandments, or someone didn’t pay enough attention to you, or you started thinking you understood doctrines better than your priest - and now you just *imagine *you are having a Holy Ghost moment.

 

[CourtingTex]

What EVER would we do, were it not for Mormons giving people their permission to believe whatever they want. I, too, extend that liberty to you. You are free to believe whatever you want. I can only point out the contradictions and falsehoods in Mormon history and doctrines, and explain what it is that Jesus has taught that is so much at odds at what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught – and that Mormons believe – but it is up to you whether you will accept that true teaching - the light and truth of Christ - or follow the teachings of perdition (Satan tempted Adam and Eve by telling them they could be as God! He appealed to their natural sense of yearning to be superior. The devil was a liar from the beginning, and his disciples, too.) You can believe Jesus, or you can believe Joseph Smith, Warren Jeffs, Buddha, the Aga Khan, or nothing, whatever you want. If Mormonism makes you happy, then that’s your answer. If Truth makes you happy, you’ll have to always be on the watch.

You validate my point so why are you bringing it up? Why, why are some Catholics so arrogant?

I do not have to explain the who knows how many notations spread about my church’s doctrine. Sincere folks can ask, hopefully seeking a answer versus gaining more ammo in their continued assault on my church.

 

[Tarquin]

Why are some Catholics so sensitive to critics of Catholicism?

I expect to regularly read something that I know is not what I believe, nonetheless why make a issue of it all?

Catholics, being human beings, are undoubtedly sensitive for the same reasons that Mormons are about criticism of Mormonism. That being said, I think it’s natural to take at least a little offense when one is compared to a set of people wo are identified as “cowardly” and killers, don’t you?

 

[CourtingTex]

The Holy Ghost and Jesus would not contradict each other, therefore when Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, and you say the Holy Ghost validates what Joseph Smith experienced and taught about the need for a restored church and gospel, then that’s a classic contradiction if I ever saw one.

Let’s be clear ---- you believe in the Trinity. I believe in the First Vision, the God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate personages.

Obviously you do not have believe in what Joseph Smith experienced.

 

[JMM1957]

Let’s be clear ---- you believe in the Trinity. I believe in the First Vision, the God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate personages.

Obviously you do not have believe in what Joseph Smith experienced.

Your own LDS website says that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are united in purpose and doctrine, so you can’t deny that. All I’m saying is that the Son of God, Jesus Christ, said in Matthew 16:18 that the “gates of hell will not prevail against my Church”, and you claim the Holy Ghost confirmed to you that the LDS church is the restored true church, meaning that the Church Jesus established on Peter and the Apostles, what became known as the Catholic Church, went into apostasy shortly after their deaths, according to LDS. That my friend, is a big contradiction, and apparently you are too blind to see it.

 

[Tarquin]

Contradiction

The Holy Ghost and Jesus would not contradict each other, therefore when Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 that the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church, and you say the Holy Ghost validates what Joseph Smith experienced and taught about the need for a restored church and gospel, then that’s a classic contradiction if I ever saw one.

Let’s be clear ---- you believe in the Trinity. I believe in the First Vision, the God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate personages.

Obviously you do not have believe in what Joseph Smith experienced.

You believe Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate personages. That has nothing at all to do with whether there was a contradiction! If - *someplace *- something says “the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church” and - *someplace *- somebody says “the gates of hell **prevailed **against the Church,” that is a “contradiction.” If the Church needs to be “restored,” then somehow it was displaced. Something prevailed against it, and successfully displaced it and took over its jurisdiction.

9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

• 1 Nephi 14:9-11 and beyond

The devil’s agent, the mother of abominations, prevailed (“had dominion”) over all nations and all people.

 

[JMM1957]

Let’s be clear ---- you believe in the Trinity. I believe in the First Vision, the God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate personages.

Obviously you do not have believe in what Joseph Smith experienced.

In all gentleness, I realize that after spending 30 years in the LDS church you do not question anything they teach, as it appears to me. Even when the church gets a new prophet, and teachings change, you continue to stay loyal. You believe the Bible is the Word of God, which doesn’t fail, and yet you cannot let go of the Joseph Smith story and the contradiction it brings to the Word of God in the Bible, I think that somehow you are hoping beyond hope that there is no contradiction and that Jesus’ statement in Matthew 16:18 and what Joseph Smith experienced are both true and can exist in harmony with each other, but it cannot, it is impossible.

 

[jas84173]

Let’s be clear ---- you believe in the Trinity. I believe in the First Vision, the God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate personages.

Obviously you do not have believe in what Joseph Smith experienced.

So if I get a vision to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster I should go with it? What’s the matter with you. You think Christ built a church just for it to fail and restore it in upstate New York? Jeez maybe I’m a prophet too. I can’t believe people can fall for wolves in sheep’s clothing. If you’d like I will write you a new testament of Jesus Christ and make sure not to put animals and technologies that didn’t even exist in the Americas at the time. Tell me there’s an apostasy when all but two of Joseph Smith’s own original followers were ex communicated. That’s an apostasy right there. I’d say Brigham Young was the apostasy. And contradictions. Oh polygamy is illegal, well prophet just got revelation that we shouldn’t do it anymore. Hey we seem racist not allowing blacks to be priests. Oh prophet gets message from God that we allow it now. The whole church is laughable. Satan is laughing at anyone who believes this garbage. It’s not even believable and people believe it. I can see why people thought Mani and Muhammad were prophets but Joseph Smith? Come on. I am so done talking about this joke of a heresy.

 

[Wannano]

So if I get a vision to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster I should go with it? What’s the matter with you. You think Christ built a church just for it to fail and restore it in upstate New York? Jeez maybe I’m a prophet too. I can’t believe people can fall for wolves in sheep’s clothing. If you’d like I will write you a new testament of Jesus Christ and make sure not to put animals and technologies that didn’t even exist in the Americas at the time. Tell me there’s an apostasy when all but two of Joseph Smith’s own original followers were ex communicated. That’s an apostasy right there. I’d say Brigham Young was the apostasy. And contradictions. Oh polygamy is illegal, well prophet just got revelation that we shouldn’t do it anymore. Hey we seem racist not allowing blacks to be priests. Oh prophet gets message from God that we allow it now. The whole church is laughable. Satan is laughing at anyone who believes this garbage. It’s not even believable and people believe it. I can see why people thought Mani and Muhammad were prophets but Joseph Smith? Come on. I am so done talking about this joke of a heresy.

I have come to understand that changes the RCC has made is referred to as “development.” I am not a proponent of Mormonism at all but even they should be allowed to have “development” to be fair. No?

 

[adamhovey1988]

I have come to understand that changes the RCC has made is referred to as “development.” I am not a proponent of Mormonism at all but even they should be allowed to have “development” to be fair. No?

Development involves deeper understanding of doctrines, not the change of those doctrines

 

[eddie_too]

i have always thought the biggest problem with those who believe the early church became apostate and thus justify the more recent establishment of their belief system as a restoration of the early christian faith is this: why in the world would God restore a faith that clearly (according to the restorationists) was authentic for only a very short time?

what kind of God repeats His errors? in fact, what kind of God makes errors?

for me, it is an absurdity to ask me to believe in a faith that failed the first time it was tried; and that is the essence of the LDS’ justification for its establishment.

 

[JMM1957]

i have always thought the biggest problem with those who believe the early church became apostate and thus justify the more recent establishment of their belief system as a restoration of the early christian faith is this: why in the world would God restore a faith that clearly (according to the restorationists) was authentic for only a very short time?

what kind of God repeats His errors? in fact, what kind of God makes errors?

for me, it is an absurdity to ask me to believe in a faith that failed the first time it was tried; and that is the essence of the LDS’ justification for its establishment.

I like how you think.

 

[adf417]

I like how you think.

Me too!

Peace!!!

 

[mackbrislawn]

I have come to understand that changes the RCC has made is referred to as “development.” I am not a proponent of Mormonism at all but even they should be allowed to have “development” to be fair. No?

That is a valid question.

But, think of it this way, if the Mormons (and Protestants too) regard the “development” in the RCC as “corruption,” why can’t we regard the development and changes in the Mormon Church as corruption as well?

This is raises the question, if God abandoned the first corrupt church, why won’t He abandon his latter day second corrupt church? Hmm, who knows, maybe He has.

That’s the logical problem, if God could not manage to keep His first church going right, you wonder if maybe He can’t keep his second, restored, church going right, either. Maybe the second church is now apostate as well.

In addition, which of the restored churches is really the authentic restored church? Because there are several offshoots of the original. Is the real one of Brigham Young, or the real one of the descendants of Joseph Smith? The Watchtower claims to be the restored church too. There is a lot of mileage to be had from the notion of apostasy.

However, Mormons (and the Watchtower) agree with the Catholics, and against the Protestants, that there does need to be an authentic, official, divinely guided and visible Church on earth.

 

[Wannano]

That is a valid question.

But, think of it this way, if the Mormons (and Protestants too) regard the “development” in the RCC as “corruption,” why can’t we regard the development and changes in the Mormon Church as corruption as well?

This is raises the question, if God abandoned the first corrupt church, why won’t He abandon his latter day second corrupt church? Hmm, who knows, maybe He has.

That’s the logical problem, if God could not manage to keep His first church going right, you wonder if maybe He can’t keep his second, restored, church going right, either. Maybe the second church is now apostate as well.

In addition, which of the restored churches is really the authentic restored church? Because there are several offshoots of the original. Is the real one of Brigham Young, or the real one of the descendants of Joseph Smith? The Watchtower claims to be the restored church too. There is a lot of mileage to be had from the notion of apostasy.

However, Mormons (and the Watchtower) agree with the Catholics, and against the Protestants, that there does need to be an authentic, official, divinely guided and visible Church on earth.

I don’t think God made errors or can’t manage His Church. The problem is man. God’s plan is so simple man has to devise ways to complicate it so he can feel like he understands it.

 

[mackbrislawn]

I don’t think God made errors or can’t manage His Church. The problem is man. God’s plan is so simple man has to devise ways to complicate it so he can feel like he understands it.

But God manages his church through man.

 

[adf417]

But God manages his church through man.

And this church cannot be hidden lest it be a horrible joke to those truly seeking.

Peace!!!

 

[Wannano]

But God manages his church through man.

Yes and man changes what was set forth and simple to create systems that work for his own devices. If we can agree on that we have accomplished something. Beyond that we start arguing over it all.

 

[mackbrislawn]

Yes and man changes what was set forth and simple to create systems that work for his own devices. If we can agree on that we have accomplished something. Beyond that we start arguing over it all.

Agreed, so the question now becomes which systems work for his own devices.