A peaceful man that Muhammad was

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Greg27 said:
It is unfortunate in more recent times governments and terrorist organisations have transformed Islamic religion into a political ideaology they then use to justify abominable acts of violence against all human life
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Hi
I agree.
This is only a political game, it is has got nothing to do with any religion.
Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
It is the hardened clergy or their followers who don’t respect human life like the hardened clergy of the Jews who persecuted Jesus.
Thanks
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When you can convince the other billion+ Muslims to your particular brand of faith there might be some reason to accept what you propose, but until then I will trust my own judgment.

With respect to your claim that Muhammad was a peaceful man during his first 55 years- so what? The mythology that surrounds his early life is not relavent to his legacy of violence and domination that he instituted after fleeing to Medina.

It takes courage to look beyond the veneer of a man, and integrity to evaluate the totality of the individual even when it may cast a less than perfect picture of what he claims to represent.

Would you say this description is of a good man?
To everyone who met him, he seemed a likable and affable man. He was widely respected in the community, charming and easy to get along with. He was a good Catholic and sharp businessman who, when not running his construction company was active in the Jaycees and was also a Democratic Party precinct captain, when he had his photo taken with then First Lady, Rosalynn Carter. He also spent much of his free time hosting elaborate street parties for his friends and neighbors, serving in community groups and entertaining children as “Pogo the Clown”. He was a generous, hard working, friendly, devoted family man, everyone knew that.
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Verisimilitude said:
When you can convince the other billion+ Muslims to your particular brand of faith there might be some reason to accept what you propose.
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Hi
You please see that we are convincing the traditional Muslims that Islam/Quran/Muhammad are peaceful, there is no need of any violence. This is the prime message of PromisedMessiahImamMahdi, when this message reaches the corners of the Earth, people would understand it and the ongoing religious strife as is destined would end peacefully.
I think you could, remaining a steadfast Catholic yourself, lend your support for peaceful Islam/Quran/Muhammad for a peaceful world. It is reasonable.
Thanks
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi
You please see that we are convincing the traditional Muslims that Islam/Quran/Muhammad are peaceful, there is no need of any violence.
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Traditional Muslims like 1400 yr old tradition, not your new way of thinking. Good luck.
This is the prime message of PromisedMessiahImamMahdi, when this message reaches the corners of the Earth, people would understand it and the ongoing religious strife as is destined would end peacefully.
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Traditional Muslims do not seem to share your view of the prime messege. People are begining to understand I think, however.

I think you could, remaining a steadfast Catholic yourself, lend your support for peaceful Islam/Quran/Muhammad for a peaceful world. It is reasonable.
Thanks

Reasonable maybe, but then my morals would be compromised. As long as you proclaim Muhammad as a messenger of god, justify his actions as dignified and holy, and use his words to define reason and logic; there will be no support from me in promoting anything Mohammedan.

What I will support is introducing you to who God really is. Would you like me to tell you?
 
Paarsuey -

One of the reasons that I do not think that islam is a religion of God, is because of some of the things you mentioned. Like that mohammad wanted unity, and not the different tribes. Well, surprisingly enough, mohammad taught that.

mohammad, in my opinion, was nothing but a man who wanted reform. He saw how things were, and he wanted them to change. Of course, being a politicain would not help. So, he claimed to be a prophet.

Even during his farewell speech, he constantly said “if you are muslim, you are arab, there are not tribes.”

You see. mohammad was a very poluitical person. And he ONLY focussed on changing the arab ways, not the non arabs. This is why it is no surprise that he claimed to be a prophet.

Let’s look at some Biblical figures… Paul is a great example. Before he came to Chrsit, he killed people, he was a liar, he hated people, and he was distrusted. However, once he found Christ, he completely made a 180. He became a very peaceful, loving man.

What is in islam though, is what mohammad believed all along. Unity amongst tribes, etc.

And, islam seemed to be influenced a lot by what was around mohammad. Example would be the kabaa. Another one would be the concept that Jesus is not God, nor the Son of God. This was a belief that khadija held. Khadija was a memmber of a breakoff sect of Catholicism. They also believed that Catholics worshipped the Blessed Mother (which, not surprisingly, the quran says that trinity is Father, son, and Mother LOL)

You see, what islam teahces, is nothing out of the norm from what mohammad had already believed. He just combined them all together, and formed a religion. It is strictly political.

So when people show me that mohammad believed this or that before he claimed to be a prophet, all I can think is “Ohhh, no wonder muslims believe that. mohammad had believed that, and that is why it is an islamic belief.”

So thank you for showing me that I was right… mohammad made islam strictly for political reasons! 👍
 
Greg27
I’d have to disagree with you about Karen Armstrong being balanced about Muhammad. She did gloss over his violence and paedophilia including making up lies.

For instance she claimed that according to Tabari Aisha had reached puberty by the time she was nine. This is a plain out and out lie.
 
Verisimilitude said:
Can you support that view that it is only in recent times such a transformation took place? Since it’s inception, Islam has made no distinction between the religious and political way of life combining all aspects of society to it’s influence.

Can you also support it’s dogma and/or doctrine that suggests all human life is sacred? I have tried, and in almost every instance, sacred human life is qualified to other Mohammedans only, and those who submit to their political and religious dictates.
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A similar challenge can be made against Catholic Christianity. Many Popes refused to believe that secular power could be independent of ecclesiastic power and acted like worldly rulers and generals. In terms of the sacredness of human life, Catholicism on one hand strongly defends the sanctity of human life yet in the past it ruthlessly exterminated Jews, Muslims, Orthodox Christians, alleged heretics, Protestants, and also tried to force people into conversion to Catholicism on pain of death or exile(the miserable case of Spain under Isabella for example is but one of many).

As one poster here wisely said: "If we mention Muslim atrocities - they could bring up ours; they have plenty to choose from. Both religions have blood on their hands, buckets of it. That is why atrocity-swapping is such a waste of time. And why grace is so important: it is not based on what we deserve, but purely on God’s Love, which transcends justice, by fulfilling it & going beyond it; it’s not locked into the attitude of the atrocity-swappers, so it can go beyond the ethical framework on which that attitude relies, the attitude which stops at justice. "
 
Verisimilitude said:
Traditional Muslims do not seem to share your view of the prime messege. People are begining to understand I think, however.
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Hi
Since we convince the TraditionalMuslims with reasonable and logical arguments inherent in the verses of Quran; so ultimately they would understand as you have rightly observed, “People are begining to understand I think, however.” . It is a good beginning which we should support with prayers- a joint and successful tool of Catholics and Ahmadis.
Thanks
 
Yes, Greg. That’s why Jesus Christ said, “kill those who don’t believe in God or the last day, unless they are Jews in which case they have to pay the submission tax with humiliation.”

Invoking this commandment from Jesus Christ the Christians went and committed atrocities against non-believers.

Therefore, Christianity is just as much tarred with hateful teachings as Islam.
 
Verisimilitude said:
but then my morals would be compromised.
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Hi
You don’t have to unnecessarily compromise on your morals. You don’t have to convert; remain a steadfast Catholic, we could develop a peaceful working relationship without converting, we are religious people we do not have any political agenda, we must have confidence in peace, that is the only requirement.
Thanks
 
Greg27 said:
A similar challenge can be made against Catholic Christianity. Many Popes refused to believe that secular power could be independent of ecclesiastic power and acted like worldly rulers and generals. In terms of the sacredness of human life, Catholicism on one hand strongly defends the sanctity of human life yet in the past it ruthlessly exterminated Jews, Muslims, Orthodox Christians, alleged heretics, Protestants, and also tried to force people into conversion to Catholicism on pain of death or exile(the miserable case of Spain under Isabella for example is but one of many).

As one poster here wisely said: "If we mention Muslim atrocities - they could bring up ours; they have plenty to choose from. Both religions have blood on their hands, buckets of it. That is why atrocity-swapping is such a waste of time. And why grace is so important: it is not based on what we deserve, but purely on God’s Love, which transcends justice, by fulfilling it & going beyond it; it’s not locked into the attitude of the atrocity-swappers, so it can go beyond the ethical framework on which that attitude relies, the attitude which stops at justice. "
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However, the main difference is that The Church no longer sanctions violent reprisals or sends out armies; we have evolved, or matured. The past was more violent in general. Many babies didn’t live past their 1st yr, many died at birth. Diseases were rampant, there were often inadequate food supplies. Things must be viewed in context.

From what I have read about Islam and the many contradictions in the Quran, I can’t believe this is a religion worth giving up everything for. Christianity has history to back it up, and is logical (given that one believes the Bible is God-breathed and the Church was given by Jesus to guide and interpret it).

And even though there were bad Popes, not one ever taught the faith wrongly. Sorry to say, even popes are not always perfect or even saintly men.

Peace,
Mimi
 
Have you guys heard this teaching of Jesus Christ? It’s in a parable somewhere, I think.

Jesus said to his disciples, "take not non-Christians as friends, for they are only friends to each other. They wish that you convert out of Christianity and be like them. So take not non-Christians as friends, UNTIL THEY EMIGRATE in the way of the Christian God.

But if they should TURN AWAY from Christianity, seize and kill them wherever you find them.

Except if they should seek refuge in a country which has a peace treaty with Christians,

or if these apostates should RUN AWAY and promise not to attack the Christians. But if they stay then seize and kill them for they are APOSTATES.

Yes, that was how Jesus Christ commanded the Christians to kill and persecute apostates.

I see what you mean, Greg. The teachings of Jesus Christ are just as hateful as those of some other prophet.
 
Rodrigo_Bivar said:
Have you guys heard this teaching of Jesus Christ? It’s in a parable somewhere, I think.

Jesus said to his disciples, "take not non-Christians as friends, for they are only friends to each other. They wish that you convert out of Christianity and be like them. So take not non-Christians as friends, UNTIL THEY EMIGRATE in the way of the Christian God.

But if they should TURN AWAY from Christianity, seize and kill them wherever you find them.

Except if they should seek refuge in a country which has a peace treaty with Christians,

or if these apostates should RUN AWAY and promise not to attack the Christians. But if they stay then seize and kill them for they are APOSTATES.

Yes, that was how Jesus Christ commanded the Christians to kill and persecute apostates.

I see what you mean, Greg. The teachings of Jesus Christ are just as hateful as those of some other prophet.
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That’s not in an scripture I’ve ever seen.

With all due respect, I don’t believe it exists either.
 
Hard to believe it, isn’t it, MelanieAnne,

But this teaching does exist. You just haven’t looked in the right place. Perhaps my sarcasm is misplaced. But I assure you this teaching does exist.
 
MelanieAnne said:
That’s not in an scripture I’ve ever seen.

With all due respect, I don’t believe it exists either.
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I do believe he is being sarcastic and taking Qur’anic text and making it look like its from the bible.
 
The attached is from a book of Islamic law… it states the purpose of jihad… war to spread Islam. This is what Muhammad did in the last 12 years of his life and this is a huge part of his legacy.

Double click on the image to see a bigger version of it.
 
Verisimilitude said:
What I will support is introducing you to who God really is. Would you like me to tell you?
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Hi
You are free to try converting me to a peaceful Catholic, that is the right of every person believing in a revealed religion of any faith/denomination/religion to do it with rational, reasonable and logical arguments. But then you have to give the same rights to the person you are addressing to . On equality basis everybody is welcome, in fact that is most desirable.
Please introduce me to your God if it is different from GodAllahYHWH, if it is the same even then it is good to praise the unblemished GodAllahYHWH most of the times.
Sometimes ago I started a thread perhaps in this sub-forum on Attributes of God or Catholic God, please locate it and we would discuss it there, if possible or start an new one on Attributes of CatholicGod. You are most welcome.
Thanks
 
Rodrigo_Bivar said:
Hard to believe it, isn’t it, MelanieAnne,

But this teaching does exist. You just haven’t looked in the right place. Perhaps my sarcasm is misplaced. But I assure you this teaching does exist.
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I’m sorry, I don’t believe this is the teaching of Jesus as recorded in the Bible.

If you are quoting some other “scripture” not included in the Christian canon, then it is irrelevant.
 
The relevancy is that the past atrocities of Christians can never be traced back to the teachings of Jesus Christ.

In contrast:

Muhammad commanded Muslims to commit atrocities against disbelievers - which they do.

So, when we compare atrocities of Christians and Muslims, we have to bear in mind the fundamental teachings of the founders of their respective religions.

Christians do evil IN SPITE of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Muslims do evil BECAUSE of the teachings of Muhammad.

I’m an atheist and even I can see this. Can you, Greg27?
 
french said:
Another one would be the concept that Jesus is not God, nor the Son of God. This was a belief that khadija held. Khadija was a memmber of a breakoff sect of Catholicism. They also believed that Catholics worshipped the Blessed Mother
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Hi
We are not finished yet, we are in a course of a peaceful dialogue, meanwhile I am listening.
You give a new yet good information if that is correct that Khadija was a Catholic previously before she convertedo to Islam, she was the first among ladies to covert to Islam; we love Khadija so that is going to streghthen our peaceful endeavor even more. Could you please tell me as to what breakoff sect of Catholicism she belonged to? Very interesting indeed!
Thanks
 
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